Don Catlin: Everyone's doping and WADA can't do anything about it

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Brwned, Aug 5, 2017.

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Do you believe doping is widespread in football, as in all other major sports?

  1. Doping is widespread in all major sports, including football

    614 vote(s)
    69.3%
  2. Doping is widespread in some major sports, but football isn't one of them

    210 vote(s)
    23.7%
  3. Doping is not a significant issue in most major sports

    62 vote(s)
    7.0%
  1. Aug 5, 2017
    #1

    Brwned Have you ever been in love before?

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    We've heard it all before, but I thought this was one of the most explicit and damning statements on the culture of doping. It's a line taken straight from the documentary just out on Netflix, Icarus. It's not the most coherent documentary but for anyone interested in the subject, it has a remarkable story to tell.

    As a bit of background, here's a quick wiki bio on Don Catlin:
    To bring it back onto football, the argument is that if there was any issues with football it would inevitably have come out by now...the reality is it has, from two very credible sources in this documentary alone. Don Catlin is very clear that this happens across the board, and we're hearing directly from the Russian whistleblower that he has e-mails from the Russian minister of sport that explicitly mentions positive tests from footballers being swapped out for clean samples. We also have stories going back to the Mighty Magyars in in the 50s, La Grande Inter in the 60s...but in the modern game it is very quiet, and none of these stories were really major scandals at the time or in hindsight.

    It's easy to say this is just one man, and this is just the Russians. The test of his credibility is the fact that people the lead scientists at WADA, the IOC, the IAAF are all sitting in this meeting, gobsmacked at the evidence presented and embarassed to be associated with it, and they use it as a primary source in the sanctions placed upon these athletes.

    My take on things is the evidence is pretty conclusive, but opinions among football fans are still fairly split. Soooo my question is:
    1. Do you believe doping is widespread in football, as in all other major sports? (poll added)
    2. If so, how is it that no major scandal has broke in a sport that touches billions of people around the world?
    3. If so, why don't we care more as fans?
  2. Aug 5, 2017
    #2

    izec Full Member

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    1. Yes

    2. Money?

    I was always of the opinion that footballers dope too and that it matters. People always argue in football it woildnt be as important as in other sports due to the fact that the sport is different, but in the current culture, it plays a bigger role than assumed.

    Cycling for example doesnt generate money like football, plenty of people have an interest to keep doping away from football.
  3. Aug 5, 2017
    #3

    Womp Full Member

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    1. Yes, but I wanna tell myself no. If it does, not nearly as big as it use to be imo.
    2. $$$$$$$
  4. Aug 5, 2017
    #4

    Nick7 Full Member

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    Yeah I believe it's widespread in football like all sports. I think there will be a huge scandal eventually but I think money and corruption protects the players. I don't really care until it's proven, then I'll be disappointed but ultimately I watch football for entertainment and I don't think it will diminish my entertainment.
  5. Aug 5, 2017
    #5

    Borden Full Member

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    Nope.
  6. Aug 5, 2017
    #6

    duffer Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's

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    Probably and I don't care at all.

    I wanna see my sportsmen pumped full of everything if it means a better spectacle.
  7. Aug 5, 2017
    #7

    RORY65 Full Member

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    I would be very surprised if it's not absolutely rife but, as has been said, the money in the sport and the fact that I don't think anyone wants it to emerge or to accept it as reality is why it has been kept under the wraps. The documentary isn't perfect but it's really engaging.
  8. Aug 5, 2017
    #8

    Kag Full Member

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    I think doping occurs in every major sport, in part due to the money involved and a relentless will to win. Doping controllers are fighting against products that are not yet been banned, yet performance-enhancing all the same. When these products end up on the list, the doctors are already ahead of the game again.
  9. Aug 5, 2017
    #9

    goin4glory Full Member

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    Why would football be any different? It's more likely actually given how much money is at stake.
  10. Aug 5, 2017
    #10

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    I suspect most teams that finish above us of doping.
  11. Aug 5, 2017
    #11

    AlecHDR Angry, incoherent heterosexual slob

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    Widespread. Probably all footballers dope (except Mata)
  12. Aug 5, 2017
    #12

    AndyJ1985 Full Member

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    Of course it's widespread.
  13. Aug 5, 2017
    #13

    RedSky likes to kick 10-year-olds

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    Has to be doping in football. It's too big of a sport for there not be any doping. Personally i'd want those that have done it caught and punished. If it's wide spread at a club then punish the club by demoting them a few tiers in the league and if that means they get in financial trouble then so be it.
  14. Aug 5, 2017
    #14

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

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    I don't think it is widespread the way it is in cycling.

    More common than the 'lone wolves' here and there the footballing world wants us to believe it is limited to? yes.
  15. Aug 5, 2017
    #15

    Revan Full Member

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    This is where I am at it too.
  16. Aug 5, 2017
    #16

    Brightonian Full Member

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    It's in football, clearly. I believe it's much less widespread in football than in sports like athletics or cycling. The reason for that is also my answer to question three: doping is much less useful in football than in more straightforwardly physical sports like athletics or cycling. Of course systematic doping would give a team or a player an advantage... but not an insurmountable one.

    If you told me that the Barca team 2009-2011 (not an accusation just a hypothetical example) were doping, I'd agree that it probably helped them but that it certainly couldn't be seen as the main or even a major factor in their success. Their high work rate was only a small part of their superiority to all rivals in that period - tactical and technical superiority were the real engine. And a similarly high work rate is also something that's been replicated by enough other teams in enough other eras to suggest that it wouldn't only be achievable by doping. So a revelation like that would discredit that team and undermine their achievements but it wouldn't fundamentally weaken my faith in the validity of the sport the way it does with athletics or cycling.
  17. Aug 5, 2017
    #17

    Arbitrium Full Member

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    If everyone's doing it, what's the problem?
  18. Aug 5, 2017
    #18

    duffer Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's

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    The term "doping" is is a bit subjective. Is getting injected with a shit load of cortisone week after week "doping"? I'd argue it was certainly a performance enhancing drug.
  19. Aug 5, 2017
    #19

    Akshay Moderator

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    I think it's far less an issue in football than in other sports (like athletics, cycling etc). I especially don't think it's happening in the main club leagues in Europe. Probably some national sides use it and happens more in smaller leagues.
  20. Aug 5, 2017
    #20

    Brwned Have you ever been in love before?

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    The physical boost you get from doping doesn't just mean you can run more, it means that you can execute technical and tactical moves at a high level at over for a longer period than you otherwise would through the prevention of fatigue. We know intuitively that the more tired you get, the less effective you are at doing the fundamentals of football. It stands to reason that limiting the level of fatigue that sets in well therefore allow players to perform at their physical, mental, technical and tactical peak for longer periods. If you remove that from the Barcelona team they become an entirely different outfit altogether.

    I agree in the sense that I don't see it as cheating if it's a level playing field, but there's a significant caveat here: the Russian anti-doping scientist made it clear there are levels of doping that goes on. At London 2012 for example, he estimates that 50% of the Russian athletes were on a special program.

    Excluding that, the main issue I see is that the direct impact it has on athletes' short-term and long-term health and well-being. If we genuinely had a culture which repudiated doping, then the athletes would undoubtedly live longer, healthier lives. Surely that's more important than the elite standards of sport.
  21. Aug 5, 2017
    #21

    SirMattBugsby Full Member

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    Although I agree with you, there are certain teams I really hope aren't doping. Spurs, for example, or Liverpool, or teams like them whose game is based on manic pressing.

    The game is getting faster and any edge counts, even in a team sport.
  22. Aug 5, 2017
    #22

    11101 Full Member

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    1. Yes. I am convinced Barcelona and Spain were at it in the late 2000s.

    2. Too much money. Think the way Lance Armstrong was protected for so long, but multiply it by about a million.

    3. As long as the spectacle works, why would we? Does anyone ever really care that much about doping scandals?
  23. Aug 5, 2017
    #23

    The Cat Full Member

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    The Russian team that beat Wales in the Euro 2004 playoff didn't receive any punishment whatsoever.

    Titov tested positive for an anti-fatigue drug and not even the Court of Arbitration punished the team.

    With such lax decisions there seems little to discourage certain players.

    The drug in question was the same that resulted in Russian atheletes being stripped of their medals at the 1996 Olympics.

    Titov received a year's ban but the team got nothing at all.
  24. Aug 5, 2017
    #24

    Dante Turns into Billy Blaggs when drunk

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  25. Aug 5, 2017
    #25

    podurban2 Full Member

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    Haha, love your view.
  26. Aug 5, 2017
    #26

    kps88 Full Member

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    Find it hard to believe players knowingly taking illegal substances is a widespread problem. What I do imagine happening is clubs constantly pushing the boundaries of what is considered legal to try and gain an edge.
  27. Aug 5, 2017
    #27

    welshmanc75 Full Member

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    1. There's doping in football but nowhere near the level of other sports although I think a lot of people would've liked to have seen the true outcome of the Fuentes case. Personally I think recreational drug use is far more widespread in football.

    2. Sheer ineptitude of the governing bodies. I may be mistaken but didn't it take years for FIFA/UEFA to adopt WADA guidelines? Then you have the FA and their totally inconsistent outcomes on drugs. Rio 8 month ban for missed test (granted he was foolish) to a lesser ban for those who have actually failed tests.

    3. Football fans are not made aware of most drugs offences. Again down to inconsistencies with governing bodies.
  28. Aug 5, 2017
    #28

    Kentonio Full Member

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    :lol:
  29. Aug 5, 2017
    #29

    Buchan has whacked the hammer to Roswell

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    I find it extraordinary that fans of megarich sports such as football, basketball, American football, tennis etc. refuse to even contemplate drug use being rife in their respective sports - sports where absolute fortunes beyond your wildest dreams can be earned - and think it's confined to obscure, ill-funded, barely-professional sports such as wrestling, pole-vaulting and high-jumping.

    It's nauseatingly naive.
  30. Aug 5, 2017
    #30

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    People become conspiracy theorists about this subject. No one can keep secrets so it is really hard to sweep things under the rug. Corruption usually happens right in front of our faces.
  31. Aug 5, 2017
    #31

    Kazi Full Member

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  32. Aug 5, 2017
    #32

    Carolina Red Full Member

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    What exactly is meant by "doping"?
  33. Aug 5, 2017
    #33

    Brwned Have you ever been in love before?

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    You find it hard to believe it's happenning in sport in general, despite the wealth of evidence, you find it hard to believe it's happening in football...despite there being no obvious reason it would be exempt from it?
  34. Aug 5, 2017
    #34

    Werd. New Member

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  35. Aug 5, 2017
    #35

    RAVred New Member

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    Doping is common in sports. PED use is prevalent not only in sports but also media/movies for roles, but thats another topic.



    The fact is theres too much money and too much drive in players and a will to win (Cristiano is a prime example of someone who I think has ultimately benefited from doping and has an immense will to win).



    The drive, competitiveness, and motivation a lot of athletes have, especially at the very top (e.g. Armstrong, and top footballers who I do think dope) is probably a bigger motivator than money.




    Personally I dont have much of a problem with it, almost every institute, from College level teams (in America), to professional top level teams, have a systematic way to dope and hide it. Its a choice these people make, and it isnt a choice that is only offered to a few people, its a widespread phenomenon and anyone can dope if they wish to... Hence those that dope are still the best in their respective field for me.



    Which is why I find it always childish when Messi is accused of benefiting off of HGH (Which he did, but he was legitimately impaired in development), when its clear as day to anyone thats followed the journey of Ronaldo and maybe even Bale, that they have benefited a lot from doping as well. As many other athletes probably have as well.

    Ronaldos body transformation, in my opinion, is a blatantly obvious example. And I dont condemn it, and hes still my favourite player of the 21st century.
  36. Aug 5, 2017
    #36

    kps88 Full Member

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    I never said it wasn't happening.

    If you believe players knowingly taking illegal substances is widespread, the feck have they managed to contain it so well all these years? Just imagine the scale of it - the number of players and staff involved would far exceed any other sport. It's possible a lot of the players wouldn't even know for sure if they were taking illegal substances.
  37. Aug 5, 2017
    #37

    Fully Fledged Full Member

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    For me it depends if they are giving them to kids.

    If an adult takes a drug whether it's performance enhancing or recreational that's there business as far as I'm concerned. If you start giving them to kids though to make them bigger, stronger or faster that's totally out of order.
  38. Aug 5, 2017
    #38

    DomesticTadpole Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.

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    Especially if it is causing health problems like heart and cancer down the line. I would hate that on my conscience.
  39. Aug 5, 2017
    #39

    Fully Fledged Full Member

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    Exactly.
  40. Aug 5, 2017
    #40

    Hugh Jass Full Member

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    I dont think it is as widespread in football as other sports. The reason being it is not as beneficial to dope in football as it is in cycling or athletics.