Downplaying Fatigue

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by TheReligion, Mar 19, 2017.

  1. Mar 20, 2017

    Dobbs Full Member

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    So the only way to achieve the results so far is to pick the players exactly as Mourinho has.

    How can you possibly claim to know this?

    There's all sorts of variable selections that could have been tried that may or may not have improved our position.

    We're being told a 4pm KO today could make all the difference. If a performance is that sensitive, that easy to affect, you can't dismiss the impact of dropping/resting/selecting certain players might have had.

    I think he's got plenty of stuff right but this whole fatigue thing is bollocks. It's true though that if a public figure says something enough some people will start to believe it.
  2. Mar 20, 2017

    Cantonagotmehere New Member

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    And they played well.
  3. Mar 20, 2017

    sglowrider Against Oral Equality

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    I seem to have the impression when Jose rotates the team like 6-8 at a time, the performance doesnt drop as much as when Fergie did it? (Though I think the team's overall performance was higher under Fergie.)
  4. Mar 20, 2017

    RedPnutz Full Member

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    You forgot Psychologists, body language experts and also a fair number of elite managers amongst us as well.
  5. Mar 20, 2017

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    that goes without saying! Don't forget the einsteins :)

    One guy said on here about Mikhith regarding a picture of him on the treadmill "I noticed that he had his thumb and index finger together which shows he is insecure and lacking in confidence because that is an affirmation trigger"

    I crap you not.
  6. Mar 20, 2017

    JON.B Sloop

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    No point moaning about fatigue if you don't utilise your squad properly. Jose has played some players to death when he could have taken them off in games, players like Pogba and Zlatan spring to mind. Young barely featured but has now played quite a lot recently, the likes of Shaw and Schweinsteiger have been under-utilised when they could have featured more.
  7. Mar 20, 2017

    Bastian Full Member

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    I think trauma has a much wider reach than merely war. Shellshocked can be, and is used in everyday language unless people are really sensitive to its use. However, if we chose not to get caught up in details here then what I was getting at is that the players went from being a top class team with a top class manager and the future looking promising to being managed by a completely incompetent manager who by himself destroyed the morale from which they are only just beginning to recover. This is all of course off topic.
  8. Mar 20, 2017

    Leroy The Red Full Member

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    1. Like I said, there are usually four constants, Valencia, Pogba, Herrera and Zlatan. The rest of your opening post contains a lot of untruth though.

    I like how you say
    when Valencia, Herrera, Pogba and Zlatan between them all season have been out injured for about 2 games. Up until Pogba's injury anyway. It's other players that have been getting the regular injuries. In case you haven't noticed, those four players have superb fitness levels and there's not really been a massive dip in their performance levels other than maybe Pogba recently so Mourinho has been within his rights to play them as much as possible.

    Again, untruth here, we rested a lot of players against Northampton in the LGECUP, Valencia, Herrera, Pogba and Zlatan were ALL rested for the January Reading and Wigan FA Cup games, meaning they got two weekends off in that month. Only Herrera started against Blackburn. The game against City was a game Mourinho had to win, thus the strong team selection. And there is no point getting to a Quarter final and Semi Final and resting players unless you're facing really poor opposition which we didn't. Hence the strong team selections in those games.

    Again Europa League, if you remember against Feyenoord, Mourinho made changes and we lost. In fact we lost 2 of our first 4 Europa League games which meant there was no margin for error and we had to win our remaining games. Also not sure why you're suggesting at this point the League is more important than Europa League. Why exactly is finishing 4th and qualifying for the CL more of a priority than WINNING AN ACTUAL CUP and qualifying for the CL? Especially when you look at the teams left in the Europa League and our remaining league fixtures, make no mistake about it we've got a far better chance of winning the Europa League then finishing 4th. Also complaining about Mkhitaryan playing against St Etienne? really? like really? He's had about 3 months off this season. We drew 1-1 in Rostov, why exactly was Mourinho then going to make wholesale changes and rest key players for the second leg?

    2. I agree that Luke Shaw should have seen more game time for sure but there are mitigating circumstances for that, though Martial hasn't warranted playing every week because his performances and attitude during games haven't been of the level they were last season. Rashford and Lingard have played a lot of time under Mourinho so not sure how that fits in with that crap you said about hurting our youths long term prospects. Seems like agenda sort of stuff to me.

    My gripe with Mourinho is his complaining, his moaning is small time IMO. I've said this a few times but I think it gives the players an excuse. it's like you're putting something in their mind before they even step onto the field that they are handicapped because of fatigue. The thing is, he has rotated a lot and there are statistics to back it up no matter how much you and others want to invent things and suggest there's been little or no rotation. I think he's handled the squad fantastically well. Players who have been poor have been dropped (early season Rooney, Fellaini, Martial), he's got his core of 4/5 players that play most games and that is how it should be. I do think Shaw should have seen a lot more game time but only because we've had basically no solid LB all season but then Shaw clearly hasn't helped himself with the twitter situation and the fact he has looked poor whenever called upon. It's up to Shaw to gain Mourinho's trust really.
  9. Mar 20, 2017

    sunama Baghdad Bob

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    After yesterday's game, there was one guy who said that Jose should be sacked. Others who said that our style of play was bad/terrible/negative. Basically a lot of negativity, doom and gloom.
    The fact is that we won 3-1. Job done. That's basically why Jose walked off the dug out, before the final whistle, because he knew the team achieved their objective and that there was nothing else to see.
    I think a lot of fans have become spoilt, expecting us to hammer teams after a hectic schedule, just because we are managed by Jose.
    Can you imagine what it'll be like next season, when we are genuinely challenging for the title from match day 1? "We only won the game 4-0. We expected 6-0. Jose Out!!!" :lol:
  10. Mar 20, 2017

    We need an rvn Full Member

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    To be honest I think it's the same old life story that one irrational person says something and 500+ sane people get wound up about it when the best thing to do is ignore the fool who's spoken with a brain fart.

    Most on here understand how crazy our schedule is, how it's only Jose's first season and he still needs a good 4 players or so to get the team to play how he wants, how Europa league screws with the whole PL season etc
  11. Mar 20, 2017

    sunama Baghdad Bob

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    Berating D.Moyes for being crap at his job is NEVER off topic. I don't ever want to see a MUFC fan hold back criticism when it comes to D.Moyes. As we are seeing, he set us back at least 3 years and probably more.
    If I had my way, I would berate D.Moyes in every single post I wrote and even then it wouldn't be enough. :D
  12. Mar 20, 2017

    sunama Baghdad Bob

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    Except it wasn't just one person.
    The following posts have been extracted from the first page of the post match thread:

    ...and these comments were just from page 1. Had I gone to the match day thread, I could find far worse comments.
    And just to remind people, the above comments were after a game, which saw us win 3-1, without our 3 best players (DDG, excepted) and after having a ridiculously hectic schedule.
  13. Mar 20, 2017

    MrPooni Full Member

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    I take it you missed the last 30 minutes of their game on Sunday.
  14. Mar 20, 2017

    Andersons Dietician Full Member

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    When they were going end to end?
  15. Mar 20, 2017

    Revan Full Member

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    Did you watched the match? We were playing far better than them, and they were doing nothing. Until Mourinho decided to go with 6 men in defense and invite pressure, which almost cost us the match.

    There is no downplaying fatigue, but we lost the control in the match the moment when Mourinho replaced Mata with Rojo.
  16. Mar 20, 2017

    Shez Full Member

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    Its his prerogative and I understand needing to rest some people. Would however love if he would keep a few young people on the bench and give them a run out in situations like being 2-0 up against Boro. 30 mins against a toothless side... how much harm can throwing in a kid in place of Mata do. Have a little more faith in them I say
  17. Mar 20, 2017

    Dobbs Full Member

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    If you're reminding posters of the circumstances I think it's only fair you mention them all. It was Middlesborough, they have worst attack in the league, we were worse after subs, getting nervy until Valdes mistake, huge squad capable of handling games etc etc.
  18. Mar 20, 2017

    ti vu Full Member

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    This is only half of what happened at that time.

    Another half is that Boro added Traore before Rojo sub; who can easily take on 2 or more players out of position with his run; and Gestede who is very great aerial threat; Mata also tired too. He played full 90 minutes Thursday. So if we didn't sub Rojo in: Traore could easily take on Young & dragged Jones out of position that left us with 2 vs 2 in our between Bailly Smalling vs Negredo Gestede. Rojo provided cover for Young, while allowing us option of outnumbering Boro in our own box 3 vs 2. The sub makes sense especially we're comfortable 2-0 up front & outnumber their forwards with their only hope was crossing. How our CBs were a mess is another story. Traore sub was a success with how he despite lacking end product could drove our defense line back allowing them to bombard cross into our box. There are 2 teams in the match.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  19. Mar 21, 2017

    Kraftwerker Formerly RedAddict

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    There's also a theory that if you tell a player he's tired, he'll think he's tired.
  20. Mar 21, 2017

    ti vu Full Member

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    But the manager can also personally (reasonable to actually) tell the player that they are winner they can go pass limit, can't he? So it's more about whether the manager win the player's mind or they lose to the tiredness caused by the world aka us against the world mentality. Psychological war fair there.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  21. Mar 21, 2017

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Essentially the squad of last season? So ibra, Pogba, Bailey and Mkhitarian weren't added to our squad? The manager didn't spend 150 million pounds or thereabouts and can use those sort of excuses? Really?

    Also, with a squad like ours 48 games isnt that big a deal. Like us City aren't struggling because of fatigue. It's because they can't defend (like we can't attack).

    And people can hype our season up due to us being in competitions but at the moment the fact is were chasing 4th. I'd be delighted with the Europa league like I was with the fa cup last season. But there's no need to sugercoat us having what as of now is an average season to be some great achievement. Last season too we won a relevant cup and finished level with the team in 4th. Noone cares about being close to European qualification positions. For a club of United's stature not qualifying is failing rather qualification being this brilliant achievement.
  22. Mar 21, 2017

    We need an rvn Full Member

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    we just had a lot of people with brain farts that day. Perhaps some just expect United still to storm away to 5-0 victories with ease every week, not realising (and this isn't jose's fault) that a lot of the players bought in post Fergie were not good enough. I fully expect us to start doing that occasionally next year, but I'll be darn happy with a win no matter what if it means winning the league again
  23. Mar 21, 2017

    BigBebe Full Member

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    Are you the ref?
    The person at the club who is most fatigued is Jose himself.

    That is why for once, I am happy that there is an international break so that he can get a bit of time to recharge his batteries and prepare for the run in.
  24. Mar 21, 2017

    Dobbs Full Member

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    I think that's a really good point, not thought of it like that before.

    The guy definitely looks like he could do with a break before he slips any further into the world against me mentality.
  25. Mar 21, 2017

    Salman Bin Ahmed Banned

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    Absolutely. People forget that, But when I pointed it out in the newbie section, I got a lot of stick about this issue. Apparently, People think being a manager of Man Utd is way too easy than compared to the 9 to 5 jobs which we might all be experienced with. Just imagine, Jose is usually at the training ground between 7am-8am and doesn't leave until 6pm. Dont we all call that hard work and strenuous?

    Additionally, it annoys the crap out of me when people say " Oh it didn't happen in the SAF days " talking about defending against a team like Borough while leading 2-0 with 20 mins to go. Well, to all those who might be old enough to remember, SAF too did defend like that many times in his time, when he felt it was a squeaky-bum time of the season. Also, another unfair comparison of Jose is that SAF's team would attack more or score more or dominate more, but in reality, this is a completely different league to what SAF was used to.

    Back in the days, there was just one main opponent to Man Utd. Be it, Blackburn, New Castle, Liverpool, or Arsenal for many years. There were no 3 big teams, Until Chelsea came in and there were no 4 big teams until Man City were bought by the shieks. But today? We have 6 top class teams, Yes, Arsenal are the worst of the 6 right now with all their turmoil, but they are certainly a "big" team.

    If I want to be really tough on SAF, Man city was bought in Aug 2008, the only player they bought in the last window was a silly brazilian player who I dont even remember right now. So lets ignore the 2008-2009 season but ever since 2009-10 season when Premier League became a big 4 league with Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal & Manchester United. We have only won the league twice since then and SAF retired when he did it the last time. For me, the league has changed incredibly in the last few seasons, and we cannot, should not, compare Jose with SAF.

    To Jose's credit, he won the league when the League had a big 5 or big 6 in 2014-2015. So, the record is there for all to see. I trust Jose to take us where we all want to be, And I also want us to realize this is 2017 with league having top 6 teams. We wont win the league every 2 -3 years anymore, and we wont be second placed team, if we dont win the league.

    And finally, Yes. I want a bit of less moaning about fixture issue, or the traveling or the Europe and everything else from Jose. Yes, I want to buy the best players in the world. But, can Jose take us to the top? Without a shadow of doubt if he can just control his emotions a bit more.
  26. Mar 21, 2017

    OldTrevil Full Member

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    Mourinho's complains actually remind me of Fergie and weirdly increase my confidence in him.
  27. Mar 21, 2017

    Seveneric Full Member

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    Ah yes, so this is where we are at now. Downplaying Fergie's achievement to excuse Mourinho. Cute.
  28. Mar 21, 2017

    Frank Grimes Full Member

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    A lot of our players should be relatively fresh for run in, most in fact. Only concern I had were Zlatan, Pogba and Herrera and they will all have had a break with their suspensions and injury.
  29. Mar 21, 2017

    Andersons Dietician Full Member

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    I'd like to point out that most of those say good until Jose made the change to 7nin the back. That is what people are complaining about and rightly so. There was never any need for it and the tactic invited unneeded pressure.
  30. Mar 21, 2017

    TheReligion Abusive

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    The team against Middleborough at the weekend had only Eric Bailly in the starting XI. It's LvGs squad and will be until the summer.

    Not sure who is hyping the season up. It's just being realistic.
  31. Mar 22, 2017

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    And the season isn't the game against middlesborough. We've spent plenty. A manager doesn't need 11 of his own players to achieve things. Even "Van Gaal's team" wasn't actually Van Gaal's team, in that case.

    Lots of people are. Reading some of these posted it sounds like we've achieved quite a lot this season.

    I'm realistic alright. I didn't expect to win much this season. But that doesn't mean I'm going to praise Mourinho for anything and everything.
  32. Mar 22, 2017

    ti vu Full Member

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    "Mourinho team" is gonna win the league this season (would take FA Cup too)... :wenger:
  33. Mar 22, 2017

    Salman Bin Ahmed Banned

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    No. Its just being real and being more nuanced. You tell me if am mistaken in any of my points mentioned.
  34. Mar 22, 2017

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    :lol:
  35. Mar 22, 2017

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    It's amusing because actually the competition for the title has actually gotten worse. Fergie had to deal with top sides like wengers arsenal, mourinho's Chelsea and an excellent man city. The current lot simply don't match up. Where the PL is stronger now is from 4th to 10th, possibly. So it's our own fault that were bad enough to have to compete with those teams. SAF ensured we never had to and only the best sides threatened us rather than sprinting far away form us as is happening.
  36. Mar 22, 2017

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    6 top class teams who? Who are you including in that? A hapless arsenal? Or a goalless united? These teams are good at best. SAF dominated the PL when he was challenged by Blackburn and he dominated a league filled with city, arsenal and Chelsea. His record was phenomenal in both legs. If you think he'd have us sat in 6th for ages after spending 150 million, you're kidding yourself. The excuse you should be using for Jose is that it's his first season. But there's no chance SAF would be having this season if we swapped them.
  37. Mar 22, 2017

    Massive Spanner Thinks Geoff Shreeves has one

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    Indeed ^

    SAF would have walked the league last year with that squad and would be right up there with Chelsea this season, too. The man was ridiculous.

    The "top six" now are also nothing compared to the top four of 05-2010 (Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd) in terms of quality. Europe has proven that season after season.
  38. Mar 22, 2017

    dichinero Full Member

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    I find it ridiculous to compare eras like this. It almost like saying it was easy then which is just an insult to Fergie tbh. Back then it's been back then, and those that were there has to deal with what was back then. This is now. Goodness!
  39. Mar 23, 2017

    Salman Bin Ahmed Banned

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    6 Top Class teams in the league. Yes. Arsenal, like it or not played in Champions League this year and we did not. United is a top class team and it would reflect too had we finished off our chances.

    But certain things will be obviously clear. back in the days, nobody could compete with us in transfers today we have plenty of people to approach from England. back in the day we could easy get players from Tottenham when we wanted to, but today we cant.

    Things have changed in the league over the years and we just have to be honest about that. Having said that, it doesn't minimize what SAF did. He did what he could do best, which was to be a leader for this Club. won everything he could. And left us with us being champions and his head high. So all the love, admirition and love to SAF for what he did.

    But this is a different challenge, a difficult one, and one that needs more patience.
  40. Mar 23, 2017

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Playing in the CL does not make you a top team. Shakhtar Donesk are not a top team. Spurs are not a top team. Neither are Arsenal or United. The pair of them have achieved nothing of note the last 3 years (more in the case or arsenal). Barca, Madrid, Juve, Atletico and Bayern are top sides. Possibly Dortmund as well. The PL top 6 are clearly substandard compared to how teams at the top of the league used to be. Maybe Chelsea are heading towards that standard now but we'll see next season.

    We are not even close to being a top side form any angle. Your PL and United bias appears to be speaking.