Ducker: Manchester United manager's faith in youth puts Pep Guardiola in the shade

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by #07, Feb 5, 2018.

  1. Feb 5, 2018

    Oscie Full Member

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    I'd like to see more of Gomes. Hopefully if we can get a bit of a cushion for Champion League places and/or continue on in the FA Cup we'll see more of him.
  2. Feb 5, 2018

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    Pure lies. I never understand this need to invent myths about LVG just because y'all hated him and his football. Vs Palace in the fa cup final United did nothing but attack relentlessly all game long. The only reason Palace lasted so long was the truly poor finishing we had on the day. There was no "slogging" involved nor "2nd half revolt' of tactics by the players.
  3. Feb 5, 2018

    Class of 63 Full Member

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    Don't think it was that much of a gamble, playing him in a two alongside Pogba might have been though, and I don't think Huddersfield targeted Scott, more they were just kicking anybody they could get close enough to.
  4. Feb 6, 2018

    fezzerUTD New Member

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    Im not inventing myths at all. I see what I see, LVG was the worst manager (to watch) out of the 3 since SAF simple as that.
  5. Feb 6, 2018

    Murder on Zidane's Floor You'd better not kill Giroud

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    Joel and Andreas mixed up...
  6. Feb 6, 2018

    Brightonian Full Member

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    This. LVG did a bad job and a lot - not all - of the football we played under him was boring, although better than under Moyes because it was at least competent. Refusal to credit him for a number of current players in our team is probably the worst of this 'nothing he did was good' attitude. He gave us Martial, and in my opinion he's also responsible for the
    fact that Rashford and Lingard are valuable mainstays in the first team. (Lingard has come good under Jose, who deserves credit for that, but if someone less disposed to promoting from within than LVG had been here for those two seasons I doubt he'd be around at all.)
  7. Feb 6, 2018

    NW10 New Member

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    But pep was still above Jose, who had a horrible season, even finishing behind Wenger in his worst finish.

    Which youth did Jose play? Please don't say Rashford because thats like Pep using Jesus.
  8. Feb 6, 2018

    RedRom "Where's Lingard?"

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    I don't know if you saw the teamsheet for the Crystal Palace game on the last gameweek of the season or not, but that might give you a clue?
  9. Feb 6, 2018

    Irish Jet Full Member

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    Are you serious?
  10. Feb 6, 2018

    AR87 Full Member

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    In general I thought our performances in the FA Cup were actually entertaining and far more attacking than our league performances. West Ham away, Everton semis and Palace in the final were all performances where we showed ambition and created chances.

    Even in the league there were some fun matches, the 3-2 home victory over Arsenal with one of the weirdest XIs I've seen us put out comes to mind, but largely our league level of play was dour.
  11. Feb 6, 2018

    Decomposing In Paris Full Member

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  12. Feb 6, 2018

    Decomposing In Paris Full Member

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    Are you serious? I could maybe understand a comparison between Martial and Jesus, but Rashford?
  13. Feb 6, 2018

    Schmiznurf Full Member

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    Lingard and Rashford both played a lot. The difference between Rashford and Jesus is Rashford is home grown, Jesus was bought by Pep to use.
  14. Feb 6, 2018

    GiddyUp Full Member

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    They had a Klopp watch camera for Klopps first game in charge. The saddest fecking thing ever. British football media and nearly everyone involved are disgustingly bad.
  15. Feb 6, 2018

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    Only Chelsea had a better season than United last year. I know you support Arsenal and top 4 > anything else but football is in part also about winning trophies. By winning Europa, we had the same output as every other team above us except obviously Chelsea and Arsenal.

    And that last statement is idiotic.
  16. Feb 6, 2018

    robinamicrowave Wanted to be Bran, ended up being littlefinger

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    This is a little disingenuous. City do have a problem of bringing youth players into the first team, of that there's no question, but Rashford's a special case and had already established himself as a useful squad player by the time Mourinho took over. I'm not sure he should be included in this list. Plus, the average age of the United players they've chosen there is 20.0, whereas the City players they've selected have an average age of 18.4 - that should make a difference in relation to first team exposure. Special cases like Rooney, Rashford and Milner aside, how many eighteen-year-olds have played more than 500 minutes for a British top four club in recent years?

    Also, considering the article in the OP references Jesse Lingard as an example of Mourinho promoting youth - Lingard who's now 25 and playing at his peak - the average age of the examples selected by Squakwa and the Telegraph is 22.5. So coming back to the quoted graph, I'm surprised it's being used an example of our failings in relation to promoting youth players. Players like Pablo Maffeo (242 mins for City, 1604 mins for Girona), Aleix Garcia (368 mins for City, 571 mins for Girona) and Manu Garcia (122 mins for City, 1859 mins for NAC Breda) would be much better examples. Their average is 20.0 as well.
  17. Feb 6, 2018

    ti vu Full Member

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    Remove Rashford. Then we're still up with 3 players.

    Your whole argument may not be wrong, but it's an excuse at this point in time. We all know when the stake is high, coaches tend to stick with experience. This used to be the stick to beat Mourinho by disregarding logic. Why should logic get in the way here? At least you can get prop to Ducker for being consistent

    Also you had that Kelechi kid sold when he used to be compared to Rashford. In your word a special case.
  18. Feb 6, 2018

    robinamicrowave Wanted to be Bran, ended up being littlefinger

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    Oh yeah, I'm not turning this into a competition about whose kids have played more minutes. You're ahead on that matter. But the examples they've used aren't really comparable.
  19. Feb 6, 2018

    ti vu Full Member

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    Those comparison always being like that. Just anything fits the narrative. Just saying it's nothing to try to justify because others already going through these kind of unfair treatment before. What goes around comes around. It's your club's turn. That's all to it
  20. Feb 6, 2018

    tenpoless Full Member

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    But you are. :houllier:
    Bringing up loaned players and their minutes.
  21. Feb 6, 2018

    robinamicrowave Wanted to be Bran, ended up being littlefinger

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    Sorry, I think you've misinterpreted what my original post meant. City have a problem with bringing youth players into the first team - it's a problem United have too, but just not as much of one. Of that there is no doubt. But the City players selected by Squawka on that graph are all much younger than their United counterparts, so they end up not being counterparts at all. If the graph had included Pablo Maffeo, Aleix Garcia and Manu Garcia then the average age of City's "youth graduates" would be closer to the United players chosen for the graph. City would still be behind on minutes played - because, as I've said, we have a problem with forming a path to the first team for academy kids - but the variables would just be more balanced.
  22. Feb 6, 2018

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    Aleix Garcia and Pablo Maffeo signed for City at 17. Neither can be classed as youth graduates. Would be a bit like us claiming Cristiano Ronaldo was a youth graduate.

    General acceptance is a youth graduate joins latest at 16 or younger which is why Manu Garcia is counted.

    Also the graph is counting minutes for the club this season. Aleix Garcia hasn't played a single minute for City this season. There's no point bringing up loan games as Chelsea would be the kings of bringing players through if that was the case.
  23. Feb 6, 2018

    SqualorVictoria New Member

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    In fact, Maffeo was 16, too.
  24. Feb 6, 2018

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    Yeah you're right. Thought he joined in 2015 but he joined at the same time as Manu Garcia in 2013. Still neither have played a single minute for City this season why I presume was what the Squaka chart was getting at.
  25. Feb 6, 2018

    Inter Yer Nan Full Member

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    But didn't Pep teach Messi, Iniesta & Xavi how to walk and then play football?
  26. Feb 6, 2018

    mav_9me Full Member

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    I believe the accepted criteria is having played in academy. For how long I don't know cuz somebody like Pogba for us is counted as an academy grad. But on the other side Fabregas for Arsenal also played a couple of games for academy if I am not mistaken. Would he count? Probably not.

    Maybe @Mr. MUJAC can clarify?
  27. Feb 6, 2018

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    Generally sign a pro contract at 17 which is what I was basing it on.
  28. Feb 6, 2018

    robinamicrowave Wanted to be Bran, ended up being littlefinger

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    I see your point about them only counting minutes from this season. That did slip my mind. But if anything, you've almost made my point for me. There's currently no method of comparison between City and United's youth development programmes that would be balanced because both programmes are at different stages. We signed Garcia and Maffeo at 17, you're right - so how can their progress be compared to players you've had since they were children?

    It's ultimately a pointless exercise conjured up by bored journalists who've got nothing better to do. There's no title race to talk about and no animosity between Pep and Jose to stoke up, so they pick on the fact that we named six substitutes instead of seven - missing the point that we named six substitutes because we currently have six first-team injuries (Mendy, Delph, Stones, Sané, Silva, Jesus), the youth player who would have featured is also injured (Foden) and that our U23s had played a game the night before. It's not that much of a story, and if it had happened in a 3pm game I doubt anyone would have raised an eyebrow.

    But back to the argument at hand: the youth players who've featured for City this season are much younger than their United counterparts and are therefore, on average, much further behind in their growth, because our academy is also further behind in development. There's nothing much worth comparing. Foden and Diaz look the most likely to "make it" with City in the future but they're several stages behind the likes of Rashford (who Squawka compared them with) and even further behind the likes of Lingard (who the Telegraph mentioned), so expecting them to rack up the same amount of minutes is unreasonable.

    It's like expecting a mid-table side without European football to use their reserve goalkeeper as much as a team in four competitions, and accusing them of failing to utilise a valuable asset. We do have a problem with ensuring youth players get the minutes required to transition into the first team, but using the players we currently have on the books as the examples in this argument is misguided. I'd understand if they looked at those who are slightly older, like Marcos Lopes or Denis Suarez, or the players we have out on loan in Holland and Spain and Scotland, but not the ones who wouldn't make it anywhere else just yet either.
  29. Feb 6, 2018

    Smores Full Member

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    "It's not fair to accuse city of not playing youth, our youth are all shit"
  30. Feb 6, 2018

    robinamicrowave Wanted to be Bran, ended up being littlefinger

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    Except that's not the point I'm making at all. We've had some very talented young players slip through our hands out of nothing but negligence and a lack of willing to try them out (some of whom I've mentioned, if you'd cared to read my post beyond the first two or three lines). City's management of young players since the takeover has been somewhat troubling, and I wouldn't be surprised if Foden, Diaz, Maffeo, etc. never made it. But comparing our 17 and 18-year-olds to your 20, 21 and 25-year-olds isn't a reasonable line of argument.
  31. Feb 6, 2018

    Smores Full Member

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    It's comparing our academy products with yours. I'm sure you do have academy products older than 17/18.
  32. Feb 6, 2018

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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  33. Feb 6, 2018

    NW10 New Member

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    You seem a little sensitive my friend lol.

    You can pretend finishing 7th was and winning the europa cup was a good season but the fact is this is manchester united and the standard of the club means 7th is unacceptable.

    Me supporting Arsenal changes nothing I have no bias , Arsenal and Manchester United are not on the same level and Arsenal have been embarrassingly bad in recent years. Wenger still finished above Jose and won the Fa cup in his worst season ever.
  34. Feb 6, 2018

    Buchan has whacked the hammer to Roswell

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    You're right. Let's compare our 20, 21 and 25-year-old academy graduates to the ones Guardiola is selecting at City, then...
  35. Feb 6, 2018

    robinamicrowave Wanted to be Bran, ended up being littlefinger

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    We do. Most of the ones with a chance of getting first-team football are either out on loan or at other clubs because we let them go.
  36. Feb 6, 2018

    robinamicrowave Wanted to be Bran, ended up being littlefinger

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    Come again?
  37. Feb 6, 2018

    Hitchez Full Member

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    Jose's real test now is to see if he can bring though the likes of Chong and Gomes. Playing Rashford so much is a credit to him but Rashford had already shown he belonged at this level. Bringing through a player from the academy is a lot more difficult as it requires a lot more trust. He's done a decent job with Mctominay.

    Unless I'm missing someone really obvious has he brought through many player from the academy at his previous clubs? Morata? Santon??
  38. Feb 6, 2018

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    You seem a little dumb my friend "lol".

    Yeah finish 6th and winning both the Europa and League Cup probably ends up a decent enough season altogether. Two trophies and Champions League football. Only Chelsea did better domestically. If we end up finishing just 2nd and winning feck all this season, then actually last year does end up being a better season overall even if the team is better now.

    Your support of Arsenal does cloud your own judgement as for a while you lot saw Top 4 as a trophy.
  39. Feb 7, 2018

    elmo Can never have too many Eevees

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    You can compare up to 30 years old players and it’ll still make no bloody difference. There’s basically no player from your youth set up that’s currently in your first team ever since Hart left.

    City’s management of their youth has been terrible ever since the Shieks took over and Pep is just continuing the trend by going for established players rather than using the youths.
  40. Feb 7, 2018

    Needham Full Member

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    I heard it was done simultaneously in a rondo playpen.