Ducker: Manchester United manager's faith in youth puts Pep Guardiola in the shade

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by #07, Feb 5, 2018.

  1. Feb 7, 2018

    RedRom "Where's Lingard?"

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    Hart was never a youth player for them, they bought him from Shrewsbury where he was already getting first team games!
  2. Feb 7, 2018

    elmo Can never have too many Eevees

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    Makes it even worse, who’s the last one that actually played decent minutes for them?

    Stephan Ireland?
  3. Feb 7, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Maybe Richards.
  4. Feb 7, 2018

    Mr. MUJAC Talent spotter

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    The criteria is:

    1. Joined Academy before turning 18 (this is the FA rule for appearing in the FA Youth Cup)
    2. Hasn't signed professionally elsewhere
    3. Hasn't played first team elsewhere
    4. Actually played in the Academy

    Examples at Manchester United

    Shawn Goater joined at 18 but hadn't signed pro, hadn't played pro and played in our juniors = DOESNT QUALIFY AS TOO OLD
    Allenby Chilton as above
    George Vose as above

    Lee Sharpe joined at 17, hadn't signed pro, played in our juniors...BUT already played first team for Torquay United = DOESN"T QUALIFY AS ALREADY PLAYED FIRST TEAM
    Regan Poole as above (Newport County)

    Paul Pogba joined at 17, hadn't signed pro, hadn't played first team and played in our Academy = QUALIFIES AS AN ACADEMY GRADUATE
    Timothy Fosu-Mensah as above
    Reece James as above

    It doesn't matter where they came from (school, youth club, or another pro club).

    We apply the same criteria from 1932 until the present day...in that way you are comparing apples to apples.

    If Garcia and Maffeo meet those criteria then city can count them as youth products. Why? Because they helped develop them. If they went straight into city's Elite Development Squad (EDS) then they do not qualify as they didn't play in the Academy.

    Cristiano Ronaldo failed to meet all four of the criteria so would never be regarded as our youth product.
  5. Feb 7, 2018

    Mr. MUJAC Talent spotter

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    I think there are numerous lines of thought here:

    1. Minutes given to youth players in total
    2. Minutes given to youth players promoted by current manager

    Without a doubt you would get two different sets of data.

    The relevance is that City have been overshadowing United for nearly five years now with their facilities, scouting and youth set-up. Certainly their exploits in the FA Youth Cup would suggest that there are some very good players.

    So let's look at the philosophy of the club rather than by manager.

    In those five years 2013-2018 how many players have City promoted? How many minutes have they got? I don't know the answer.

    In those five years United have promoted 22 different players. I haven't counted their actual minutes but with Januzaj, McNair, Lingard, Rashford and other it would be pretty high.

    If we broke it down by manager and review actual numbers it looks like this:

    Moyes - 1
    Giggs - 2
    Van Gaal - 13
    Mourinho - 6

    But obviously with changes of manager you have to take into account existing youth players...otherwise you could have a ridiculous situation where say Ferguson resigned in 1999 but the new manager is regarded as not playing youth even though Neville, Neville, O'Shea, Brown, Scholes, Butt, Giggs, Beckham are first team regulars.

    In my opinion you have to look at it from a club and manager level.
  6. Feb 7, 2018

    mike bird Banned

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    For me youth are players who have been with us donkey years, since the age of 7, 8 or 10 years old and are basically local lads.

    On that sense, Jose has really done a fantastic job with Lingard, Rashford and McTominay.

    Pep has played none.
  7. Feb 7, 2018

    RedRom "Where's Lingard?"

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    I could never class Pogba as a true home grown player, the fact that he did play for our Academy is not the issue in my mind, the fact that he came to the club from another one at a oldish are is.
  8. Feb 7, 2018

    Rifer Full Member

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    Different clubs, different cultures.

    At Manchester United, there is that expectation (which goes with the job requirement ig) for manager to promote youth. Credits to the players for grabbing their chances well. Case of Rashford, there is Zlatan, permanent starter so Jose gave chances and play him at the wings outperforming the others. Similarly Lingard as Mkhi failed to be a regular, and McTominay eventhough there are Fellaini and Herrera. Other evidence: final game last season against Crystal plus the odd few games here and there given to Tuanzebe, TFM, Gomes, and Joel Pereira. At least the youth are given games = promoted, not just once in a blue moon. lol

    At MCity... what is this youth? Buy a young player from other club and play him a lot? eg. G. Jesus ✓.
  9. Feb 7, 2018

    Dancfc Full Member

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    Jose deserves credit for Rashford but Lingard is pushing it as he was 23 when Jose took over. He may have the mental age of a toddler but it doesn't mean he actually is one.
  10. Feb 7, 2018

    ti vu Full Member

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    Player develops at different rate than one another. Mentality is one vital aspect of football at top player. A top class player who doesn't feel up to it can perform as bad as your average PL level player. To develop player to have consistent is no easy task. Even before his uprising performance, Lingard was hated as his ceiling of performance was not very high, while mostly very limited and frustrating. For him to perform consistently at optimal level is huge improvement.
  11. Feb 7, 2018

    cyberman Full Member

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    I rate Pogba as an academy player since if he's not ours then who?
    There aren't a lot of professional players who stay and rise through a youth set-up from 8 onwards. A lot do change clubs due to circumstance so if Pogba is in limbo then a lot more are as well.
  12. Feb 8, 2018

    RedRom "Where's Lingard?"

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    Rashford, McTominay, and Gomes, for example are much more of our own developed players than Pogba.
  13. Feb 8, 2018

    AltiUn likes playing with swords after fantasies

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    But he is our academy player, he may have developed somewhere else but that was after he'd already been in our academy for a significant amount of time.
  14. Feb 8, 2018

    dbs235 Full Member

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    He started to give Foden some games who's been with City since he was about 7, then he got injured.
  15. Feb 8, 2018

    RedRom "Where's Lingard?"

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    We bought him from Le Harve, so I would give them a fair amount of credit for his initial development, of which we just added to it, and then Juve honed it to make him a top class player.
  16. Feb 8, 2018

    mav_9me Full Member

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    He was 16 when he joined our Academy.
  17. Feb 8, 2018

    RedRom "Where's Lingard?"

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    Yeah which is quite old in developmental terms I would say, a fair amount of work had already been put into him by Let Harve, which we then liked the look of, and we persuaded him to join us, hence why I would not put him the same or similar category as say either Rashford or McTominay, who have been here a lot longer, and thus we played a bigger role in their respective developments.
  18. Feb 8, 2018

    ti vu Full Member

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    You should know Pogba is not English. Not many young players especially from other developed countries, especially those countries with good football pedigree, would relocate to another country at a youngest age. Remember Pogba has brothers who also tried to break through pro level in France. Not many have a small enough family so parents can carter to one child. We might have tried to get him even before he joined Le Harve, but his family might want to stay in France for little longer
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  19. Feb 8, 2018

    Mr. MUJAC Talent spotter

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    Pogba was at Le Havre for two seasons...before that one season at Torcy...before that his local team.

    That is nothing different to George Best playing for his local team...then joining Creleagh Boys Club...then coming to United at 16.

    In fact virtually every youth player in our history came about 15/16 after playing with local teams.

    It's only been in the last 10-15 years that players have come through from being at a club since they were 6/7 years old. So while that's great one can't say that there was no youth football or youth development prior to 2007.

    They are all youth players and are categorised as such.

    Everyone learns different things at different ages so you just don't know what impact a certain club or coach had on a certain player regardless of years at a club.

    They are either youth products or they are not. Saying one is more than another would be a pedantic conversation.
  20. Feb 8, 2018

    cyberman Full Member

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    @RedRom
    Theres undoubted academy graduates and there's players like Pogba but players like Pogba are more common than Gomes etc.
    Are there many Gomes type players in the lower leagues? Seamus Coleman went across to Everton at 15 odd, who does he belong to?
  21. Feb 8, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    To join Pogba's debate, while he is undoubtedly a player from our academy, I am not sure it is fair to add his minutes in the list of minutes played by academy players. Usually, those lists are made to prove that a manager gives (doesn't give) chances to the players coming from the academy. That is hardly the case for Pogba, whom we made the most expensive player of our time.

    It is closer to saying that Moyes gave minutes to players coming from our academy cause he played Giggs a lot, rather than Van Gaal giving minutes to Rashford (or Mourinho to Rashford, or Giggs to Januzaj).
  22. Feb 8, 2018

    limerickcitykid There once was a kid from Toronto...

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    Pogba is undoubtedly from our academy.

    Coleman did not go to Everton at 15, he went at 21 and was a senior player for Sligo Rovers. He is undoubtedly from his local Irish club academy and has nothing to do with Everton's.

    Players can come from multiple academies, its a silly pedantic topic that routinely comes up on here.
  23. Feb 8, 2018

    jojojo Moderator Staff

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    United across the past couple of decades have consistently produced new PL players, but not necessarily United players, and not necessarily players that we had the time/opportunity to bring through. Only occasionally have we had enough of them coming through at the same time to provide a majority of the team.

    There's no real way to predict the future of the young ones like McTominay or Tuanzebe, or the next great hopes like Gomes and Chong. What Mourinho has demonstrated is that age won't stop him from selecting a player if that player is ready, and nor will lack of experience if the game and the circumstances are right.

    Very few players arrive as starters, they get added into the team a few minutes at a time. They get longer in cup matches or dead CL group stage games. Realistically that's as much as you can ask a manager to do. The decision on what happens next - sell, loan, keep in the squad - is one for circumstances, including who the competition is for meaningful first team minutes. I think Mourinho's showing that it's the player's own performance, and willingness to learn and work, in the first team or otherwise, that decides.
  24. Feb 8, 2018

    Luciano Venturini New Member

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    How dare someone criticize the almighty powerful footballing god Pep and praise the boring football connoisseur Jose.

    Saw an article today on sky sports praising Pep for his trust in youth :lol: specifically pointing out to full back Oleksandr Zinchenko as a shining light of Pep's undenying trust in youth. Zinchenko was bought for millions of pounds and had 50+ first team appearances under his belt before his move to City. Hardly a representation of youth development at City.

    Forgetting also that he shipped out Kelechi Iheanacho (who was tipped for greatness), young prospect Jadon Sancho decided on Dortmund as a better environment to develop himself.

    Pep is doing great things with his team there is no doubting that but the constant delusional praising is getting very tedious.
  25. Feb 8, 2018

    RedRom "Where's Lingard?"

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    I would not be surprised if there are articles out there praising Pep for developing Sterling! Despite the fact he cost well over £50 million wasn't it?!

    Or Jesus who also cost a fair amount of cash himself!

    Anything to make Saint Pep be seen as in a good light!
  26. Feb 8, 2018

    Turnip Full Member

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    I have to hold my hands up an say I was a doubter of Jose before he came, and one that's always enjoyed the romantic side of youth players making it through the ranks, so this was a concern. While I think there's been perfect opportunity to play TMF more (honestly, he's already better than Jones or Smalling and probably Lindelof) I expected him to be a bit more dismissive of Lingard, Martial (I know not a youth product as such) and never expected to see McTominay getting chances in the first team.

    While I think he could have done more, we aren't in the luxury position of giving random opportunities to youth, we're still trying to fight our way back to the top, so it's pretty understandable and I think given the circumstances he's taken the tradition seriously enough.

    Considering everyone was going on about Pep working with Youth, he's done almost nothing compared to Jose.
  27. Feb 8, 2018

    D4X73r Full Member

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    I agree with your part about Pogba and Giggs. the term "academy player" to count minutes should not be used for players with a certain time of first squad years or players bought back from other teams. It's everyones opinion at what age to draw this line, but I would draw this line at 3 years of first team football (e.g. Rashford after next season).

    So if a Manager comes here, he can take credit for playing academy players who are not that long part of the first team or he has promoted from academy but every other player is in my eyes not a "academy player" but a player from our academy
  28. Feb 8, 2018

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    What about if the representation of minutes from academy players is not about the manager but more about the club as a whole. For example Giggs being a mainstay in the first team for a long time and coming from the academy is a big credit to the club. Sure it would have nothing to do with latter managers as he would be in the first team but the club as a whole has seen a significant long term benefit as we have done with Lingard and Rashford.
  29. Feb 8, 2018

    AltiUn likes playing with swords after fantasies

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    No he isn't and it's not even remotely close.
  30. Feb 8, 2018

    D4X73r Full Member

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    Of course the minutes would be credited to the club as long as the players plays for the team. My point was only for the discussion which manager should take credit for which player.

    A club should take the credit for every single academy product they have in their squad. Having players like Giggs or Scholes for that long in the team is something the club should be proud of but a manager shouldn't take credit for those players if he hasn't promoted them.

    As an example: our club can take credit for Giggs and also SAF can take the credit for Giggs being an academy product (but minutes only counted until 3rd first team season) but in case of Moyes, Giggs wasn't a academy player but a player from the academy. No credits for him
  31. Feb 8, 2018

    Andrew Wolf New Member

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    Thought I'd weigh in with my two pennies worth here as a City fan.....

    I am of the belief that our academy has gone through so many changes and facelifts in the last 10 years, that it hasn't really been fit for purpose. Certainly for developing the level of player that is required to make the grade at City now.

    These articles comparing both youth systems have only begun to come to light since Pep's decision to name only 6 subs last weekend. I still haven't made my mind up whether I was for/against that decision yet because I can't work out what point he was trying to make. If he was trying to make a point that all his players have been kicked out of games, he didn't quite get that across as he would have wanted.

    Now, the players that City and the manager think are our most talented appear to be the ones who are 17 or younger. That says to me that he's looked at players like Maffeo, Angelino, Garcia, Celina, Barker and Gunn, and deemed them not to be good enough right now to command a place in our 1st team squad. Bear in mind that all the players mentioned above have been involved in a 1st team matchday squad at least once in the past 2 and a half years. These players may be really late bloomers like Lingard who only become to show they are good enough after a few loans and when they become better physically built to play in the big league.

    Pep has had a lot of criticism for not playing academy products this season but if the belief within City is that the bunch who are coming through that are 16/17 years old are the talented ones, I don't think he deserves a lot of it. I look at Foden and Diaz....These 2 are fully fledged 1st team players at 17. They train every day with the 1st team and are involved in the vast majority of matchday squads. Are they ready? Not a hope. They are both excellent footballers who could probably hold their own if the game was non contact but the reality is that they are currently built like matchsticks and are too young to know or to have learnt how to use that to their advantage. But they are deemed to be more ready than the lads out on loan. I just think it's massively unrealistic for people to expect these lads to be playing every week.

    I know I'll get Rashford used against me here but he's clearly an anomally in modern football in this country for 17 year olds who have held their own. McTominay who has done well is a late bloomer but who is to say the lads out on loan for City won't be the same?

    It does seem that the Pep v José thing is constantly a drum that journalists beat to try and establish some animosity and Ducker is doing that with this article to be pro United. Next week he'll do another that is pro City and against Utd. I personally don't think it's a fair at this point to even compare Mourinho and Pep on youth but I'm sure a lot of you will disagree
  32. Feb 8, 2018

    limerickcitykid There once was a kid from Toronto...

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    The fact he thinks Lindelof is better than Jones and Smalling is bad enough.
  33. Feb 8, 2018

    AltiUn likes playing with swords after fantasies

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    Yeah says it all really.