England National team and qualifiers

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by roonster09, Oct 8, 2017.

  1. Oct 8, 2017
    #1

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    I just checked their record and it's just brilliant. What's with England team who have superb record in qualifiers (world cup and Euro) but awful in main tournament?

    Their last loss in qualifying phase was in 2009 when they had already won the group, that's against Ukraine.

    Their record from 2010 qualifiers
    Played- 47
    Won - 37
    Draw - 9
    Loss -1
    Goals scored - 130
    Goals conceded - 21

    That's a brilliant record for a team who is awful in the main tournament. It's not like they faced only shit teams, they faced teams like Ukraine, Croatia, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Poland, Wales, Switzerland, Scotland.

    Also for Euro 2016 qualifiers they won 10 out of 10 games and their group had Switzerland who are very decent team.

    So why is that they struggle against even decent teams in main tournament whey they have very good record against decent teams in qualifiers?
  2. Oct 8, 2017
    #2

    Ecstatic Full Member

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    One reason is there isn't a winter break so players are tired in Summer.
  3. Oct 8, 2017
    #3

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt Scouse Lover

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    Wow, look at those world beaters.
  4. Oct 8, 2017
    #4

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Wales made it to the semi finals of Euro 2016 and almost all players play in PL. Also few of France, Belgium players play in PL and that didnt stop them playing well in tournaments.
  5. Oct 8, 2017
    #5

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Also it's not like England struggled against only world beaters in main tournaments.

    World cup 2010:
    Draw against USA and Algeria, won just 1-0 against Slovenia.

    World cup 2014:
    Loss against Uruguay and draw against Costa Rica

    Euro 2016:
    Draw against Russia and Slovakia, knocked out by Iceland.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  6. Oct 8, 2017
    #6

    Ecstatic Full Member

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    A lot of English players play for the same top clubs: more games, more pressure... There aren't a lot of Welsh players playing for United/City/Chelsea.

    When I think about games like England-Italy or England-Algeria, the feeling the opposing team was more fresh. The weather has to be taken into account.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  7. Oct 8, 2017
    #7

    SilentWitness ShoelessWitness Staff

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    How much of Spains first xi were La Liga/CL winners at the time of their World Cup and Euro dominance? Compare that to England's and I'd be surprised if there wasn't a correlation.
  8. Oct 8, 2017
    #8

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    That sounds very weak excuse considering la liga teams always make the semi finals and finals of CL and still they perform good in summer.

    That was one of the reason I thought but in 2008 it was all English clubs in the finals of CL and Liverpool in semi finals. English players who played in these 3 teams: Rooney, Carrick, Ferdinand, Brown, Hargreaves, Scholes, Terry, Lampard, Cole, Gerrard, Carra. England didn't even qualify for Euro 08.
  9. Oct 8, 2017
    #9

    sun_tzu The Art of Bore

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    Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.
    True...
    .....................robinson...................
    Brown........rio..........terry.........cole
    .....................hargreaves.................
    ...........lampard...............scholes....
    ..........................gerrard..................
    ..................owen..........rooney.........

    Should have at least qualified!

    That said how we didn't qualify in 1994 always shocked me more
    ........................seaman.................
    Dixon.......adams.......walker....pearce
    ..........................ince......................
    ...............platt..............gascoigne.......
    ........................beardsley..................
    ................wright...........shearer..........

    Should have been one of the favourites that year in retrospect!
  10. Oct 8, 2017
    #10

    Paul_Scholes18 Full Member

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    Think most of Englands problems are probably mental. Expectations and probably cause people keep repeating that they fail all the time so it gets into peoples heads. Kind of like Spurs at Wembley at the moment.
  11. Oct 8, 2017
    #11

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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    They're usually boring as feck in qualifiers and grind out results. You can tell from just watching they will never get anywhere. Not just mental but technical and tactical deficiencies are visible despite their wins at qualifier level.
  12. Oct 8, 2017
    #12

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt Scouse Lover

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    English players are mentally soft.
    There's more than enough evidence to support that claim. Euro 2016 is the biggest clue. That team had 72 minutes to find an equaliser. Not only did they not get the equaliser, their game completely fell apart and their most experienced player was the biggest culprit.
    The 2010 WC is another. Complaining of boredom during a tournament. I hVe never heard that from another country.
  13. Oct 8, 2017
    #13

    golden_blunder Site admin. Manchester United fan Staff

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    For me it's 2 simple things

    1. Unfair pressure exerted by the media. They always look to knock them down again. If they find bad news they cannot wait to break it. Why not wait til the tournament is over?
    2. Bad management/coaching. There has been no shortage of resources or top notch players. Look at the countries like Iceland who are successful, by their standards. They have neither resources or a big pool of players. They use good coaching, organised and a plan to utilise what they have. The sum is greater than the parts, they don't try to play square pegs in round holes.
  14. Oct 8, 2017
    #14

    Ecstatic Full Member

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    I'm not looking for any excuse. Several reasons have to be taken into account, including:

    - the lack of a winter break for 95% of your selected players
    - the fact British players are not very familiar with high temperatures.

    England-Italy, England-Costa Rica or England-Algeria: I see a tired England team, just my opinion of course.

    Also, easy qualifiers ----> over confidence ---> not the perfect mental spirit
  15. Oct 8, 2017
    #15

    TheRedDevil'sAdvocate Full Member

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    Part of it is because of the clash between the desire to present a team that will be representative of England's footballing traditions and the need to adapt to what modern times require of football teams. I believe that this is a debate that goes back to the 90's. The England sides i've watched either try to shoehorn all their quality players into something that represents a 442 or they experiment with different formations and alternative game plans but without much thought or care about whether the players are suitable for such changes or not. This, almost always, results in a team that doesn't play to its strengths. I mean, you can argue that the renowned English stars should be able to beat Iceland, but when you aim to win a game by controlling it with Dier and Rooney in the midfield, you're asking for trouble.

    Another thing is the lack of a good plan and team cohesion (as much as can be achieved in a NT). These are important factors during the final stage of a big tournament when almost all games are played with the back against the wall and every little mistake or miscalculation can prove to be the difference between failure and success. This is plain to see in the Belgian NT: A rare generation of fantastically gifted individuals that can easily qualify for the WC/Euro but will they be able to form a formidable/solid unit whose game plan will carry them through the knock out stages of a big competition? The Netherlands, back in 2014, didn't have the best of players but LvG provided sound tactics that took the best out of what he had to work with. The Italians are doing rather well despite not having an abundance of talent lately for the same reason. Well, England doesn't have a practical game plan and they lack the quality too.

    The infamous mental block is a byproduct of these things IMO. The million dollar question for England is how to utilize transition/counter-attacking tactics when most of its players feel burnt out after hectic seasons. My first thought would be to combine good passing abilities with controlling the match rhythm in the midfield but the latter seems to be a lost concept in the island. Or rather, it's nice to laugh at the domestic enemy (for instance, Klopp) because of their inability to take the steam out of games and mask their defensive weaknesses but when it's working fine for us, it's dismissed as "zombie passing". Never in my life i understood why England hasn't entered the final stage of a tournament with Scholes/Carrick as the basis of their midfield (even a three-man one). I always believed that SAF was showing the way forward for the NT but the managers paid no heed and chose to do their thing instead. A second thought would be to go into these games as underdogs. Play more defensively, there's no shame in that. Look how the role of the underdog suited Portugal in the last Euro. Admitting that you're not on the same level with the other big footballing nations isn't degrading when it's a simple truth. It's actually the first step towards acknowledging your problems and fixing them.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  16. Oct 8, 2017
    #16

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    England expects to qualify for every tournament.

    England expects to feck it up shortly afterwards
  17. Oct 8, 2017
    #17

    JamesB__ Full Member

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    We’re a far better team than most in Europe and have good enough players to get us to the tournaments, despite the terrible football their managers have them playing.

    They’re just shit when they start to come under pressure and play a better level of opposition.
  18. Oct 8, 2017
    #18

    JustFootballFan Thinks Balotelli & Pogba look the same

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    I think partly England´s flawless qualifying record is due to the fact that they never build toward something. Some teams sacrifice short-term success for the long-term goal. Everything Germany does for example is done with the goal to peak in the summer of 2018. Sure they need to qualify first, but they use the period between tournaments for talent and character evaluation. What group of 23 players will give us the biggest chance for success in Russia.

    England only looks from game to game. Maximum result in the next game.

    How is Tammy Abraham not cup-tied to England yet? He should have been in this squad. As a coach you have to think ahead a year, two years, five years. You need to be aware of the big picture. You need to have enough confidence to say, you´ll get the result against Slovenia. Then you can blood Abraham in the last game. Now Nigeria go to the World Cup and he´ll have a HUGE short-term motivator to pick them. How can Abraham lead all the English youth teams to glory and you do not invite him to the English squad once? Make him feel like he´s close to the senior squad. That you believe in his future. Build a personal relationship with Abraham. Worst of it all Abraham has been better than AOC this season.

    And let´s not even talk about the fact that Southgate wanted to invite Rooney. Southgate needs to build leaders from the young core, whether it´s Alli or Kane or Rashford or Stones. He needs young vocal leaders that ARE ON THE PITCH. Having the presence of Rooney in the locker room undermines that whole natural selection process. Rooney will be 32.5 years old next summer, going to Russia, the country of Vodka and the hottest golddiggers. How much help can he be? It´s the perfect example of no long-term planning.
  19. Oct 8, 2017
    #19

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    It wouldn't be right to cup tie him just for the sake of it. He has a good relationship with England has has recently publicly committed to England amid rumours of him switching. He needs to show a bit more in the PL yet but I think he has a chance of going to the World Cup with us. If in the end he chooses to switch to Nigeria for senior playing time then good luck to him.
  20. Oct 8, 2017
    #20

    Ecstatic Full Member

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  21. Oct 8, 2017
    #21

    Ducklegs Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    We don’t employ managers who understand tournament football, not only that we don’t employ managers who see the England job as top to bottom job from the U17s upwards.

    Every match is a must win, there is no room for carrying underperformers in the hope that they “come good and do something”.

    If something isn’t working, you need to change it NOW not “see how it goes”.

    It isn’t a place for trying out new tactics, it isnt a place for throwing in players who aren’t fit, haven’t scored, never played with the team before, picked on the club they play for and not for actually how good they are at football.

    Roy didn’t get it, Sven didnt get it, Capello didn’t know where he was, McLaren was an idiot, and Southgate will pick who is told to without arguing.

    So much is wrong with how we do things, it’s just pointless discussing it.
  22. Oct 8, 2017
    #22

    GlastonSpur Also disliked on an Aston Villa forum

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    Told to by whom?
  23. Oct 8, 2017
    #23

    haram Full Member

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    Southgate is fecking shite. We wont make it out the groups. Couldnt create anything against Lithuania ffs. It's not the players, its him.
  24. Oct 8, 2017
    #24

    GhastlyHun Full Member

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    Victorious once more!!


    1-0 against Lithuania and a pen needed for that... this thread is its own parody already :p
  25. Oct 8, 2017
    #25

    Carl has permanently erect nipples

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    Or that the teams we face in qualifiers are generally absolute dross.
  26. Oct 8, 2017
    #26

    Carl has permanently erect nipples

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    Both diamonds. That's clearly it. Diamonds are bad.
  27. Oct 8, 2017
    #27

    NinjaFletch Full Member

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    I honestly think it's just impressive at this point. For a country that spends so much on football and cares so much about it, for a country with a league system that brings in revenue by the bucketloads, to have this to show for it in international football shows staggering levels of mismanagement.

    We've a shit team, with shit players managed by a shit manager, we have a shit system underlying it, we have shit coaching at all levels, we have a top division league where teams are so petrified of going down the they play shit football in 90% of games.

    I honestly think at this stage the dissolution of the FA and its replacement by something better is the only solution.
  28. Oct 8, 2017
    #28

    Carl has permanently erect nipples

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    Expectations have been really low for a decade now. Seriously. Players shouldn't crumble under the expectation of "not embarrassing yourselves".
  29. Oct 8, 2017
    #29

    Bobski Full Member

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    So much of it is mental. Fairly mediocre Portugal and Greece teams have won international tournaments in recent years, based on hard work, defensive resilience and mostly not being afraid of the moment. An opportunity arose and they grabbed it, while convincing no-one they were even close to great teams.

    England could not do that, they put tournaments on this Pedestal, and the pressure and the hype overwhelms them. Media has far too much influence, that has been a key problem for years, every player goes into a tournament match knowing what will come their way if they mess up.
  30. Oct 8, 2017
    #30

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    We'd expect to beat any of that lot 9 out of 10 times though.

    I didn't even realise England had a game today. I'm almost at zero interest in qualifiers now. Just the tournaments save it for me.
  31. Oct 8, 2017
    #31

    sun_tzu The Art of Bore

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    Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.
    Actually it's probably more that we didn't play the diamond and tried to shoehorn those players into a 442 instead that was half the problem... fantastic player though scholes was he was not a fantastic left winger
  32. Oct 8, 2017
    #32

    izzydiggler Full Member

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    I think part of the problem is that England treat qualifications as a completely separate entity to the tournaments, as if the 2 don’t have any relation to each other at all. There appears to be no forward plan as in ‘we’ll use these 2 (or beyond) years to become a team that plays this way’ etc.

    The qualification results are great but I don’t see any real progression with performances from the start of qualification, albeit under different management. It’s very obvious but in general playing well means chances created, goals etc - England play well enough to beat ‘lesser’ teams during qualification but in tournaments the level needs to be higher. An England team in form and playing well comfortably beats Iceland (and better teams) but they rarely produce at the right times.

    Of course there are other issues like mental toughness, perhaps tiredness, too much expectation and maybe the players are massively overrated but the performances should be much higher than we will inevitably see in Russia.
  33. Oct 8, 2017
    #33

    Liver_bird Full Member

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    As people have said, the only thing that matters in England is the result. How you play is irrelevant if you get results. Therefore there's no long term planning, no cohesion, no parameters set for a progression from tournament to tournament and youth to senior squad. The fans and pundits/media in this country feed in to that. We eulogise the likes of WBA being able to nick a 1-0 away from home against a top 6 side and hail it as a masterclass. Don't get me wrong there's skill involved in setting up that way but it's systematic of the way fans see football here.

    By fans I mean the everyday ones, the type that phone in asking for the managers head after a loss to Robbie Savage and the like.
    Those are the fans that are catered towards, people love the plucky underdog playing shite football story. The media in other countries can be worse but over here it's all a product and the ' most entertaining league in the world ' moniker is where a lot of it derives from in my opinion. This is the way fans and media want this league to be played.
    I see shouts for Chalobah, RLC, Abraham once these lads get call ups the pressure on them increases ten fold and the spotlight here is greater than anywhere else. Compare that to a Timo Werner bursting through at Leipzig for Germany, he's allowed to develop away from the spotlight he's not being scrutinised game in game out on a results basis. Players are blooded in under the radar and progress and develop.
    It's not going to happen here. The talent pool being scarce is almost redundant at this point, we have no method of utilising it, no set up that has the know how required.
    It's a shambles and will be save for drastic change.
  34. Oct 8, 2017
    #34

    Dobbs Banned

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    We've also had a massive wedge of bad luck in tournaments over the years.

    Penalties, sending offs, injuries, bad ref decisions. If all that stuff goes the other way, if we beat Germany in '90 and '96, Argentina '98, go further as we should have 2004,2006, it gets progressively easier for the next generation.

    But it didn't and with each sorry story comes added pressure for the next bunch.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  35. Oct 9, 2017
    #35

    Angry Virginian Full Member

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    As an outsider, I have always felt that other national teams played more like an actual "team" than England did in major tournaments. England always looked to me like a group of players that never played together before.

    Also, I think that England has not have any true creative force since Gazza.
  36. Oct 30, 2017
    #36

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

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  37. Oct 31, 2017
    #37

    automaticflare Full Member

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    That 94 team is completely imbalanced. Ince was never a holding midfielder.
    Then you have shearer one of the best old fashioned forwards ever with zero width supplying him crosses to do the damage.

    Always englands problem shoe horn in best players with no thought on the team
  38. Jan 4, 2018
    #38

    Andy_Cole Full Member

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    Excited for England this World Cup. Pending Southgate doesn’t flop the lineup! I’d have this lineup:

    ————-Kane————-
    —-Rashford-Alli-Sterling—
    ——-—-Wilshere-Dier——-
    Young-Smalling-Jones-Walker
    ————-Pickford—————

    Lingard, Vardy, Butland, Cahill, Shaw, Maguire, Lallana, Henderson, Stones, Forster, Trippier, Zaha

    Think it’s a 23 man squad right? No doubt though Joe Hart will start unfortunately as well as captain Henderson. Wouldn’t be surprised if Carroll (plan B) will make it too! Oh and of course Smalling won’t start, it would probably be Stones. Young too won’t.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  39. Jan 4, 2018
    #39

    Damien Self-Aware RedCafe Database (and Admin) Staff

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    Zaha plays for Ivory Coast.
  40. Jan 4, 2018
    #40

    Andy_Cole Full Member

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    Ah yes! Forgot about that. Put in Welbeck or Ox instead then.