Fairplay to Lindelof: Starting to look the part now

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Fortitude, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. Nov 29, 2017
    #81

    simonhch Horrible boss

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    Hilarious to see Jones is now the odd one out again. Until his injury he had probably been the best cb in the premier league this season. While Lindelof was seen as the worst player ever. Two decent performances later and it’s a complete 180.

    Fans are so fickle. And by fickle, I mean stupid. Lindelof was always class, as was Jones. We have 5 top drawer center halves. Any combination of which is proven over and over again. We need all 5.
  2. Nov 29, 2017
    #82

    kudiak New Member

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    2 last matches he played well.

    and yesterday against Watford, he pocketed Richarlison.
    hope he will find the rhytm and form.
  3. Nov 29, 2017
    #83

    Invictus Poster of the Year 2015

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    Yep, this is presumably why José targeted him specifically despite having Bailly, Jones, Smalling, Rojo and young Tuanzebe in the fold. That argument was lost in the midst of the overwhelmingly shortsighted slander campaign of recent months - even though Lindelöf hasn't had the time to acclimatize to the club, become more willing to engage in Premier League trench warfare, and wrap his head around what is the biggest transfer of his career from a mental standpoint. Mourinho likes to have a central defender who can comfortably bring the ball out of defense (as a passer or a dribbler - ranging from Carvalho to Lúcio to Ramos), and Lindelöf is more accomplished than all of our other centerbacks in that department (apart from Blind when he plays there). Looks a lot less shell-shocked already, but he will have more ups and downs as he develops - which is an important thing to bear in mind because he's far from a finished product. Thought he resembled young Bonucci in his transfer thread, and like him - Lindelöf will need a lot of patience and support to truly emerge as a defensive leader - maybe even till his mid to late 20s - which could be half a decade away yet.
    http://www.redcafe.net/threads/victor-lindelöf.417556/page-45#post-20952352

    Very excited to see what becomes of him and Bailly - on paper, it looks like a diminished version of Blanc and Desailly. :drool:
  4. Nov 29, 2017
    #84

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    He needed to up his agression levels and show the strikers he isn't weak. That was his my main problem at the start, he seemed too soft. Just impose yourself physically and the confidence will increase.
  5. Nov 29, 2017
    #85

    prtk0811 Banned

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    He's adapting to the league slowly and steadily. Great performance tonight.

    Next big job could be keeping sanchez out .
  6. Nov 29, 2017
    #86

    GM K Full Member

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    Not sure it will be such an easy choice. I thought Smalling played better than Rojo and Smalling has been making me eat my words lately to be honest. And think about Jones at his best. If Jose has his four center backs fit and in form, it's going to be one heck a headache making his pick. Especially when he also wants to give the young AT some game time.
  7. Nov 29, 2017
    #87

    KM I’m afraid I just blue myself

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    I won't mind if he's sold. I do rate him, but his antics with England has really pissed me off. Why the hell did he allow English doctors to put 6 injections in him before a fecking friendly is beyond me? Manchester United isn't a charity.
  8. Nov 29, 2017
    #88

    Bobcat Full Member

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    Credit where it's due: Has looked like a completely different player the last two matches. Had it not been for Young playing like a world beater i would have voted him MOTM
  9. Nov 29, 2017
    #89

    Lay Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    It’s almost like giving a new player time is the way to go!? :eek:
  10. Nov 29, 2017
    #90

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Only saw the first half but he looked very good.

    The reaction to his start was extremely hard. A lot of players take time to adapt to the PL.
  11. Nov 29, 2017
    #91

    devilish Phil Neville's #1 fan

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    He's Tuanzebe's career killer.
  12. Nov 29, 2017
    #92

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert

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    Pro-activity, size and strength as well as the willingness to get dirty.

    Even if Lindelof is not bullying forwards like a menace, compared to Blind, he looks monstrously strong, due to Blind being so weak. Lindelof nudged Richarlison off the ball a few times with his body at points where Blind would have been shoved aside or put on his arse. He also didn't hesitate to try and get across his man to not only intercept a ball, but put himself in the way as an obstacle for the forwards to get around. Once he had the ball, he looked up to see what he could do with it, either on the run or playing it forward, which isn't something we see from our CB's outside of him.

    You're not going to get those levels of pro-activity from Blind, namely because he's not physically cable of initialising plays by aggressively going in on a forward.

    Two things:

    - Richarlison and Watford as a whole are actually strong in the air. Lindelof had to challenge Richarlison directly in the air or prevent him from getting any clear run ups on crosses. He did that enough time to make me think it's not going to be a problem or a weakness for him going forward.

    - Smalling is actually very good in the air on defensive headers - probably our best at them - so being less than him at that particular aspect is not the worst thing in the world.

    Personally, I'd measure the quality of the opposition in the air primarily before looking at us in this regard. We're competent enough at set pieces, and there's only a handful of Benteke's and Richarlison's in the league to concern ourselves with in open play.

    Unless we're playing a team who are a reputed threat in the air, we don't really need a specialist aerial containment plan/defender. Besides, I think Bailly and Lindelof are going to get better under Jose's tutelage.

    He'll definitely make more errors than other CB's, but I think he's going to buy himself time and tolerance for his mistakes now that it's evident there's a proper player in there. If he continues with that pro-active style, he'll be hard-pressed not to make a few errors, but the benefits, if he gets it right far outweigh the cost of a few mishaps unless they come in high profile, tight games where he's the difference between a positive and a negative result.
    The important thing to note with the style of play he has is that once he wins the ball, he can immediately initialise an attack by picking out the best option and not simply passing the ball off to a midfielder ahead of him to do the job. He's picked a few peaches already that the opposition have had no time at all to react to, which is the beauty of a ball-playing CB and something that will be a huge asset to us if he has it in his locker at any given time.

    Who is your barometer when talking about 'pass master'? Because he's obviously got a ways to go to be world class at it, but even now, it's clear he's easily our best passer out of the back and willing to try things he believe are in his scope, which is nice to see as we haven't had one of those since Rio.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  13. Nov 29, 2017
    #93

    ScarleyUtd Full Member

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    This.
  14. Nov 29, 2017
    #94

    UnrelatedPsuedo I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!

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    Have a word. Jesus Christ that's a ridiculous statement.

    That kind of nonsense has foundations in two bad games against Liverpool and a World Class Torres.

    Vidic was one of the best 1v1 defenders we've had in recent years.
  15. Nov 29, 2017
    #95

    KM I’m afraid I just blue myself

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    Astounding statement.

    Btw, he completely neutralised Richarlison who's Watfords best player.
  16. Nov 29, 2017
    #96

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    As if it were ever in doubt....
  17. Nov 29, 2017
    #97

    Escobar Poster originally known as Michel04

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    And it was clear after the first 2 games that Lindelof will need at least one full season to get going at United, like Evra or Vidic did. Jones is still a quality defender, absolute top, but his injuries will always be a huge issue. Smalling is still the worst defender we have but he's been doing a good job recently
  18. Nov 29, 2017
    #98

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert

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    As a defender-defender (stripping away actions once they have to use the ball), I think it's actually incredibly difficult to separate our CB's as they all have strengths and weaknesses and none of them tower above the rest as world class.
  19. Nov 29, 2017
    #99

    Oscie Full Member

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    Improved, but I think a thread praising his performances is a little premature.
  20. Nov 29, 2017

    Lentwood Full Member

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    I only saw the first half but Lindelof was outstanding bar one moment when Richarlison turned him inside out but that will happen if good players isolate CBs

    I have been very critical of Lindelof but I am starting to slowly think there might be a player in there. Whether that player will ever be a world class CB I don’t know, but from possibly the worst start I’ve ever seen by a Utd signing if he even makes a decent squad player that would be an achievement
  21. Nov 29, 2017

    Sunny Jim Full Member

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    Very soild yesterday. Dare i say better than Rojo.
  22. Nov 29, 2017

    Jeppers7 New Member

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    Outstanding last night. Seemed to be in the way of everything
  23. Nov 29, 2017

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert

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    From looking like someone who might be completely out of his depth here and an absolute liability who will cost us whenever he is on the pitch, to playing a key role in containing one of the form players in the league is thread-worthy in itself.

    To now be able to actually incorporate him as a useful asset, or even a viable option, is also thread-worthy.

    This place does players down without a moment's pause, there's reason to highlight when players do well, too.
  24. Nov 29, 2017

    TsuWave Full Member

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    i thought the same. hopefully improves on that
  25. Nov 29, 2017

    Rossa Full Member

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    Bailly has lost a fair few headers and isn't the best at winning the long balls from deep from opposition half - Smalling excells on those. Lindelöf did well today, but Smalling had to do the heavy lifting when Deeney came on. Lindelöf should win headers against a player like Richarlison. For some reason, Baillly seems to use his neck more than his forehead when heading the ball. He has a great leap, but sometimes his timing is a little off.

    Out of all of our centre backs, only Smalling is a very tall player.
    Bailly: 1.87 m
    Jones: 1.80 m (looks taller, but sources tell us so)
    Rojo: 1.87 m
    Lindelöf: 1.87
    Smalling: 1.93

    Smalling has a noticeable height advantage over the others, and he uses it to good effect. Vidic was "only" 1.89, but he had great timing and was thus better in the air than the 1.92 m tall Rio. Smalling has a great leap, strength and timing on defensive headers.

    I'm not saying Lindelöf, Bailly and Rojo may not be the way forward, but Smalling has been our best and most consistent defender and offers us an aerial presence the others simply don't. Therefore, I just can't understand why he is so often omitted from our preferred backline.
  26. Nov 29, 2017

    Rossa Full Member

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    Richarlison is not great in the air. He's a fairly short player at 1.79 and seemed about equal to Valencia in the air, who is far from world class in that compartment. Lindelöf should deal with him and he did - fair play. There was a reason why Smalling moved all over in the box to take out Deeney, however. Being our best defender in the air is very important. How you can say that having the best header is not that important is beyond me. Where do we need them to excel at? Smalling is arguably our best one on one defender as well.

    Richarlison at 1.79 m is hardly similar to Benteke at 1.90, or Morata at 1.89, or Giroud at 1.92, or Kane at 1.88. There are plenty of tall aerially capable players in the league where we require our best centre back in the air to play. We should avoid having to rotate to much.
  27. Nov 29, 2017

    GloryHunter07 Full Member

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    Yup!
  28. Nov 29, 2017

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert

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    Vidic had an appetite for an aerial duel that Rio didn't. There's no way Rio is putting his head on the line with the same vim and vigour as Vidic did, so there are other factors at hand in comparing them as aerial duelists.

    Smalling is our worst defender on the deck and the one strong teams will isolate and press for easy turnovers.

    He has his strengths, but he also has weaknesses that can keep him out of the team in certain games or when others are fit.
  29. Nov 29, 2017

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert

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    I don't know why you're listing heights, as great heading has more factors to it than that by a long shot. Remember Tim Cahill? One of the best at timing his movement, leap and head placement to generate some magnificent headers that either went clean through into the net, or left his marker looking like he had lead in his boots. Karl-Heinz Riedle, and many others the same thing. Richarlson is a proper threat in the air because he's sharp and reads the flight of the ball quickly and acts succinctly off the back of that.

    You're talking about a specific type of header(er) who uses brute force up against the CB to win the header, whilst actually being a threat on goal - the league doesn't have many of those anymore, Benteke being the best at it and perhaps a game where you need a specialist in the air to deal with him.

    Deeney is about brute force, not being particularly good in the air. You obviously put your strongest most physical defender on him as a general matter of common sense, not because he'll destroy you in the air, but because he's looking for any physical advantage he can get.

    Morata is about movement and timing, not smashing into CB's. Linedlof has not shown himself to be good at judging the flight of balls yet, which is more the reason to not put him on Morata than anything to do with physical strengths, height or incompetence at actually heading the ball.

    1-on-1, Smalling is very good, but he's also tremendously grabby, and he really does get away with a lot when it comes to fouling via shirt tugging or wrapping his hands around players in the box. I really wish he would cut that out because it's a 50/50 pen everytime and a matter of whether the ref feels like giving it rather than it not being one, which is tenuous to say the least.

    Anyway, in short, aerial strength is not as important as it once was. I wouldn't forgo superiority on the deck for it in this day and age and I wouldn't worry about it until we were faced with a team who were notoriously strong in the air from both open play and set pieces, which, you're rarely going to find in the league these days.
  30. Nov 29, 2017

    prath92 Full Member

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    3:00 was my favourite tackle
  31. Nov 29, 2017

    devilish Phil Neville's #1 fan

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    I've said it time and time again. Partner him with an experienced CB with some brains and he'll do well. Since we don't have that play with 3 at the back.
  32. Nov 29, 2017

    GBBQ Full Member

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    I'd agree in general about knee jerk reactions but given how many wrote him off after a similar match sample size its nice to see the tide change.
  33. Nov 29, 2017

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

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    Just as 3 months into the season was too early to be writing him off, 2 games is too early to say he's now 'looking the part'

    It took Rojo until Jose coming in to show his potential so lets at least wait till the end of Lindelof's first season before any lasting opinions are made
  34. Nov 29, 2017

    Joeace2020 New Member

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    Fickle fans... now he's class!
  35. Nov 29, 2017

    Klopp_De_Klown Full Member

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    I know people will go on about last night being the start. But to be fair to the lad he has improved with every game as his understanding and minutes grew. You could see him starting to improve game on game. Same as with Rio and Vidic we just had to ride out the first few games you'd nearly think we'd of learned by now. Hopefully, he can keep improving to be a top centre half. Be interesting to see what level he eventually makes. As long as its above Mr Glass and Mike then is a huge step up
  36. Nov 29, 2017

    Parma Dewol Full Member

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    Got to admit, I'd almost given up on this chap after his extremely shaky start, but in Football you really do never know. Thought he played really well for Sweden in the two legs against Italy, and he seems to have built from there. Onwards and upwards, well done young man.
  37. Nov 29, 2017

    Tom Van Persie No relation

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    Not surprised tbh I thought he was impressive at Benfica and it's just a matter of time before he settles in here. People wrote him off way too soon and they forget how good Mourinho is at judging centre backs.
  38. Nov 29, 2017

    kleberson_ Full Member

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    Only it wasn't a handball.

    Had a great game and long may that continue. Happy as a swede today! :)
  39. Nov 29, 2017

    JoaquinJoaquin Full Member

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    Hilarious the amount of people on here saying they 'always rated him' and 'knew he would come good' when he had very few people defending him 2 weeks ago.

    I'm very happy for Lindelof. He does have his short falls (particularly in the air and in 1 vs 1 situations), but there is no reason he won't improve on those aspects being a young defender.
  40. Nov 29, 2017

    Bestietom Full Member

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    As I said from the start. He has skill and composure on the ball and he will improve and show he is a very good defender given the game time.