Fan or Consumer?

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Devil may care, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. Feb 25, 2018
    #1

    Devil may care Full Member Verified Moaner

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    @Rado_N made an interesting comment in one of the threads after today's game, basically saying fans not happy today were not really fans, they are consumers, now that's cool if that's how he sees it, I'm sure he's not alone, but it got me curious as to how others view this distinction, so I put the thread here as I think it applies to a lot more clubs than just United.

    The idea that all that matters is the win no matter the manner of play or the type of team that is being built, is apparently a true fan, I'm sure some will agree. I'm not sure about the consumer label though, to me being a consumer is a completely unenemotional experience, if you're watching a TV show and it deteriorates you stop watching and it's onto a new show, if you buy a meal that you enjoy and they alter something in the recipe and you no longer enjoy the taste, you just stop buying it.

    Watching United today I found as angering and depressing as the games against Newcastle, Huddersfield and Sevilla, the results were all different but the turgid, cautious, sterile style of play was the same and this is what being a Mourinho team is, he's purely a results at any cost manager, I don't like what we are becoming, I thought he would try to become a Manchester United manager here, not mold us into a Jose Mourinho club, if not wanting the latter makes someone a consumer then ok, but I don't associate such strong emotional responses to be that of a consumer.

    I'm interested in how other clubs feel about this as I'm sure Barca, Bayern, Liverpool and some other posters teams have similar divides in their fanbase.
  2. Feb 25, 2018
    #2

    Rado_N Yaaas Broncos!

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    I didn't say anybody not happy with the performance, I just said it's true of a lot of people on this forum.
  3. Feb 25, 2018
    #3

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    I guess I am a consumer then.
  4. Feb 25, 2018
    #4

    MaxiPaxi likes to shove his mum's boiled eggs up his rectum

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    400 million transfer kitty?
  5. Feb 25, 2018
    #5

    Skills Snitch

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    Fellate Mourinho at every opportunity your a fan. Anything else you're a consumer.
  6. Feb 25, 2018
    #6

    SalfordRed18 Full Member

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    Find it bizarre how some people prefer to lose in style rather than grind out a win..
  7. Feb 25, 2018
    #7

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt Scouse Lover

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    Wouldn't consumers have gone somewhere else to get a more quality product?
  8. Feb 25, 2018
    #8

    MaxiPaxi likes to shove his mum's boiled eggs up his rectum

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    Results have been decent over the course of the season but as a team we're shite to watch. Don't see the problem with people being dissatisfied with that.
  9. Feb 25, 2018
    #9

    walkinhop Full Member

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    Experiencing negative emotions, participating in a fan forum, coming back for more after Moyes and LvG...if this means consumer, i'd like to know the definition of propa fandom.
  10. Feb 25, 2018
    #10

    Zlatattack Full Member

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    I actually prefer to win in style, something alien to Manchester United at the moment.

    If being a fan means being loyal like a battered wife, then I'd rather be seen as a consumer whore.
  11. Feb 25, 2018
    #11

    Di Maria's angel Captain of Moanchester United

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    Ultimately, I think everyone across the board would like us to replicate what City (as much as I hate to say it) are currently doing (or look to be achieving) i.e. winning in style. However, sometimes, as a fan, you have to come to terms with whats in front of you. We might not be playing in the flamboyant nature we used in the late 2000's, however, we're still capable of beating most, if not all, opponents we've faced or who we're due to face. Personally, I don't think the football we're serving up is even that bad and when you combine that with the fact that we're more consistent at winning then you're result is a team in 2nd place, in the QF of the FA cup and in control of our last 16 tie in the CL. Some of the comments I've seen do make me wonder whether a certain person even supports us? I guess winning gives me a better feeling than the style. I find myself screaming and jumping off my seat in a game like this than, say, the 8-2 win over Arsenal in 2011.
  12. Feb 25, 2018
    #12

    Suedesi Full Member

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    This.

    End the thread
  13. Feb 25, 2018
    #13

    Witchking Full Member

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    Aptly put. Should end the discussion.

    The top reds are in fine form.
  14. Feb 25, 2018
    #14

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    Yep and strangely enough you can keep your "top red" status if you destroy our players every day on here.
  15. Feb 25, 2018
    #15

    Skills Snitch

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    Especially the players who've actually been here longer than the manager! Bonus points for that in fact
  16. Feb 25, 2018
    #16

    Duafc Colm Murray

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    Total misrepresentation of the point.

    It’s valid in that I think people don’t actually offer all that much support, particularly with how far they’ll go to vilify a player or the boss. Smacks of petty, immature and spoiltness to me... as well as being ill thought out and very short minded.

    Which is not to say anyone is above criticism, there’s just a bit difference between the two.
  17. Feb 25, 2018
    #17

    RedFish Full Member

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    Fansumer?
  18. Feb 25, 2018
    #18

    Jacko21 Full Member

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    What I've learned today, is that some on here can't appreciate that a team can play poorly in large parts of the game, yet still win.

    Which is what we did against Chelsea. We created two moments of quality and scored on both occasions. Outside of that, we were not good to watch.
  19. Feb 25, 2018
    #19

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    "You spoilt and entitled bunch how do you expect Mourinho to do anything with this sorry bunch." I am paraphrasing.
  20. Feb 25, 2018
    #20

    diplomat Banned

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    Precisely. Supply, demand and all that.

    Instead of celebrating this incredible turn around and win for us today, some people preferred to stomp with their feet, claim the moral high ground and "top red" authority, and even some suggested banning everyone who they don't like, calling them "cnuts" and what not. Disgraceful attitude in my opinion, we are fans of the same team but some feel above the rest and even go as far as to be hostile to the ones who disagree with them on different topics.
  21. Feb 25, 2018
    #21

    Rifer Full Member

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    Consuming fan?
  22. Feb 25, 2018
    #22

    0161_UNITED Full Member

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    Seems to me using the word “consumer” isn’t interesting at all, just a easy and unconventional way to avoid using words that can explain and express the idea that some people are fans and some not as much. Or some understand football and some are on a wind up. There is a very legitimate debate to be had about whether the ethos of United as an attacking football team is relevant, and being fulfilled under Mourinho, or whether pragmatic success under Mourinho trumps style, or whether we are progressing under Mourinho based on something other than knee jerking reactions to the last one or 2 matches. That all gets lost in the haze of this place these days. Not being able to call someone an effing idiot without consequences sometimes doesn’t help :) (Not directed at Devil, Rado or anyone in particular, mind - but some posts, posters and threads deserve it)
  23. Feb 25, 2018
    #23

    Moonred Full Member

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    It’s all good if we win for me. But you rarely can continuously win being rubbish. Hardly the day to discuss that though.
  24. Feb 25, 2018
    #24

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    Consumed by angst.
  25. Feb 25, 2018
    #25

    thejtrain Full Member

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    Exactly.
  26. Feb 25, 2018
    #26

    sullydnl Ross Kemp's caf ID

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    Fan of the club but consumer of the games, I guess.

    For most of the week I just want us to do well, in whatever form that takes. In that sense I'm relatively happy with where we are right now. I think of our relatively good league position, I think of potential CL progress and I'm content to look forward to the next game.

    For the 90 minutes I'm watching us play though the turgid football leaves me strangely underwhelmed & dissapointed, as if I'd forgotten how dull we are to watch. At some point I switched from enjoying watching us play football to enjoying watching us get results, which are rather different things. If the results aren't there then there isn't really anything to enjoy in those 90min because it's been a while since the football itself kept me entertained.

    But not watching us play isn't really an option because once one game is over I remember all the positives and start looking forward to the next game, like an idiot.
  27. Feb 25, 2018
    #27

    AndyJ1985 Full Member Verified Moaner

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    That's just his opinion, it doesn't make him right. Saying someone isn't a real fan doesn't make them not a real fan and no one has to justify the level of their support to anyone else.

    At the end of the day if someone wasn't a "real fan" they'd just go and "support" City, because what reason would they have to stick around? Continuing to support United despite being displeased with the quality of the football would suggest they are real fans.
  28. Feb 25, 2018
    #28

    adexkola Arsenal supporter Verified Moaner City Lover

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    Boom.
  29. Feb 25, 2018
    #29

    Client6 New Member

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    There is a habit in this forum to extrapolate whatever you post and classify it between two extremes- you are either in camp A or camp B - when what you mean to say through your post is somewhere in between, as usual. This tendency to classify posts (and posters) has turned this forum into shit to be honest.

    Mourinho and his football is not everyone's cup of tea for sure. Doesn't make you a less "proper" fan.

    Everyone obviously wants to win with style. That's not happening at the moment - no one can deny that. Period.

    What is really baffling is some choosing to lose. If you are saying explicitly "I'd rather United lose in style than win with boring football", that is totally baffling. You are entitled to your opinion, and to YOUR "idea" of Manchester United, and it doesn't necessarily make you less of a fan (some will disagree), but that makes of a fan of YOUR idea of Manchester United, or maybe of the Manchester United tradition. And that's okay, after all United were winning with style all these years.

    This and
    brings me to a question I wanted to ask, especially to the really old (1950s, 1960s) fans - just what exactly is the United tradition? Is it "ONLY and ALWAYS winning with style"? Is it "ONLY and ALWAYS putting winning first"? Obviously, it is somewhere in between right? But it definitely isn't "playing with style regardless of the result". I am pretty sure the Babes weren't too happy with losing 4-5. I am pretty sure if anything outscoring the opposition mattered to them the most. "You score 4, we will score 5". Yes, it was probably relentless attacking, but it was to win. Busby took United to Europe primarily to compete with Europe's best. To compete and more importantly, to win.

    Right now it doesn't look like Mourinho is living up to ALL of the United traditions. The football is horrendous across the field. And as usual, the truth is somewhere in between - the football is down to both Mourinho and the players.

    But he has shown that he can. He has give plenty of chances to (local) youth - more than anyone's expectations. He has won a couple of trophies in his first year, has the team challenging for another this year. He has the team in second place in the league although not too far off from 3rd and 4th. He has the team still competing in Europe. He had the team play some really good football at the start of the season.

    So until we know Mourinho will not live up to the traditions, let's get behind the team and the manager, shall we? After all, another United tradition is to stand by the manager.
  30. Feb 25, 2018
    #30

    Devil may care Full Member Verified Moaner

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    This is a myth created by the length of Fergie's reign, we switched managers a number of times between Busby and Fergie with 5 years being the maximum run. Mourinho is what he is, I don't think we will win a PL or CL with him here but if we do it'll be his way, ugly grinding football, it's who he is and it's what he's made us into, we ground our way to the EL last year and are grinding our way to a top 4 finish this year, he has a very good set of attacking players at his disposal but the way we are set out with a negative and cautious mentality stifles them. There's nothing to get behind other than a result right now, nothing to get you out of your seat or make you feel excited about the team, it's just collecting points like punching a ticket at work.
  31. Feb 25, 2018
    #31

    Rifer Full Member

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    Ok, to be more serious. Thread is basically about trying to understand (a)the two labels "fan" and "consumer" of this club, and (b)what criteria/traits among our posters (without being specific who the poster is or make any reference to anyone) whom we can identify to be either a "fan" or a "consumer". No?

    So, each of us posters of this forum is either a fan or a consumer. Just two labels/categories? It's more complicated than that for me. This is also being related with the other notions like "real fans" or the other many labels. Again, it's a lot more complicated than that, and could even be debatable, and become a sensitive issues. How can we really tell whether we are the truest fan or not, or just here to be consume something about our clubs.

    "Pure consumers" aka perhaps the totally Glory hunters would obey this "Adisa's law"(?) :lol:
    The current state of Manchester United means they should have already stop supporting us, and are now pooling towards supporting the successful clubs eg. Barca, Real and MCity.

    Yet, the ones that are still here in this forum didn't left right, they stayed.

    As for the "fan" and each of us being a fan, the thing is each of us is a fan to different aspects of Manchester United. Degree of each need to be considered.
    To be more specific and clear, some of the examples are;
    • fans of the history of the club.
    • fans of the club's ideologies.
    • fans of the players. (past and/or present)
    • fans of the manager. (past and/or present)
    • fans of the brand "Manchester United".
    • fans of the traditional trademark United's exciting attacking style of football.
    • fans of the United's winning trophies mentality.
    • etc.
    As for being a consumer, we consumed one or some or many or even all of those things that we are a fan of. Each time we "support" United, we expect to be "given" those or even at least give a good promise/hope of it. Some of those are "dreams" or in a way "imagination", and the rest is more "material" and "visual", could even be a combination of both, which we consumed while as a fan. (Better words to used instead are up to you here). If we didn't get what we are trying to consumed, as a fan, we do something in response.

    Examples:
    -Spectating United play live, yet see that the football is too sleep-inducing boring, so we leave the stadium disappointed and hurt, then shouted "This is not United".
    -Spectating United playing on tv, and saw that the football is boring and depressing, it's saddening so we shut it off.
    -Going to watch United, and notice a certain player is not playing, online to caf and complaint about it.
    -Read newspaper and press stated that the manager is fighting against a certain player, went to caf and complaint about it.

    Simply, imo what I'm trying to say is every posters are both being a consumer and fan, yet at different degrees of which ones we are a fan of and which one we are consuming.

    As a fan of Manchester United, we consume via/through our own different ways of supporting Manchester United.

    Because we each have our own ideas and beliefs about it (plus our own different perspectives and understandings), hence exist the many arguments in this forum. This is normal actually. Just try to be more civilized and argue properly, with respect.
  32. Feb 25, 2018
    #32

    Janson Full Member

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    It could be that many "consumer fans" have moved on a long time ago. And we are left with the indoctrinated kids of our large fan base from when we were successful, who have no choice but to be stuck supporting us, and they keep campaigning to sack what ever manager who's brand they dislike, so they can stop being so miserable.:)
  33. Feb 25, 2018
    #33

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    This.
  34. Feb 25, 2018
    #34

    shaky Full Member

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    I always get a bit nervous before a big game, so I guess it means the results are the most important thing to me, as I can't really say I feel the same nerves going to the cinema, worried if I'll be getting a good value couple of hours of entertainment or not.
  35. Feb 25, 2018
    #35

    The Bloody-Nine Full Member

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    There are fans and there are supporters. A lot of you don't know what 'support' actually means.

    'Fans' do things like saying you will no longer watch the team play because we signed a player you don't like.
  36. Feb 25, 2018
    #36

    Giggs86 Full Member

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    Every fan is a consumer but not every consumer is a fan. The latter usually have couple of teams he follows in a number of leagues and his priority is getting entertainment. Your casual "I'm a United supporter in England, Barca supporter in Spain and Juve supporter in Italy" kind of "fan".
  37. Feb 25, 2018
    #37

    RooneyLegend Full Member

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    Those that believe that some of us don't support our team or aren't fans cause we don't jump up and down due to every victory have to understand that we expect better from our club. This isn't due to anything more than the nature of the club we support. Perennial winners, great principles. immense history and a mentality we've all bought in to. We can't under any condition allow people to walk into our gates and take the legacy of this club that has been built by great men and reduce it into something it's not due to some desperation for a victory.

    You see, Sir Matt was complaining about the nature of football people and their desperation to win at all costs even as soon as the 70's and how it'll devalue the true essence of the sport. How the entertainment factor will eventual lose out to a more lets win mentality rather than lets win and entertain mentality. At the end of the day football is about both, it's both a sport(thus the competitiveness) and a spectacle, hence so many watch it.

    IMO the thing that grates me the most about where we are and what's happening is that i don't actually believe we'll win big during this era where a purist of the game has essentially shifted the goal posts and turned back the clock after a time where pragmatism enjoyed lots of success. More than that is that this type of pragmatism, where a teams on ball ability is pretty much neglected doesn't seem like an approach that yields results. SO then I ask, if we aren't going to win major titles(League, CL) yet are going to play this brand of football, aren't going to follow club principles what then is a point of it?

    We're a country mile behind the leaders in the league. You have to be a very positive or naive person to believe we have a solid chance of the CL. Is that now enough to justify what it is that we're actually watching? IMO it just isn't.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  38. Feb 25, 2018
    #38

    Client6 New Member

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    Okay maybe this is not a really old United tradition but how far back do you go to call something a tradition? Was United always the "attacking, local youth winning with style" club even before Busby? United were founded 60-odd years before Busby became manager - that is less than the time period between Busby left and now. Anyway, I digress, this is not the point, apologies.

    You are absolutely right in that this United team is terrible to watch. I myself get more exasperated than excited every time watching a game. No two ways about it.

    But we have seen his Chelsea sides and they were amazing to watch in my opinion. Would you mind if we played like that and won things? More importantly, we have all seen what Mourinho can do with this United team. So let's give him some time.

    As to why it is not working out at the moment - they are so many reasons. Maybe we really overrate some of our players. Maybe one or two players that make this team tick are not in form. Maybe Mourinho lost the balance of the team that was established at the start of the season.

    Moyes was clearly the wrong appointment, he shouldn't have lasted even a second at the club. LVG's appointment was a BIG mistake - he was going to retire from football in 3 years and he was going to fundamentally change the way the club played football. 3 years is too short a time to do that. Mourinho has had to undo those changes and impose himself. It will take some time for EVERYTHING to click. It's been less than 2 years! It's been even lesser a period than the time LVG stayed at the club for!
  39. Feb 25, 2018
    #39

    Devil may care Full Member Verified Moaner

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    I didn't like his Chelsea sides either, I don't like how he approached big games at any of his clubs, I don't like his ractive methods, there's nothing about any of his previous sides I want to see become the indentity of Manchester United. I think he's had enough time and money already, there may be progress in terms of us having more points but we are worse to watch now than we were 18 months ago and we are still regularly garbage and negative when we face any half decent side, I don't want to feed Dr. Frankenstein any more money to finish his monster, I'd rather we cut the electricity off before becoming what he envisages.
  40. Feb 25, 2018
    #40

    Client6 New Member

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    Haha fair enough if that's your opinion and to answer your OP, no it doesn't make you a "consumer", whatever that means.

    Yes, Manchester United as a club, is nowhere near what and where it is supposed to be.

    I am not even a Mourinho fan! Never wanted him at the club but now that he is here and he is in charge and has shown what he CAN do, I am willing to give him his time, just like I would be willing to give time to any new worthy manager that comes in in the future.

    We all would rather have manager
    - who plays local youth
    - who wins trophies
    - who plays exciting football
    Mourinho is not ticking ALL the boxes but he isn't ticking NONE of the boxes and I will wait to see if we he can tick all of the boxes all of the time.

    Or just get SAF back.