FC Bayern 16/17 discussion

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Cristiano Lell, Aug 9, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. May 18, 2017

    Pink Moon Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Messages:
    5,486
    Supports:
    Celtic
    Are Bayern not producing any quality players of their own any more? Just seems they hoover up the best of the rest in Germany rather than promoting from within.
  2. May 18, 2017

    BayernFan87 Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Messages:
    40
    In recent years we didn't have any real top talents in our youth.
    Additionally every major european top club seems to struggle to include their own youth players more and more. Take a look at Barca: La Masia is always described as the best youth academy on world, however, aside from Sergi Roberto they also couldn't include any youth players in the last 4, 5 years as far as i know/remember.
  3. May 18, 2017

    Blackwidow Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2011
    Messages:
    5,326
    And an interview with Xabi Alonso in German and Spanish (there is undertitles in English) with some farewell wishes of several persons at the end of it. (I guess you will enjoy what Stevie G. has to say at around 17:00... - I never knew that Britains have humour... :cool::D)

  4. May 18, 2017

    strongwalker Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    2,313
    Location:
    2km from Olympiastadion München
    Supports:
    FC Bayern München
    that is a complex issue. The more money is poured into the market even outside that obscure ex-european island :D, and unproportionally so to the top teams, the harder it becomes for new talent to make it directly into one of those teams as it always would mean: He has to be better than an established player, most likely a seasoned international one from one of the major countries.
    Few have that quality immediately, and even fewer coaches are willing to take that risk; If an established player underperforms, well that is how it is; if a youngster underperforms in an important match and you are the idiot who benched the established player in favor of him, you are, well, the idiot; and who wants to be the fool who just jinxed away a possible big title and a couple of 10Mio, after all, you're being paid for winning.
    That is no excuse for Bayerns underperformance recently in the youth sector, although its always been a bit of a gamble, sometimes just no one you got in your under-18 has it. But still the issue is recognised as being one, and Bayern just this week replaced their sub-par youth facility with a shiny new one costing 100Mio€, and is currently staffing it with top coaches all around. Now all they need is a Management hiring a head coach willing to use them wisely. This, i imagine, will be the hard bit.
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  5. May 18, 2017

    MarkK New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2013
    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayern Munich
    I must admit I am not too happy with Bayern's recent development. Last year's 1st team (the one that played in important games) was really ageing and Ancelotti doesn't seem to give the young players a lot of confidence. Kimmich, Sanches, Coman, even though partially troubled by injuries, didn't develop further and I think the generation problem that has been loomin for the last 2 years has only got worse. I wish that I could say I see a long-term plan but right now I am a bit afraid that after the demise of Alonso and Lahm, and the continuing inevitable decline of some other ageing players we will need some time to rebuild. I hope that we will see at least 1-2 more substantial signings that really address this age problem. Süle was a good start, but we need a couple more top-notch offensive players who can take the burden off the shoulders of Ribery, Robben etc. If we are lucky, they can have another good season, but decline at this age can come quickly. Another severe injury, and these two will probably not recover. Right now, I'm not really convinced if Ancelotti is a coach who has enough faith in young players to give them space to develop. I hope I'm wrong but in my book especially Kimmich should have been played a lot more often last season.
  6. May 18, 2017

    Ryan7 Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,140
    I've not really seen much of Alonso for a while. Is he retiring at the right time? Or do you (Bayern fans and others) think he still could of offered something?

    I see he's made 34 starts this season, which sounds a lot for a 35 year old.
  7. May 18, 2017

    MarkK New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2013
    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayern Munich
    It was a pleasure to see Alonso in the last years. One of the most humble and likeable footballers I have witnessed.

    Nevertheless, you could see, especially in difficult games, that he was starting to get too slow. So I personally think it was the right time to retire. It would have been a pity to see him decline and he has found the right time so that we will remember him as the great player he was. Mind you, he leaves some big footsteps because he was still a seasoned, utterly clever strategist in midfield but time has come for younger players (Kimmich?) to step up now.
  8. May 18, 2017

    GhastlyHun Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Messages:
    4,174
    Location:
    Approaching threateningly
    Supports:
    Bayern München
    Yes he is. He could still play in one of the big leagues, sure, but no longer at one of the top clubs.
  9. May 19, 2017

    Sly Hang Ten

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2013
    Messages:
    8,297
    Location:
    Lisbon
    Supports:
    Sporting Clube Portugal
    Goretzka is comfortably the better player. I think it will remain so in the future as well. Like i said multiple times, Bayern should loan Sanches. Let's see what he does in an enviroment with less pressure, with actual playing time, to see how he evolves. I'm highly skeptical about him having a succesfull career at Bayern atm. I could be wrong ofc but i think Bayern will move on sooner or later.
  10. May 19, 2017

    do.ob Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2010
    Messages:
    4,396
    Location:
    Germany
    Given that Goretzka's contract is due to expire next year I wouldn't read too much into Bayern's supposed interest in him, since they might simply be looking for a bargain. It's not exactly uncommon for them to use such a situation to their advantage by tapping up the player and then low-balling his club, thus putting them beteween a rock and a hard place, especially since Bochum [LG's former club] would afaik get a big percentage of any fee.

    I'm also not sure if such a transfer would make sense for either sense. Goretzka has been playing professional football as a regular starter since he was 17, so I doubt he'd be very happy as a luxury option and while he's definitely a decent player and very talented I'm not convinced that he's good enough to play an important role at Bayern yet.
  11. May 19, 2017

    gaucho_10 Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,792
    Still burying your head into the sand I see. The only team that got cheated was Madrid.

    First in Munich when the ref gave you non existent penalty.
    Then in Madrid when Vidal didn't get sent of for elbowing purposely Kroos in the face in 54th minute (he was on a yellow already).
    Then you scored from offside to make it into extra time.

    Only after all of that happened at our expense you got cheated for the offside goal.
  12. May 19, 2017

    Blackwidow Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2011
    Messages:
    5,326
    What irritates me the most is that the talks happened in the light of the day with the press following at Säbener Straße. That is not really typically for Bayern - especially that the press knows exactly when the agent arrives and are on the airport for it... Looks more like the agent wants to get his player in a better position for further talks e.g. with Schalke...
  13. May 19, 2017

    BayernFan87 Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Messages:
    40
    What a great guy. I will really miss him and Lahm not only as players but also as great personalities.
  14. May 19, 2017

    Cristiano Lell Global FA Rules Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,550
    Location:
    Berlin
    Supports:
    Bayern München
    Alonso is a great guy, a great player and I'm glad he spent some time at our club, even if it came rather unexpectedly.
    However, the total catastrophy of a performance he delivered at the Bernabeu, not the first of the kind in big games by him, though IMO the worst, shows he shouldn't start for us anymore, and it's probably a good time to retire.
    He arguably took time away from young players that should have gotten more time this last season (not his fault obviously, coaches like experience), and sadly he wasn't up to par anymore when it mattered the most, although he had his fair share of good games too.
  15. May 19, 2017

    Infordin Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,461
    Supports:
    Barcelona
    Bayern had two clear cut chances denied because of wrong offside before that happened. Once for Muller in the first leg, and one for Lewandowski in the second leg.
  16. May 20, 2017

    Blackwidow Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2011
    Messages:
    5,326
    Would not surprise me to see some Linkin Park tomorrow in the Allianz Arena... that see you shortly sounds a little like this. The Bayern players already met them in Shanghai 2 years ago and they were on a private visit in the Allianz Arena last season.

  17. May 20, 2017

    Eboue makes tonnes of posts

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2011
    Messages:
    40,938
    Location:
    Endorsed by the United Nations
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    but why
  18. May 20, 2017

    CookieMonster Full Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2015
    Messages:
    81
    Supports:
    FC Bayern München
    Cause Bavarian food is great :drool:
  19. May 20, 2017

    Cristiano Lell Global FA Rules Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,550
    Location:
    Berlin
    Supports:
    Bayern München
    Feel the sudden urge to gouge my eyes out
  20. May 20, 2017

    Macern Searches images of footballers ballsacks

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Messages:
    8,190
    Location:
    Oslo
    Feel free to do it
  21. May 20, 2017

    Blackwidow Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2011
    Messages:
    5,326


    In difference to a long interview on youtube from yesterday this has english subtitles.
  22. May 21, 2017

    prtk0811 Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,210
    Both Barcelona and Bayern have stopped developing young players from academy, moved away from their principles.
  23. May 21, 2017

    BavarianPride Full Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2013
    Messages:
    271
    Location:
    The Reich
    Supports:
    Bayern Munich
    Bayern is always expected to win the league, now it is even expected that the team plays a significant role in CL. Every manager who doesn't fullfill these goals is under constant media pressure, thats why its so hard for talents to play. One needs to be nearly instant world-class, even proven players like Götze didn't get that much time.
  24. May 21, 2017

    plex New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2010
    Messages:
    177
    True, this is also the reason why Bayern spent about 70M € for a new youth academy centre, which will be inaugurated in the summer. However, it's also difficult to get playing time when there is pressure to win every game.
  25. May 21, 2017

    MarkK New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2013
    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayern Munich
    I agree. This seems to be true with all "major clubs" (I really don't like this term). When even La Masia doesn't produce first team players anymore it just shows that the gap between youth teams and first teams is becoming too big. The big clubs have so much transfer money at hand that they really can't take the risk to develop their youngsters. Noone would understand if Madrid, Bayern, Barca, Juve... got knocked out of the Champions League because one of the youngsters had made a mistake that cost them dearly. And making mistakes is a part of a young player's development. So, youngsters don't play anymore.

    The last time that Bayern threw some youngsters (in that case Müller, Alaba and Badstuber) straight into the first team was under van Gaal. And he could do it because expectations were definitely a lot lower at that time. Nowadays even Kimmich, Coman and Sanches struggle to get enough minutes because the standards have risen. Which is a shame because homegrown youngsters are the most loved players in every squad.
  26. May 22, 2017

    SirMattBugsby Full Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,304
    Location:
    In the house!
    While I agree that this is what happens, I find two problems with it.

    First, on getting success from youth development, clubs often turn to signing established players and essentially give up the method that made them successful in the first place. A good example of this is Barça midfield. No amount of money and mercenaries can replicate the understanding among midfielders taught at La Masia.

    Second, if a youth academy product is good enough, his quality shines through despite the weaknesses of his age and inexperience. In the beginning of this season itself, Kimmich bailed Bayern out at least a couple of times. It was he who should have kept Müller out of the team, not Alonso.

    So the consensus that playing youth at the highest level is risky, is flawed imo. Not only is ignoring academy products detrimental in the longer term, it might actually be giving worse results in the shorter term as well. I hope Barça, Bayern and United realize that. After all, these three clubs owe a lot of their success to the youth philosophy.
  27. May 25, 2017

    van der star newprawn warrior

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2012
    Messages:
    4,653
    Location:
    San Siro
    Sad times for Bayern. Next season they'll be without Lahm and Alonso, but the biggest miss will probably be Arsenal in the CL.
  28. May 25, 2017

    uamini Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    Berlin
    Regarding Bayern's youth players, I just browsed through the German national youth rosters and checked how often Bayern players come up.

    U21: 0
    U20: 0
    U19: 1
    U18: 0
    U17: 2
    U16: 2
    U15: 1

    That's 6 players...while they seem to be doing better in the younger squads, it's still pretty low. Let's compare that to other teams.

    Leipzig: 12 players
    Hertha: 11 players
    Dortmund: 10 players
    Hoffenheim: 9 players
    Wolfsburg: 9 players
    Köln: 7 players
    Hamburg: 7 players
    Stuttgart: 7 players
    Leverkusen: 6 players
    Schalke: 4 players
    Mönchengladbach: 4 players

    Bayern just isn't doing a good job in the youth department.
    Also worth noting is that Bundesliga used to have a gentleman's agreement to not steal away each other's youth players. This pretty much ended with Rangnick's projects. Hoffenheim started buying underage players left and right and now Leipzig is doing the same.
  29. May 25, 2017

    do.ob Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2010
    Messages:
    4,396
    Location:
    Germany
    I think those stats are often misleading. For Bundesliga clubs it's quality over quantity: Schalke are last in your list, yet they have had an endless stream of good players coming from their academy. Clubs like Wolfsburg and Hoffenheim are high up that list, but they completely pale in comparison. Foreigners are another factor your list doesn't account for, be it "real ones" like Alaba or Pulisic or players who get poached by other nations, like Kolasinac or Sahin.
  30. May 25, 2017

    uamini Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    Berlin
    I agree that the list has its flaws, however I diasgree that it's misleading.
    So yes, foreigners are not included here but I'd say that a) all teams have foreign youth players, b) foreign national teams have varying quality levels so it's impossible to compare them and c) the vast majority of youth players on those squads are German.
    Quality over quantity is a correct assessment however this list shows the quantity of (german) quality players so the odds of finding a gem are directly related to it. I'm also puzzled by Schalke's low spot since their youth teams are consistently performing well...not sure what the explanation for this is.

    The main point still stands though: A team like Bayern that has a huge financial advantage over everyone else in Germany should be expected to stockpile the best youth talent at least as much as Leipzig is currently doing and they have been failing to do that for years.
    They've been in the UEFA Youth League for 4 years now and have never made it past the group stage, that's pretty embarassing for a club this big.
  31. May 25, 2017

    Acrobat7 New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Messages:
    535
    From today:
    Bayern's Maxime Awoudja, Felix Götze (Germany) and Thomas Isherwood (Sweden) called up to their respective squads for Euro U19 this summer
  32. Jun 11, 2017

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Messages:
    11,555
    Location:
    New York
  33. Jun 11, 2017

    schwalbe Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    699
    Supports:
    Fc Bayern München
    Why? What's the reason for that? That makes zero sense if you don't loan him out.
    Apparently we're close to signing tolisso, don't know if we really need him either. We need a first class attacker, not another box to box player.
  34. Jun 11, 2017

    Javi Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    798
    Are they back to their FC "German Nationalteam" aka "die Mannschaft" thing?
  35. Jun 11, 2017

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Messages:
    11,555
    Location:
    New York
    I have a suspicion that this was sort of agreed to last summer. Sort of like that weird Zeki Fryers Spurs signing years ago.
  36. Jun 11, 2017

    SirMattBugsby Full Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,304
    Location:
    In the house!
    Probably means Costa is leaving. Gnabry can play anywhere in attack, which means back-up for Lewandowski as well. Makes sense.
  37. Jun 11, 2017

    NieThePiet New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    161
    Supports:
    Werder Bremen, Arsenal
  38. Jun 11, 2017

    strongwalker Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    2,313
    Location:
    2km from Olympiastadion München
    Supports:
    FC Bayern München
    i recon the facts he has the age and quality, speaks the language, knows the league, knows the culture, were a tad bit more important than the color of his passport.
  39. Jun 11, 2017

    do.ob Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2010
    Messages:
    4,396
    Location:
    Germany
    They managed to get behind UGE Neuer, so I reckon they'll somehow get past this five year old crime against Bavarian humanity.


    Not much to say about this transfer. Young, talented and probably rather cheap. They'll try him out as a squad player, if he performs then everything is great and if he doesn't work out they will move him on with minimal losses or even a profit, like so many other before him.
    Smart business.
  40. Jun 11, 2017

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Messages:
    11,555
    Location:
    New York
    Well he really does not know the league when you think about it.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.