Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by schwalbe, Jul 11, 2017.
Agreed. Never saw it working out tbh and never have rated him as highly as others too.. him coming to United would have been a disaster.
Perfect manager for a club at its peak and with loads of egotistical stars, but awful at a club which needs a upheaval or is on its way down and needs reforming before it declines.
Bayern need new blood and he's not the man to oversee that process.
Guardiola already wanted him as youth coach. Would be an interesting and risky choice at the same time.
I do not think it is the aging. Apart from maybe the hierarchy that should have been easy filled with the same players that are the bones of the German national team - but there is some media (from player informations) that say that Ancelotti already is the reason why Lahm finished a year earlier - it is only Ribery and Robben that have to be replaced in the nearer future.
But Bayern does not even have that star players or the ones that need star privileges apart from maybe Ribery. Robben never had problems with coaches like van Gaal, Mourinho or Guardiola. Lewy started to have his star allures with Ancelotti...
The rest are intelligent players that do not mind discipline and were very happy with the way Guardiola coached.
What Bayern would have needed might have been a coach to be a tad less on perfection - Guardiola was still correcting distances in the match when leading 6:0 against a small Bundesliga club... Not somebody that does not really ask for discipline, does not do modern analyzing or preparation, is not able to use all the intelligence of that team.
Somebody with a better man management - but not in the way Ancelotti does it. When looking at Heynckes he asked for the discipline of every player - especially of his favourites (he had them) and from Ribery. But he had a way to connect to Ribery so he called him his second father. Ribery was never before so disciplined as in the 12/13 season. He needs the extra attention, maybe the special role - but not extra privileges.
Van Gaal started Bayern 5 year project and it ended with Heynckes. Guardiola was bought in to start a new project and essential Ancelotti to take over however I believe the Bayern board restricted Guardiola a little in building his team. Bayern obviously run their club quite well and live by certain principal and not overspending on players is one of them.
Guardiola wanted Neymar, KdB and Sterling in the 3 years he was there, but Bayern board shut those down due to their transfer fees. I heard KdB was a signature away, but they didn't want to pay what Wolfsburg asked him for, it's no coincidence that both KdB and Sterling went to City (Guardiola next destination).
Kroos was another issue, Guardiola was not happy with his sale, but Bayern I guess wanted to make a statement they don't bend over to players, but lost one of the top 3-5 midfielders in the world due to their pride.
Essential in Pep final year the squad could've looked something like this
bench: Kimmich, Bernat, Muller, Ribery/Robben (one would've been sold), Coman, Alonso, Thaigo/Kroos
That squad would've had enough individual quality and good depth. Maybe they'd win a CL or two under Pep, if not at least Ancelotti.
Until Bayern board decides to actually spend on world class talent, they'll do well in Bundesliga, but not enough to win the CL.
They never would have had a chance with Neymar even if they tried.
Why do you think?
Because of money. Bayern would have never paid that much and Neymar costs obviously a fortune, back then as well.
And it lead to Rosell resigning and Barca plus Bartomeu being charged with tax fraud.
Had Muller not missed that penalty against Atletico in 2016, and Vidal against Real in 2017; there's a good chance that Bayern would be the back-to-back CL winners right now.
Honestly I can't believe that they've only won 1 CL in this decade. It really should have been more.
IIRC Griezmann also missed penalty in 2016 away game.
Still remember how proud Hoeness was (it was him right?) when he told the press that Pep wanted Neymar but he convinced him that Götze was the big thing so they bought him instead.
But that was after a counter attack when Bayern were chasing a goal. Had Muller put away that penalty in the first half, the game would have been over there and then.
I'd have fancied Pep's Bayern against Zizou's Madrid. Real struggled against Atleti in the final while Bayern dominated them.
Yeah still would have been 2-1 as they scored early in the second half, unless you mean if Muller had scored maybe the whole game would have played differently.
Too many ifs and buts though.
Simeone said after that game that bayern were the best team he'd ever faced as manager. Don't remember atletico being so overwhelmed since simeone took charge. They had no answer and bayern carved them open at will for 90 minutes(135 if we include the second half from the first leg). One of the jammiest, luckiest results in recent memory, according to Atletico Madrid themselves...
Best game I've ever seen us have. Perfect football. A shame we didn't make the finale that year. Don't think we'll ever play like that again.
While I agree that we didn't give Pep what he wanted, Neymar and Sterling are bad examples. I think Pep didn't mind us not getting Neymar. The problem is that we got Götze in his stead. Two completely different players. Like buying a freezer because the fridge you want is to expensive.
With Sterling, I really don't think he wanted him that much. He just desperately needed fast dribblers. Hence we got Coman and Costa.
But generally, Rummenigge and Hoeneß didn't understand Pep at all. When Kroos was sold, against Pep's will, they offered Khedira as a replacement. To stick to my metaphor, that would be buying a a new oven because you don't like the colour of your fridge.
The three big mistakes we made were De Bruyne, Sane and Kroos. With those guys we'd have the best team in the world:
Just for example. We we're far too hesistant and conservative on the market. Letting KDB and Sane go abroad was stupid and an obvious mistake. Especially KDB desperately wanted the move to us. But instead we chose not to pay Wolfsburg so we'd have spare cash for Sanches, Vidal or other players we don't need.
The Kroos story was something else. That was stupidity and arrogance on an unprecedented level and the worst decision in the recent history of the club. The guy actually wanted to extend his contract, his agent even approached the club. But the club kept delaying the negotiations until Kroos and his agent had enough and moved away. It wasn't even about money. Just stupidity and arrogance.
That's the whole point of my post above, is that they'd need to spend big and if they were willing to they were more capable of getting him. I wouldn't compare the BM board with the Barca board.
We never had a chance to sign Neymar, it wasn't just because of money. Even if we matched what Barca paid him and agreed to all the shady deals that made the move possible, he would have chosen Barca instead.
I always thought Kroos wanted to go to Madrid, so this is news to me. If it's true and Bayern got Vidal one year later, then no wonder Pep decided not to renew.
Müller can play in de Bruyne role so he wasn't absolutely necessary. Sane is the one who's being missed.
On some level, I admire Bayern's decision to not be a part of transfer market madness, which was especially prominent this season. But yes, there has to be a balance, and I'm sure Bayern will spend 50-60 m Euros if needed next season.
He may not have been that upset, but Neymar would've been far better then Costa/Coman and exactly the type of player Lewa was talking about that would bring that much needed individual quality to the team.
Vidal wasn't a bad signing tbf, he's been pretty good and still would've been attainable, but Sanches was a pointless signing.
Sane was another brain fart moment telling him to wait at Scahlke or something for another season, not like he was out of their budget what was he 35-40M or something.
I don't think Bayern would've gotten him, if say Real, Barca or maybe even Chelsea and ManCity were in it (big two and EPL pull). Bayern is not that attractive for A+ players, who are not german or playing in the Bundesliga.
Kroos wanted to extend his contract way back in 2013. His demands were quite moderate and definitely fair. But the club didn't want to extend at that point and told him to wait till after the world cup. Kroos played a brilliant world cup obviously, his market value increased and he basically demanded the same wages Boateng, Alaba and Götze were on. Which is still very fair. Bayern still tried to pay him less, he got tired of the board and decided to leave. If Hoeneß and Rummenigge weren't so stubborn and biased towards a certain kind of players, he'd still be with us and would have played an integral part in Pep's team.
That is the most bizarre thing in the whole affair. There is a great book about Pep's first season with us called 'Pep confidential' (amazing read) where the writer, Marti Perarnau describes in detail how Pep planned to reshape our team. Apparently, he wanted to attack much more through the middle, so we wouldn't have to rely on the aging Robben and Ribery. Kroos and Thiago were integral to that plan. Basically, they were his most important players. Pep was fuming when Kroos was sold. To replace Kroos, our board offered him Khedira which led Pep to a quite famous outburst in which he said something like: "nobody here understands me except for Lahm". You can tell from the book that this was the moment it got obvious to Pep that he wouldn't extend his contract.
And the aftermath? Real are laughing their asses of because Kroos is now the best midfielder around right next to Modric and Thiago, we still don't have a successor for Kroos and Pep is managing City. At the same time, we still rely on Robben and Ribery.
No, I think KDB was the most importand one. He is one of the very few players worldwide who can be a really good playmaker from the wing and still beat their man and even score. While looking quite differently and doing it in a different manner, he'd be the perfect successor for Ribery. Ribery's playmaking has been the reason we were able to play without a true number 10 for so long. KDB would be the player who makes it possible for Lewandowski, Müller and another winger like Robben to play at the same time.
KDB is the prototype of a Pep-player in my eyes.
Bayern also missed penalties (in extra time and the shootout), at home, in the Champions League final of 2012.......They don't live up to a German stereotype when it comes to penalties.
That Kroos business is defnitely haunting us, incredibly stupid in retrospect. Although I have to admit, I wasn't too upset about it at the time.
He definitely has matured and improved further at Real, which makes the decision look even worse than it was back then.
There's also the penalty shootout in the cup semifinal against Dortmund in 2015
At this point, it's pretty irresponsible to think Nagelsmann is ready for a club of Bayern's size already. Let's take Tuchel first and then Nagelsmann after he's been at another, a bit bigger club where he could gather some more experience at top or near top level.
So many wasted opportunities...could have definitely been more titles.
Regarding Nagelsmann: Of course he's not ready yet for Bayern, but who will come after Ancelotti? I personally think it's unlikely that he'll stay until after summer 2018.
If he's sacked mid-season the best option by far is Tuchel, at the end of the season there will be more choice, but it's hard to say right now who will be available. Nagelsmann would probably drop Hoffenheim for them, Löw might fancy a club job after the WC, etc.
Löw? Please stop already, you're scaring me! Yea...well...neither option sounds good to be honest. Tuchel was a big letdown at Dortmund imo and Nagelsmann is not ready yet.
Well, those are the realistic German options. We don't know which foreign elite coach will have a bad season and get sacked or have his contract run out, so it's hard to predict alternatives.
Interesting.. I've always had this suspicion about Hoeneß and Rummenigge. Are they becoming old-fashioned patriarchs who are holding the club back?
I assume Khedira is the kind of player you were referring to earlier. It's strange: why bring Pep and then not provide him the instruments for his playing style? Once again, I feel Hoeneß and co let their ego and outdated ideas come in the way of progressive football.
Didn't think that way but yes, he's definitely suited to Pep's style. I thought you replacing Müller with him because your eleven didn't have Thomi.
If Nagelsmann proves himself more than a one season wonder at Hoffenheim with a successful second Bundesliga season (like top 6) then I think Bayern will go for him to replace Ancelotti next summer.
The decision not to allow Jupp to continue after having one of the best seasons in European club history has proven to be a huge mistake over time. Pep came and did all but conquer, now Ancelotti has a squad where replacing the star players is a massive problem. Trying to replace the players of that caliber on the cheaper is madness. They are going to realize one day that instead of spending all that money on Costa, Coman, Shaqiri, Tolisso, Sanchez etc, they should have went big in the market and got what they needed at whatever the price.
I'm sure that was primarily a Hoeneß thing. The club offered him an extension to fairly low conditions. As Kroos didn't accept it, the club tried to play hardball, assuming Kroos would buckle down in the end. I still remember the press conference from Hopfner(CFO at the time and a 100% puppet of Uli) around Nov'13 where he announced the current offer would be a take it or leave it thing, leaving Kroos the options to either humiliate himself or just leave.
Hoeneß had some sort of beef with Kroos since he refused to take a pen in the CL final(which for a 21yr old who missed one in the semis just before is understandable). Since he bought into the belief of Götze being the better player anyway, and with Thiago having joined us, he thought of Kroos to be a non-crucial part of the team(as big parts of the fanbase as well, who were thinking Querpass-Toni wouldn't be needed). Considering how he was carrying our midfield for long spells since the start of 2011/12 this was, of course, a baffling assumption.
I'm not mad about KdB. The 75m Wolfsburg were asking for him were just out of our ballpark at the time.
I am not a Bayern supporter but, I remember thinking Kroos as someone like Fabregas a player who can play as a #10, in a box to box role or in a deep lying role but, does not entirely fit in any of those roles. Obviously I was proven wrong over time but, I feel I was not the only one who thought he was a bit overrated. I think some Bayern fans thought the same too.
Yup, very similar to our own Pogba in that regard. Kroos has found his best role at Madrid in a midfield 3 with one DM and two CMs. In 2013 Martinez and Schweinsteiger were more highly rated while a lot of people expected Gotze to be a BPITW or very close to it, Kroos wasn't seen as a big loss. Funny how things work out.
I would loved to have seen how Pep would have managed Ancelotti's Milan team from the mid-2000's.
Players like Pirlo, Kaka, and Seedorf would have suited his philosophy to a tee. Gattuso maybe not so much, but he likes Fernandinho so who knows.
I think that side had the potential to rival Barcelona 2008-2012 if Pep had managed it.
On what planet would Sterling get in that team to leave the bolded players on the bench?
Really? What makes you think that... was it the 200 mill transfer of Neymar?
Anything is better than the old guard, tbh. I'd rather lose the league in an exciting way than have FC Hollywood return. God, I hated the last week. So useless...
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