George hook suspended by Newstalk for rape comment

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by golden_blunder, Sep 15, 2017.

  1. Sep 15, 2017
    #1

    golden_blunder Site admin. Manchester United fan Staff

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  2. Sep 15, 2017
    #2

    2cents Full Member

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    Dumb, hurtful thing to say. But I hate this new social media-driven witch-hunt culture which leads to suspensions or, in the case of the L'Oreal model in the other thread, sackings. It amounts to censorship from below.
  3. Sep 15, 2017
    #3

    sullydnl Ross Kemp's caf ID

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    What he said was stupid and wrong.

    The rights/wrongs of the campaign against him are a slightly separate issue though.

    That said, even in that regard my sympathy for him is limited given that a broadcaster of his experience would be stupid not to know it would prompt a backlash. He's a controversialist and this time it's backfired on him.

    He's also used his show to call for people to be fired in the past so he can hardly feel too aggrieved if the same happens to him now.
  4. Sep 15, 2017
    #4

    17Larsson Not a malefactor just a lagomorph

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    He should have been suspended for his ignorance on vaccines. Totally irresponsible to be spouting such ill informed bullshit on national airwaves
  5. Sep 15, 2017
    #5

    Silva Full Member

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    The article also mentioned up to 20 members of staff wanting him gone. At that point what can management really do?
  6. Sep 15, 2017
    #6

    Red Defence Full Member

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    Well we're back to "it's your own fault for putting temptation in someone's way". Ar element here of sympathising with the offender and the offence a little too much. Maybe he didn't realise the backlash this would cause, but he should have done. Maybe he didn't realise because that is the way he actually sees offences.... not entirely the offenders fault. Pretty much the same way that offenders think.

    Justifiable reaction by Newstalk.
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  7. Sep 15, 2017
    #7

    Redlambs Creator of the Caftards comics

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    It was an incredibly stupid thing to say. In this day and age, rightly or wrongly, you need to think much more before you speak.
  8. Sep 15, 2017
    #8

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    I don't know. He's not condoning rape, but at the same time you can see why his comments got people's backs up. It's a tricky one, and I'm sure we've had the victim blaming debate many times on the caf only to go round in circles each time.
  9. Sep 15, 2017
    #9

    Problem-free Philosophy Full Member

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    I can't seem to find conclusively which case his comments were referring to, though I have an idea of which it might be. Is it still ongoing?
  10. Sep 15, 2017
    #10

    Rado_N Yaaas Broncos!

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    Say dumb shit publicly, get suspended, no surprise or even slight controversy about that.
  11. Sep 15, 2017
    #11

    sullydnl Ross Kemp's caf ID

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  12. Sep 19, 2017
    #12

    Barca84 Full Member

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    I'm surprised he's survived this long. He's a dinosaur who, bizarrely, has been invited to discuss subjects he knows nothing about and has inevitably ended up spouting ill informed bs for years. When I lived in Ireland I couldn't believe the man was allowed near a live broadcast. I was trying to think of an equivalent in England but the closest I could come was imagining Ron Atkinson hosting a current affairs program and how that would turn out.
  13. Sep 19, 2017
    #13

    Green_Red Full Member

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    In fairness that L'Oréal person deserved it.
  14. Sep 19, 2017
    #14

    Green_Red Full Member

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    I'm not sure exactly what he said but I get the idea he said that women should do more to prevent it by acting right, or generally dressing appropriately. But like I said I'm not sure exactly what he said.
  15. Sep 19, 2017
    #15

    Barca84 Full Member

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    It was referencing the rape of a girl by a member of the GB swim team. She hooked up with one of them, shagged, then got raped by some other fella. Hook's angle is that she should take some "personal responsibility" as she went to have consensual sex with another guy in the first place. He's espousing the typical views of a man of his background and generation ie if you go shagging folks on a whim you might get raped. That's the danger when you ask the opinions of out of touch, blinkered old men on current affairs particularly around issues such as this.
  16. Sep 19, 2017
    #16

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Agreed. "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" was so on the money. Social media really does bring out the worst in people and campaigns like these just make me depressed. People climbing all over to be seen as the most offended. Look at me! Look at me! Feck off.
  17. Sep 19, 2017
    #17

    unchanged_lineup Tarheel Tech Wizard

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  18. Sep 19, 2017
    #18

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Also the views of a parent who has a daughter the same age. His main issue was how risky it was for her to get very drunk then go to the hotel room of a man she'd never met before that night. Which is not an unreasonable observation and exactly what, I'm sure, her own dad would think too. He fecked up by talking about her "sharing responsibility". That's a poor choice of words. People shouldn't be crucified by the hordes for a poor choice of words, though. Ho hum. Everyone wants their pound of flesh these days.
  19. Sep 19, 2017
    #19

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    Pretty much. There's a difference between sensible behaviour and victim blaming though. If I told my daughter to take evasive action, not get blackout drunk around a load of lads and generally be sensible I'd consider that smart advice. Many would consider it placing blame on the victim. Not that it makes a blind bit of difference though, I'm still giving my daughter that advice.
  20. Sep 19, 2017
    #20

    Green_Red Full Member

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    wow, that was a mistake and a half
  21. Sep 19, 2017
    #21

    Green_Red Full Member

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    There's a difference between saying 'stay safe, you never know with people these days' and saying 'its your own fault for getting drunk with your friends'.
  22. Sep 19, 2017
    #22

    2cents Full Member

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    Meh, not for me.
  23. Sep 19, 2017
    #23

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    He didn't say that. He said she should "share responsibility" i.e. it wouldn't have happened if she hadn't behaved recklessly. Obviously, that doesn't condone or excuse the behaviour of the rapist. Which he made clear at the time.

    It's a poor choice of words, definitely. But should never have caused such a shit-storm. Doesn't help that's he's a bit of a boorish oaf who has been winding up the easily offended for years. He was always just a slip of the tongue away from being another victim of the pitchfork wielding mob on twitter.
  24. Sep 19, 2017
    #24

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    He didn't do that though? At least him putting blame on the victim isn't how I took it.
  25. Sep 19, 2017
    #25

    RexHamilton Gumshoe for hire

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    He asked "Is there no blame now on the person who puts themselves in danger?"

    "You then of course read that she passed out on the toilet and when she woke up the guy was trying to rape her."

    That is victim blaming. The danger she put herself in was going back to a room with a guy after drinking. So are we going to add some blame to every girl who gets raped after having few drinks now?

    An adult woman should be able to go the hotel room or home of any man she chooses for consensual sex without the risk of being raped. To suggest anything otherwise is victim blaming and that is what Hook did.

    Put it this way, if a man went back to a hotel room with a woman and when they got back to the room the woman had a friend there who brutally murdered the man in his sleep, would anyone in the world suggest that it was his fault for going back to the room with a girl he had just met?
  26. Sep 19, 2017
    #26

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    I hadn't read that exact phrase but if he said that, then that's an even worse choice of words than I thought. It's not hard to see what he was trying to say, though. In his opinion, the girl behaved recklessly. And if she hadn't behaved recklessly then she wouldn't have ended up in this situation. Of course adult women can choose to go back to hotel rooms with men they just met, while pissed out of their face. That's their perogative. A lot of people would think that they're taking an unnecesary risk by doing so. Especially their fathers. And George Hook has a daughter the same age, so will have obviously been seeing the whole situation from his perspective.

    I find the whole outrage about "victim blaming" in general a bit overblown. It's made it no longer possible to try and point out - on a public forum - that women should be wary about putting themselves in risky situations. Apparently doing this is the same thing as saying that they're entirely to blame if anything bad happens to them. Which obviously no sane person would do but they'll still get accused of doing exactly that by the virtue signalling mob who descends on them. It should be possible to hold the scum-bags who rape and assault women entirely responsible for their actions, while also pointing out that there are common-sense steps women should take to ensure their own safety. There's also a weird gender bias in this, where if a bloke gets mugged and has his smartphone stolen you can suggest that it would be a good idea not to wave round an expensive smartphone in a dodgy part of town, late at night, with absolutely no fear of being accused of victim blaming. Go figure.
  27. Sep 19, 2017
    #27

    RexHamilton Gumshoe for hire

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    I'd have no problem suggesting to a woman who got her phone stolen that she possibly shouldn't have been waving her expensive smartphone around in a dodgy part of town, late at night. I don't think many others would have a problem suggesting that either. I don't think you can equate the two situations.

    If a fella goes home with a girl and she turns out to be crazy and while giving him head, bites his cock off, you won't find many people going, "well, he knew the risks. He shouldn't have put himself in that situation". Why? Because 90% of men have put themselves in that situation in the past. But if a girl goes home with a guy and she gets raped, then people feel like it's OK to suggest that she should take some blame for putting herself in that situation. Actually you're right, that is a weird gender bias.
  28. Sep 19, 2017
    #28

    Green_Red Full Member

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    I never said he did, I was responding to @2 Man Midfield comment to his daughter.
  29. Sep 19, 2017
    #29

    Green_Red Full Member

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    No I meant you shouldn't feel bad about giving your daughter that advice. I didn't mean it to be taken that I Hook said it.
  30. Sep 19, 2017
    #30

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Fair point. But you get the analogy, right? Why do people only get het up about "victim blaming" in the context of sexual assault on women? Is it completely out of the question to advise women/girls they should think about potential risk before getting hammered and going to a hotel room with a stranger in the same way they should think about risk when deciding whether or not to take out a smartphone if they're alone on a dark street in a dodgy part of town? Why is the former "victim blaming" and the latter just common sense advice?

    Only if you ignore the physical discrepancy between men and women in terms of physical strength and the fact that the vast majority of sexual assaults are by men on women, and not the other way round. It's not a very pleasant thought for any woman (and a damning indictment of men) but the harsh reality is that she is more vulnerable than her male equivalent in these scenarios so common sense dictates she should have a different approach to how she deals with risk.
  31. Sep 19, 2017
    #31

    sullydnl Ross Kemp's caf ID

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    Let's say I was walking across town drunk on a night out drunk and somebody attacked me. Was walking across town drunk wise? No. Am I then to blame for someone attacking me? Clearly not. The scumbag who made the decision to attack me is to blame, solely and entirely. Plus if my assault got media attention I'm very sure it wouldn't be because the likes of George Hook were assigning blame in my direction. Which really is why people react to victim blaming differently when it comes to women being raped, because they're treated differently in the first place.

    It is possible to highlight the danger of reckless behaviour without blaming someone for being attacked and that's exactly what George Hook didn't to do.

    Instead he looked at this girl's decision to drunkenly go home with a guy and asked if she should then take some blame for a totally different guy deciding to come into the room and rape her, which is clearly insanely stupid.

    As for women avoiding risk generally, aren't most rapes committed by someone they actually know? So don't trust your friends, or strangers, or random people you haven't met yet, else you may have to take responsibility when they attack you. What a wonderful world for women to grow up in.
  32. Sep 19, 2017
    #32

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    We're going in circles here. The person who attacked you would be 100% to blame for what happened. And by using words that gave the impression he might not be, George Hook committed a faux pas. For which he is getting crucified. It's obvious what he meant, though. The girl took a risk and paid a terrible consequence for taking that risk. His point is that he thinks girls shouldn't take that kind of risk. As I said, he was probably thinking like a parent here. With a daughter the same age as the girl who got raped, he was bound to look at this from this viewpoint.

    It's a paternalistic, slightly old-fashioned opinion that it is unsafe for 19 year old girls to get pissed out of their face (she passed out on a toilet, she hadn't just had a few drinks) then go back to a stranger's hotel room. And it's an opinion that many might disagree with. I don't think it's an opinion that anyone should lose their job over. And it wouldn't have been, had it not been for the obsessive need for the great and the good on social media to constantly need to demonstrate how absolutely outraged they are over anyone who says anything even a tiny bit offensive or out of line. I agree that it's tough growing up as a girl, where being sexually assaulted at some point in the future is a far greater concern than it would be for a boy. But hey, that's the world we live in and it will never change.

    And I can't believe I'm defending George fecking Hook. He's a knob. With a track record of saying many knobbish things. I just hate that we're living in a world where knobs aren't allowed to say knobbish things without getting dragged over the coals when they cause offence. It feels like we've all somehow changed teams and the supposedly liberal left is full of Mary Whitehouse's determined to police everyone who works in the broadcast media and set out to destroy their careers if they dare to express an opinion that doesn't toe the right on party line. How the hell did that happen?
  33. Sep 19, 2017
    #33

    sullydnl Ross Kemp's caf ID

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    Aye, the social media witchunt aspect of this is a bit off-putting.

    At the same time, we're talking about someone who has himself used his platform on the national airwaves to call for numerous people to be sacked at different points over whatever issue of the day is stuck in his craw. Hard to feel much sympathy when a controversialist who trades in faux-outrage gets struck down by controversy and faux-outrage, or when people take surface-level arguments at surface level.

    As for him being fired for expressing an unpopular point of view, he's in a slightly different position to most people as his job is actually defined by him expressing his point of view. Newstalk give Hook the privilege of a national platform to express his views and his job performance depends on those views garnering an appropriate reaction from his audience (whatever Newstalk deem that to be). In this case he's garnered a very hostile reaction, to the point where Newstalk feel their reputation is being tarnished. Is it really unfair for his job to be on the line in that scenario? It's hardly a sign that he's done his job to a high standard, or that he deserves to be in a position where his views are broadcast to hundreds of thousands of people.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  34. Sep 20, 2017
    #34

    Barca84 Full Member

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    Ban this man.
  35. Sep 20, 2017
    #35

    Listar Full Member

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    If he did imply there is some blame on the rape victim, then maybe when someone punch him in the face, both him and the offender can both go to jail as they are both to blame.
  36. Sep 20, 2017
    #36

    Bobcat Full Member

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    Spot on, he was out of line with his comment but when people start demanding someone lose their job because they said something stupid then you cross a very dangerous line. Language policing is one thing, but when you potentially ruin someones life on the basis of a poorly phrased sentence, then it has gone way to far.

    This is a can of worms for sure, but there are nuances here. Suggesting girls can't drink in case they get raped is obviously mental, but suggesting they should not accompany strange men to a hotel room is not that out of line. Of course if they both wants to have some casual sex go right ahead, but if that's not the goal it's a risky thing to fo

    It's not about blaming the victim, it's just a pragmatic way of viewing the world. There are lots of scumbags out there and no amount of "tell men not to rape" is going to change that.
  37. Sep 20, 2017
    #37

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    You could certainly argue that he's being paid to be an agent provocateur. To say deliberately controversial stuff, in order to stir up a debate and keep people listening to his show. He's absolutely succeeded in the first part of that brief. This thread, for example. There's been some interesting points made on both sides and the discussion wouldn't be happening had he not offered his (deliberately) controversial take on what happened.

    Obviously, the monumental fecking shit-storm has got out of hand so his employer now feels obliged to sack someone who could argue he was doing exactly what he is paid to do. But times have changed and when the righteous online hordes demand their pound of flesh they usually get it. Once there was an orchestrated campaign to target sponsors they went into damage limitation mode. Sack him and leak stories that everybody else who works there wanted him gone for a while, to distance their brand from the controversy. Crisis management 101. We saw the same thing with Kevin Myers. Someone else who is paid to provoke debate with deliberately controversial opinions but misjudged the insatiable appetite for outrage that we're living with these days. Because he's not the most likeable of people (like George Hook) we're not supposed to feel sorry for him and anyone who tries to argue the toss on his behalf gets lumped in with various right wing nasties who have been bleating about free speech and political correctness gone mad for years.

    It's come to a point, though, where these right wing commentators are starting to make more sense on issues like this than the supposedly enlightened, liberal left. Which is an absolutely shite state of affairs. Journalists shouldn't lose their fecking jobs because they express an opinion that the majority might disagree with. That's a massively retrograde step IMHO and thoroughly depressing.
  38. Sep 20, 2017
    #38

    RexHamilton Gumshoe for hire

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    But this is what their goal was. It was another man in the room who tried to rape her.
  39. Sep 20, 2017
    #39

    SirAF Ageist

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  40. Sep 20, 2017
    #40

    Bobcat Full Member

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    Not aware of that, in which case, any attempt to shift blame onto her is disgusting. My point is that giving young women sensible advice is not nesscarily victim blaming. I don't have a teenage daughter, but if i had i sure as feck would tell her to not go alone thorugh certian parts of town at night. It's the same reason we tell kids to look both ways and make sure the cars sees us when we cross the street. Blaming the driver when your kid broke his neck won't make him well

    I got mugged once (i was shitfaced drunk and alone in a bad part of town). Now me being shitfaced does not really justify stealing from me, but i fully realize that it was not the best of ideas to do what i did.