Getting serious about clearing out mediocre, underachieving players

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by marlowe78, Feb 1, 2018.

  1. Feb 1, 2018
    #1

    marlowe78 Full Member

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    It's easy to have this kind of thread after a defeat, especially one like tonight.

    But what's been on my mind recently, even during the recent string of wins, is the fact that we don't seem to be very serious about clearing players out of this team who are not good enough to compete at the levels we're looking to reach. By that, I mean players who are clearly not good enough, not players like Pogba, Lukaku, or Martial after they have a poor game.

    Tonight, we started Jones and Smalling as CBs. I personally think Smalling is a good defender, but poor with the ball. Jones has been a sick note for much of the last few seasons (even more than Smalling), always has a mistake in him, and his performances, when bad, can be laughable. I can understand people who think neither are good enough.

    Our FBs were again Young and Valencia. Both converted wingers. Both 32. Both in need of replacement. They work hard, but again, not good enough to have title aspirations with.

    2 of our subs tonight were Fellaini (who lasted about 3 seconds) and Mata. They've had their moments but also have their limitations and been here for as long as United have been out of serious title contention. Not good enough.

    Then you look at other squad players...I don't know how Darmian is still at United. Blind I like but is physically limited, too slow. Carrick IMO should've retired last season.

    Many of these players are getting significant minutes in the team or are being started in big games, yet IMO they should have been cleared out long ago. This is another transfer window (granted, its January) where players are not being gotten shot of, we're either doing nothing or triggering options on their contracts - which, I grant, might be just to sell them later. And you have the nonsense going on with Fellaini, I like the guy but IMO it's crap that we're getting into a wage battle, as if United will cease to exist if he leaves.

    I understand that we can't clear everyone out at once, but there are positions where players could/should be offloaded. Yet over the past few windows, I don't think we've done enough to raise the overall standard of player that we've got out there. I actually think Jose and upper management have been soft. Part of the problem is that we have players signed to big contracts and other teams won't pay up for them, which is our own fault. And I think there are actually cases where we could've replaced certain ones with youth/reserve talents and been no worse off.
  2. Feb 1, 2018
    #2

    sdb4884 Full Member

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    Our defence should have been bolstered in the window. So angry that City got Laporte. We don't have a single reliable central defender
  3. Feb 1, 2018
    #3

    eat_grass Full Member

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    Which ones?
  4. Feb 1, 2018
    #4

    marlowe78 Full Member

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    Darmian could've been replaced by Tuanzebe, Fosu-Mensah, and/or CBJ. Carrick's place could've been filled by Pereira, granting that it's not a like for like replacement.

    Blind's spot could also be taken up by Tuanzebe at CB and Tuanzebe/Fosu-Mensah in MF. I like Blind but I don't see a future for him here.
  5. Feb 1, 2018
    #5

    L1nk Full Member

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    Try telling the people in the Fellaini thread wishing him more than anything to stay this. Not sure how many times i have to say he would be nowhere near the squad of a top team in the big leagues and yet people want to keep him cause he's tall and scores a few goals every now and again, attributes you can find in a younger more talented player no doubt. But there is seemingly a mentality that we owe him something because some fans dont appreciate him enough or dont think he's good enough. Simply should not be anywhere near the squad and should be replaced by a quality, younger, midfielder in the summer..
  6. Feb 1, 2018
    #6

    peridigm Full Member

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    yet City have bought all the defenders you’d want in any team and still buy Laporte. We’ve been pretty defensively sound under Jose. How many clean sheets do we have under Jose? Has to be a record number thanks to DDG. Our problem is creating chances on a consistent basis and finishing those chances. If we could get our attack on the same page and put our chances in the back of the net it wouldn’t matter if we give up goals like today. Under SAF we’d have at least got a point today if not a win. We have good attacking players. I just can’t fathom why none of them looked like they could give any fecks about the match.

    About the clearout. We need to get real fullbacks and additional midfield options. We can’t continue to rely on converted wingers for fullbacks and two starting midfielders doesn’t cut it for title challenging teams. Sanchez was a big add for us but it’s going to take more than a warmup against Yeovil Town to gel with his new teammates.

    We’re years away from having a solid squad of only needing one or two players in a transfer window to replace an aging player or provide additional depth. We have a long way to go.
  7. Feb 1, 2018
    #7

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    These threads pop up after every bad result like clockwork.
  8. Feb 1, 2018
    #8

    Sylar Full Member

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    Its a tough time to pop up whenever.
    After a draw or loss it will be seen as knee-jerk
    After a win, people will say 'cant you just enjoy the win instead of looking for negatives'
  9. Feb 1, 2018
    #9

    Devil may care Full Member Verified Moaner

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    The CB's inability to deal with pressing is a concern, but first and foremost we need to get rid of Fellaini, Darmian, Blind and Young, they are just eating up space.
  10. Feb 1, 2018
    #10

    Sylar Full Member

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    Tuanzebe should be playing ahead of Smalling imo.
  11. Feb 1, 2018
    #11

    Harry190 Full Member

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    It's the god damn playstyle people. Stop blaming the players entirely. We have no gameplan.
  12. Feb 1, 2018
    #12

    J_Red 11 Banned

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    Not sure if you are being serious or no but how reliable is this Laporte fella?
  13. Feb 1, 2018
    #13

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    Our squad is fine. It could be better but, you can say that about any club.
  14. Feb 1, 2018
    #14

    SpyLuke10 Full Member

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    These are the players who I think we should definitely clear out:

    -Carrick (already said he'll retire at the end of the season).
    -Darmian (terrible player).
    -Blind (not terrible, but not good either).
    -Fellaini (doesn't have any idea of his fitness, twice he has come back clearly not ready, once too many times, refuses to sign the contract offered to him, bye bye).

    These are the players we should maybe clear out, but these ones depend more on how they go for the rest of the season:

    -Ibrahimovic (self explanatory really, if he can get himself back to the Ibrahimovic of last season then I see no reason why we shouldn't try to hold on to him for a third and final season).
    -Jones (i feel as though smalling gets a lot of unfair stick where jones is actually the main culprit for a lot of bad goals we concede, how many points has he cost us this season through shocking mistakes, whilst smalling is not the best on the ball, i'd rather a defender be uncomfortable on the ball but defensively be a rock than the other way around, i think that it is greatly exaggerated in a negative way on redcafe with regards to how good smalling is on the ball, hes no pique, but hes good enough on the ball imo. this season we've finally seen jones get an extended run, and for me he has shown that he is not good enough, you can't have 5 good games in a row and then an absolute shocker where you cost us the game, smalling on the other hand has only really done this in recent times with that leicester game draw, but i cant put that all on him, whilst it is obviously partly his fault, someone else around him has to show some leadership and should've made sure he wasn't on maguire in the first place).
    -Mata (doesn't impact enough as a sub and i feel as though he will be a sub more often now that we've signed sanchez. i think he is good but i dont quite think he is good enough to start, id put him in the same category of how good he is to rashford, the difference is rashford is a lot younger, if he stays hes a good player to have in the squad but ultimately i feel that he will want regular gametime and i dont feel as though this will be the case from now on now that we've signed sanchez).

    Player I don't rate at all that I would sell if he'd been around for a while but seeing as he only arrived six months ago keep because he deserves the time to really show us if he'll amount to anything at United: Lindelof.
  15. Feb 1, 2018
    #15

    SpyLuke10 Full Member

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    I disagree with getting rid of Young, hes good to have in the squad for when we play weaker teams, I also like him as a backup/cover for multiple different positions, ie: I like his versatility. From this point Shaw should slowly start to take over that position in our team. Same goes for Valencia, I still feel he has another season in him, however I do think next season we should slowly begin to let Fosu-Mensah start to properly take over that position.
  16. Feb 1, 2018
    #16

    Class of 63 Full Member

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    Christ the knee-jerkers are out in force, we've got players like Blind and Darmian who can't get in our squad but are still regular starters for The Netherlands and Italy, step back from your keyboard and think about that for a minute, we're not talking about players from San Marino and Luxembourg ffs
  17. Feb 1, 2018
    #17

    reddevilzZ Full Member

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    People who are still focusing on the defense are either missing the real issue or being just stupid. It is really evident that the mid was close to noon existent yesterday and kept on exposing Smalling and Jones time and time again. Young was utter garbage today which didn't help either !

    Simple 2-3 passes through the middle they are running at the defense. What the feck is that ? Players have the responsibility to show some fight which was clearly missing too. And the game showed what Pogba is lacking. That was an utter garbage performance from that man !!

    Jose lost it tactically yesterday. It was pretty clear in the first 20 minutes that we were getting over run in the mid. They were targeting the left side which was vacant most of the time. He should have shore up the midfield after the break !! Have been watching us closely for some time and I would like to ask a Simple question. What's our attacking game plan ? Why can't experienced players like Matic and Pogba cannot keep possession ? I have been supportive to Jose for a long time but seriously he needs to get the team work together. We are too disjointed in most of the games and De Gea/Defense saved our asses numerous times.

    Chelsea did us a massive favour yesterday !!...
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  18. Feb 1, 2018
    #18

    eat_grass Full Member

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    I'd have no objections to those moves, except Blind and Darmian haven't cost us any points that Tuanzebe or Fosu-Mensah would have saved. And there's no way Carrick was getting shipped out until he was darn good and ready to leave on his own terms. I would have liked Pereira to stay.

    Instead, all three are getting far more minutes playing on loan than they would have here (maybe excepting Pereira). And that's a plus.
  19. Feb 1, 2018
    #19

    Kag Full Member

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    Standard deadwood thread.

    Last night we didn't score any goals - again.

    We had attackers like Lukaku, Martial, Sanchez, Pogba and an in form Lingard. We also had Matic in midfield.

    Which deadwood is the cause of not scoring? Or do we blame Darmian and Blind (who never fecking play) and continue walking around with our head up our arse, pointing fingers in the dark?
  20. Feb 1, 2018
    #20

    utdman New Member

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    We need to replace Young with Shaw regularly, we need to maybe replace Valencia with a new player in the next season. And I think if we want to be as good as City or Barca, we need to replace Lukaku, Lingard with world class players. I know people will not like this. But the fact is Lingard is in the form of his and life and good for him but he is never a world calss player. Lukaku is just not good enough technically for a top 5 club in the world. Martial imo will come good next season if he plays regularly.
  21. Feb 1, 2018
    #21

    BigdaftGorby Banned

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    We are not defensively sound, a point which you make but then say it comes down to DDG.
    Replace DDG with any decent keeper in the premier league and we are struggling to be in the top 6. How we are 2nd is astonishingly weird. We play functional, mindless individualist football.
    The games that DDG has won us or kept us in is the reason why is the best in the world.
    Our/Jose’s style of football is all about not losing first. Look how teams press us high up the pitch, look how we sit at just above halfway, look how the stats show Lukaku only having 1 interception all season. That’s down to Jose not the players.
    Sort the system then ship the players, you need to know what players you need to fit your system. And as much as we laugh at Peanut head and the bitters he shipped his deadwood and bought quality defenders, at a cost yes, but real quality.

    Sorry rant over :)
  22. Feb 1, 2018
    #22

    CA_vampire Full Member

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    I really cannot understand people that believe that by "clearing" and releasing players we solve any problems. Who is going to play? Academy players like Rashford and/or worse than him? Or suddenly we'll get Messi because our club is "clear"???

    Our problem is not "clearing". The main problem is bringing in world class players. First, you bring the good players. Then you release those that are not needed. Not the other way around!
  23. Feb 1, 2018
    #23

    Ace of Spades Full Member

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    This. Bizzare thread, considering none of those deadwood actually played. And if they did, then they were chosen by the manager even though there were other options to choose from.

    Overall, even if you take out those players and put your dream Muppet signings in there, I doubt it would change anything about yesterday's game. We look clueless from top to bottom, and it can't be blamed on players, not least on ones who did not even play.
  24. Feb 1, 2018
    #24

    Phil Full Member

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    Can't we just "replace" and "phase out"? You're right about our fbs in particular, was very nervous about that going into the season but Shaw came on nicely, then got dropped.
  25. Feb 1, 2018
    #25

    Red_toad Full Member

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    I Wonder when this place will react appropriately to the team getting beaten. Could see prior to the game the usual overhyping going on, then it's all gone back to crap again. Where's the middle ground? Poor tactics by Jose and individual errors caused the loss. It happens, but to want a huge clear out is just a odd reaction. Jose is doing a very good job with the squad and is about 2 players short of having a serious league contender team.
  26. Feb 1, 2018
    #26

    Andycoleno9 Full Member

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    I always say that squad can have couple of average players for depth but our problem is that in defence except bailly and maybe valencia we are loaded with that kind of players. Players who are not good enough for main roles. Especially for big things in big club like united.
  27. Feb 1, 2018
    #27

    Quizierda Full Member Scouse Lover

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    Our whole back 4 needs some re-build - yes, Toni and Ashley (most of the time) do a decent/good job, however, this is just not enough to compete!
    Our CB's are just a shame - Jones & Smalling are the epitome of overrated mediocre English players, Rojo seems to be a one hit wonder, Bailly is too injury prone and Lindelöf, yeaaah, don't know what to say...

    DDG is the only reason we don't concede a lot more goals and not Mou's famous and widely praised defensive tactics.
  28. Feb 1, 2018
    #28

    Jaybomb Banned

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    We need an entire new defence.

    Bailly is our best defender. And Rojo is a good option to have. But ultimately we need a top class CB like Pique, Alderweireld or Varane.

    Young and Valencia are both finished. Time to move on and sign Alex Sandro and somebody like Meunier or Sidebe for the right side. We really should have signed Aurier.
  29. Feb 1, 2018
    #29

    kthanksbye Full Member

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    Players with 1st team future -
    DeGea, Bailly, Matic, Pogba, Martial, Sanchez, Lukaku.

    Ones who should be squad players -
    Valencia, Lindelof, Rojo, Jones, Smalling, Young, Shaw (has the talent and time on his side to move to the above list), Herrera, Mata, Lingard, Rashford. Romero.
    Mctominay, Tuanzebe, TFM.

    Players who should be sold and replaced asap-
    Darmian, Blind, Fellaini.
    Ibra and Carrick should call it a day.

    Our problem is that we have too many players in and around the first team who should only be used as backup.
  30. Feb 1, 2018
    #30

    12OunceEpilogue Full Member

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    I don't disagree some of the players you mention could and possibly should be offloaded this summer as the likes of TFM, Tuanzebe and Pereira can take their places.

    However although the OP is at pains to point out this is not a kneejerk after last night's embarrassment of a performance it's a shame such a thought occurs after a game when it was clearly our star players and so-called senior pros who failed to turn up. The defeat last night is on Pogba, on Matic, on Jones, on Smalling, on Young, on Lukaku and indeed on Jose who still has no idea how to set us up in big away games way before we bemoan the deadwood.
  31. Feb 1, 2018
    #31

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    Valencia is a first teamer all day long for me. Jones too I think.
  32. Feb 1, 2018
    #32

    Oldyella Full Member

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    Neither are great on the ball but they were being pressed and if Spurs marked Matic no one else even showed for the ball so they would go long. Young was shocking which didn't help. He needs to switch us to a 4 3 3 and stick with it, we have never looked as good in a 4 2 3 1
  33. Feb 1, 2018
    #33

    Wednesday at Stoke Full Member

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    Jones has cost us a couple of games but otherwise he's been a fantastic centerback when fit. He's not the problem. Bad mistakes can happen to good players.
  34. Feb 1, 2018
    #34

    Annihilate Now! ...or later, I'm not fussy Scout

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    We don't need a clear out - every single one of those players can play better then they did yesterday. Was just a feckin' awful performance and unfortunately these things can happen.
  35. Feb 1, 2018
    #35

    limerickcitykid There once was a kid from Toronto...

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    The kneejerk and underrating of Jones is ridiculous. He's been great for quite some time now. Smalling too is just ridiculous extremes on here. He is either the greatest thing since slice bread or somehow useless deadwood. Reality is he is a good CB.

    Its just constant "I don't feel confident with Jones/Smalling" without actually specific criticism until they make a mistake or are beat which routinely happens to every defender I might add, and everyone crawls out with their justifications of how they don't feel confident about them. Bailly makes ridiculous mistakes and is all over the place at times but you never hear about how people aren't "confident" and other bullshit.
  36. Feb 1, 2018
    #36

    devilish Phil Neville's #1 fan

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    Darmian and Blind are played as fullbacks and Carrick was a world class deep lying playmaker. How could they be possibly be replaced by Periera whose doing well with Valencia as a winger and Tuanzebe who is a CB? Also what the hell did these guys do to be considered regular team players? What has they achieved? Haven't you noticed that throughout the entire SAF's reign we only developed 1 regular first team level defender (Gaz)? The rest were either sicknotes (Wes) or not good enough for first team (OShit, Mcnair and Phil). So why are you so confident that Tuanzebe and the one who failed spectacularly at Leeds would succeed were others failed?

    We need a well balanced side with reliable players who are played in their natural roles. No more wingers and midfielders in defence, strikers on the flanks etc and no 10s as DMs.
  37. Feb 1, 2018
    #37

    settembrini Full Member

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    We obviously should have got rid of a few of our worst players last summer.

    We finished 6th, 24 points off the pace, yet only one member of the 1st team squad was shown the door. Hard to see us winning the league with that level of complacency. Darmian surviving yet another transfer window this January is indicative of the problem.
  38. Feb 1, 2018
    #38

    MacabbiUnited New Member

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    While I agree the we need to fade Young and Valencia out of the squad, the defense is not the problem.

    The problem is tactics, and midfield. Jose made an amteur mistake yesterday. In order to not upset any starter, he just started them all and said "feck the tactics lets hope it works". It would never work againts half a decent team.

    Lingard while a good squad player and has some flashes of brilliance SHOULD never be a starter for a team with our aspirations. We need a top class CM to occupy the midfield with Matic and send Pogba forward. That is a must and first priority in the summer.
    With Zlatan leaving Rashford should come of the bench as a striker and rotate with Lukaku on all the cups. Plus we need a right winger to cover for Alexis and cover for Martial on the left.

    DDG
    New RB Bailly Jones Shaw
    ..........Matic New CM........
    ...............Pogba.................
    ..Sanchez Lukaku Martial...

    4 players in the summer. Were a good team. Just not good enough.
    New RB, new CM(starters!)
    Left and right wingers for rotation
  39. Feb 1, 2018
    #39

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    Neither qualified for the world cup. Blind is not and has never been United quality. He's an average player, nothing more, nothing less. The fact he played as much as he did for one of the biggest clubs in the world still baffles me.
  40. Feb 1, 2018
    #40

    Kag Full Member

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    And we still be in the exact same position, with few goals conceded and feck all scored.

    Your idea will have really transformed our team and allowed us to play quality attacking football, mind you...

    Sidibe and Alderweierld instead of Valencia and Smalling will surely make all the difference.

    Honestly, don't you lot realise how bloody daft you sound? Sorry, but buying any Tom, Dick or Harry solves sod all. We've bought Lukaku, Pogba, Sanchez, Mkhitaryan and Matic in the space of 18 months and still can't score goals.