Good read: "Athletic Bilbao's methods provide lessons for Premier League clubs"

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Inter Yer Nan, May 17, 2017.

  1. May 19, 2017 at 10:50

    Kostur Full Member

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    I like it how the brainwash works and the brainwashed tell you what you can admire and what you can not. It's 'tolerate the distinctness unless I don't like it myself'.
  2. May 19, 2017 at 10:54

    Revan Full Member

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    Those Russian clubs have never had black players playing for them before. So, it is in their tradition to not play black players.

    Seriously, where does the difference between 'intolerance' and 'tradition' is on the case of Bilbao vs Russian clubs? Or it is intolerance/racism if it has to do with race and tradition/admirable policy if it has to do with ethnicity?

    No, they aren't. They prefer Bavarian players because they are Bavarians. However, they give pretty much equal rights to players from non-Bavaria. They don't play just the best Bavarian, they play only if that Bavarian player is as good (or better) than a foreign player. There is nothing wrong with that. Refusing to get a non-Bavarian player would have been bigotry though. Which is what Bilbao does. And is very related to how behave toward players who want to leave them. 'How dare a Basque player wants to leave us'?

    Good for you, and there is nothing wrong with you supporting a non-winning club. There is nothing admirable in a club that doesn't win though. Barca is admirable because they play great football, win trophies, are miles better than Bilbao on developing players, embrace their roots, but are also open to others.

    And they discriminate toward non-Basque people (relaxed in the last 5 years or so when they decided to allow also non-Basques who have grown up there).
  3. May 19, 2017 at 10:56

    Revan Full Member

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    I love how the hypocrisy works. Russian clubs are scum for non allowing black players to play there, but Bilbao are admirable for not allowing non-Basque players to play there.

    Where do you draw the line?
  4. May 19, 2017 at 11:20

    Peyroteo ahahahahah feck off dad!

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    Their motives are different. Russian clubs don't do it out of tradition, they do it because they think they're superior to other races. The basque country is forward thinking and all their fans want for it to continue being this way, not because they think they're superior but because of a bunch of historical and cultural reasons.

    Do they though? If there's a german player and a non german player of the same quality in the market I guarantee you they prefer to go after the german player. I prefer a local lad from Lisbon playing for my team than a brazilian even if their quality is the same. Am I a bigot and a racist for doing so?

    Except that's not what happens at all and you don't know what you're talking about. The fact that they have a smaller pool of players means it's harder for them to replace players so they make it harder for a player to leave since letting a great player leave is more harmful to them than it is for any other club. The players sign the contract, they know the length of it and they know how much the release clause is. It's not like this happens only with them, plenty of clubs keep players even if they want to leave

    Then I guess we have different perspectives of what football is. I couldn't disagree more.
  5. May 19, 2017 at 11:56

    RedRoach Full Member

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    This. Football clubs are about communities and bringing people together. Unfortunately this guy is from the more embarrassing contingent of United supporters who believe winning trophies is all that matters.
  6. May 19, 2017 at 12:00

    DomesticTadpole Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera

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    They got to the Copa del Rey final the other year, but against Barcelona. They beat them in their equivilant of our Charity Shield, which to the Spanish is a trophy. They were devastated when they didn't win the Europa League the other year. Herrera has spoken of the players intense disappointment. They want to win trophies, unfortunately in their league they are more than not sliced up between Barcelona/Real.
  7. May 19, 2017 at 12:07

    Viral United Full Member

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    Different club have different prospective, Winning trophy is big part of United History and where we are now.
    Embarrassing is little OTT word.
  8. May 19, 2017 at 12:20

    Murray3007 Full Member

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    Cant beleive people are moaning about this, christ cant do anything now without being Racist, Bigot or all the other crap people cry about now a days.

    think its a great thing and every team should be made to have so many academy players in there teams.
  9. May 19, 2017 at 12:41

    RedRoach Full Member

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    Never said it doesn't matter I just said it is not all that matters and certainly not for a club like Bilbao
  10. May 19, 2017 at 13:24

    Viral United Full Member

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    Well my post it more about where you say it's Embarrassing for United fan.
  11. May 19, 2017 at 15:53

    Inter Yer Nan Full Member

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    Exactly. If Bilbao was the only professional club in the World then I'd probably see some of the anti-Athletic arguments, but it's not. They aren't denying locals the chance and if your not local you'll find a club elsewhere that will pay you more and if your really good perhaps provide you with the opportunity to win more. Now if your a die hard Athletic fan from say Brazil and move there but are denied the opportunity then I guess that's a bit harsh, but it's also an incredibly unlikely scenario. It's a Basque club for Basque people.

    Nobody is failing to put food on their table or being racially discriminated by Athletic Club.
  12. May 19, 2017 at 16:11

    Earthquake Pokemon expert

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    If you must play your football in the Basque Country, there's 52 other clubs to pick from.
    Even in this case, the fan would probably know of the existing transfer policy.
  13. May 19, 2017 at 16:27

    Inter Yer Nan Full Member

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    Exactly and would probably agree with not being able to play.
  14. May 19, 2017 at 16:28

    catmandeu New Member

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    So deep i am almost crying now.
  15. May 19, 2017 at 16:32

    catmandeu New Member

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    But i really admire that policy of bilbao and considering that they never got relegated with that policy will only strengthen their policy. I hope they prosper. However i would like us to give shape to young talents regardless of their nationality and to buy some superstars just to say real madrid, we are in it to win it.
  16. May 19, 2017 at 16:35

    Hugh Jass Full Member

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    Only a 180 out of the 1.5 million kids playing football in the uk will make it. Scary stuff.
  17. May 19, 2017 at 17:12

    oneniltothearsenal Full Member

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    Surprised at the direction this thread took. Can't think of any time I ever heard Bilbao called racist or bigoted before. I see comments like Athletic's policy "fosters ignorance". I have two comments.

    First, the theory that Athletic policy somehow fosters ignorance does not really reflect reality. Look back 10-15 years ago when La Liga had a lot of public problems with racism in stadiums and with monkey chants, bananas, etc. But these weren't coming from Bilbao. Luis Aragones, the former Spanish NT manager, made a famous racist comment. He was from Madrid not Basque country. Or how some tried to defend monkey chants as "a football thing not a racist thing" when the Bernabeu was experiencing a lot of controversy.

    There were a lot of famous documented incidents of racism from fans of Getafe, Zaragoza, Villarreal, Atletico Madrid and Real Madrid yet mysteriously the Basque club that "fosters ignorance" is notably absent from the racist incidents in La Liga while its other clubs that seem plagued with racist and bigoted fans, not Athletic. I don't recall Thierry Henry and Samuel Eto'o mentioning Athletic as a racist stadium whereas those other clubs are the worst modern offenders. So it doesn't appear there is actual evidence of Bilbao fostering ignorance whereas its pretty clear ignorance was/is being fostered elsewhere in La Liga in a less public manner but far more serious manner.

    http://www.eurosport.com/football/la-liga/2005-2006/spanish-racism-has-to-stop_sto842032/story.shtml
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2005/may/08/europeanfootball.football
    http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...f-racist-banana-throwing-fan-but-is-it-enough
    http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/05/01/inenglish/1398949209_194743.html

    Second, if Bilbao policy is bigoted then wouldn't the entire Bundesliga would also be bigoted for not allowing more than 49% foreign ownership?

    Or even the entirety of UEFA be bigoted for having Homegrown Player rules?
  18. May 19, 2017 at 17:33

    Acheron Full Member

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    In practice I see no difference between Russian clubs and Athletic fans were really discontent when two african players were in training along with the first team and under 23 team. There is even a joke about Bilbao players being born wherever they want because of they constantly have been changing their 'philosophy' first they praised about only using players from their academy, then they were signing players from Real Sociedad and Osasuna and that's when they came with the only basque players thing but even then they had to amply the territory, just to end up signing spanish players and justify it with the heritage; that's why people say basque players are born wherever they want.

    I mean is really admirable if a club deploys as much youth players from their academy as they have historically been doing but even they can't really sustain the team with that type of policy that is a joke because of the way they're always trying to circumvent that policy just to keep that facade. They can promote basque players and keep their traditions while being less ridiculous and embrace some foreigners, because they're already doing it and signing players from wherever they want.
  19. May 19, 2017 at 18:22

    Ishdalar Full Member

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    He didn't make a racist comment, he used a politically incorrect expression to motivate Reyes, there's a difference between those two things.

    To say something racist you have to be a racist yourself, otherwise every black man in America is a racist because they constantly use a word with racists connotations. You make a great point explaining how Athletic is not a racist club or doesn't foster ignorance, so it saddens me that you could fall into the same error with Aragones that people are committing with Athletic. Aragones was like a father for Eto'o or Engonga, was best friends with Luiz Pereira and had like 80 black players that wanted to talk on his defense after the Henry incident. We need more people like him that can love anyone despite their differences and refuse to give power to special words, and less social justice warriors that want to sensibilize everything that could be seem as offensive.

    Athletic are an example of what a club can be (not should be, as everyone is free to choose their path), the idea that you have a better shot at playing for the local club than anyone else in the world has to be the initial spark of their philosophy. They were slammed as racists even in the 90, but casually a lot of the people that called them racists were the ones that made it a big deal when Ramalho or Williams played for them, that's the best example of the difference between not being racist by ignoring someone's color, or not being racist because they taught you to not be it, but aren't 100% sold on it yet
  20. May 19, 2017 at 18:50

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    Exactly
  21. May 19, 2017 at 18:50

    Ishdalar Full Member

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    Really? Because I don't recall it that way, I remember Athletic being made fun for playing black players and saying "how could a black man be Basque?" with almost no Athletic fan criticizing it, everyone in Spain was more or less okay with them playing people like Lizarazu or Amorebieta because they fit with the idea of Basque, but doubted them when Ramalho or Williams were in the youth system, when in fact those guys were born in Barakaldo and Bilbao, it doesn't get much more Basque than that.


    And that saying has been known for years before the Athletic thing, it started as "Basque people are born where they want" because they consider themselves brutes and headstrong, and when foreigners adhere to their culture so much that they start showing those same traits they start considering them Basques too using that expression, don't turn it around to give it political bias when it serves pretty well to show how open the Basques have always been to accept anyone as one of their own
  22. May 19, 2017 at 18:54

    DomesticTadpole Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera

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    How many blacks are there in the Spain squad, how many black Spanish players are there at other clubs in Spain? Costa doesn't count as funny enough he was an import. Maybe the rest of Spain should be getting their house in order.
  23. May 19, 2017 at 19:05

    Dec9003 Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    I'd love united to create a philosophy of using mainly youth players, we wouldn't be nearly as successful but it would be cool.
    As far as posters saying Bilbao are racist, they've got to be wums.
  24. May 19, 2017 at 19:21

    Inter Yer Nan Full Member

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    That's what I'm thinking. I've honestly never heard of anybody getting that upset over Bilbao's philosophy. I've mentioned it to folks and they think it's great.
  25. May 19, 2017 at 19:29

    duffer Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's

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    I don't think it's racist but it does not sit right with me and I don't understand how it's legal. If my firm refused to employ people using similar criteria we would be sued into oblivion.

    As a Londoner, if Chelsea did something similar we would have never had Zola or Drogba. Man United would have had no Best, Charlton or Cantona. feck that.
  26. May 19, 2017 at 21:09

    Acheron Full Member

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    A fraction from them weren't content at all mainly because like you said many were making fun of them and their policy, things like that have happened before but this was just so contrasting as both players weren't born in basque territory and weren't exactly youth products of a basque team. And yes Iñaki Williams was born there and while his parents are african he has been raised and adopted by their culture which is great but I what I don't like is when someone comes out and says they prefer a black person who speaks euskera than a white person (vasco) who doesn't speak euskera; or when they shit on the hymn whenever they play in Copa del Rey final.
  27. May 19, 2017 at 21:43

    Fener1907 Full Member

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    It's a club that will continue to set an example for the rest for years to come. That said, I do get the impression that they benefit from the feeling of community like no other place does, with their patriotism even outdoing that of Catalonia. I regularly encounter Spaniards from all over the country except for the Basque Country, having only met about four people during my years in the country. No idea if that's because they naturally stay close, their government keeps them closer, or I just have a skewed perception.
  28. May 19, 2017 at 21:57

    cheeky_backheel Full Member

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    When you have a group of people who are from all intent and purposes from very similar backgrounds, they are more likely to share similar views and paradigms. If all the players at Bilbao are all 'Basque' then there will be zero non-basque input. What you essentially have is an echo chamber where birds of a feather are caged together. That fosters ignorance.

    This is different from a situation where I am limiting foreign input to preserve local content. UEFA homegrown rules are protecting the local input by limiting the foreing content. Similarly, the Bundesliga ownership method limits but does not bar in its entirety foreign participation. These are still acceptable, being effective without closing all doors. Bilbao is barring foreign input in its entirety. The preservation of basque content can be achieved by limiting the number of 'foreign' players (even if it is to only one player), but a total exclusion is a degree too far.

    As to the racism chants in la liga, most of those fans only do it to opposing players even when they have same in their own team. Bilbao is not exempt with pennant suffering racist chants at san mames. But that is a different discussion.

    People that are defending Bilbao's policy should imagine what the game would have been like if every club had adopted said policy. There would have been no Cantona, Vidic or Ronaldo at United, no Henry, bergkamp or sanchez at Arsenal, no Drogba, Zola or Hazard at Chelsea, no maradona at napoli, no cryuff at barcelona, no di stefano at madrid etc. At the extreme, even Rooney wouldnt have been able to play for united. That to me is very negative outlook.

    Also trying to justify their current practice simply on the grounds of historical events is just irresponsible. The past is the past, and nothing done in the future can change what has happened in the past. We cannot sacrifice the future in the name of appeasing the history.
  29. May 19, 2017 at 22:03

    483972 New Member

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    Miguel Jones wan't from Vizcaya. That was the old policy. It wasn't about skin colour.
    And the first black player was Jonás Ramalho.

    Anyway, the policy have evolved a lot over time:
    1º. Only born in Vizcaya.
    2º. Only born basque, last until the 70'. Manolo Sarabia's brother (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Sarabia) was going to sign for the club and they turned him down when they found out that he wasn't born basque although he has been in the Euskadi since he was a toddler.
    3º. Only born basque or players coming from any basque youth systems even if they are not basque.
    4º. Who knows, They have signed not-basque players from Osasuna or Alaves that they were previously signed for those clubs when they were 17 or 18 yo(imo that's not a kid or basque youth system product). They said they are "basque homegrown", but it feels like a cheat because they would have never signed them from any other spanish region at 17, so they used other basque teams as a proxy.
  30. May 20, 2017 at 00:00

    Hellboy Full Member

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    Good post. There are a lot of idiots on here these days.

    Nothing but praise for this unique club.
  31. May 21, 2017 at 16:46

    Prodigal7 Full Member

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    I was referring to segments of Brexiters.