Greek referendum on Euro austerity measures

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by rcoobc, Nov 2, 2011.

  1. Nov 3, 2011
    #41

    712 Formerly '711' but that was a ridiculous username!

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    You've missed the point. If they vote no they would be voting they don't want the loan and they wouldn't get it. Which would be a damn sight better than taking the loan, then over the next few months striking the country into a state where it could never pay anything back at all and defaulting then. A referendum would be as much in Germany's interests as the Greeks, in fact more so.
  2. Nov 3, 2011
    #42

    Red-Indian Full Member

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    Yeah fair enough. If the referendum doesn't go through, it just becomes a case of throwing good money after bad if the Germans and French continue lending them money.

    I suppose if the Greeks aren't going to make the sacrifices necessary to pay the money back, Europe and world might as well know now so everybody can stop propping them up.
  3. Nov 3, 2011
    #43

    Team Brian GB Baby Cameron loves X-Factor

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    It is the fact that the Greeks allowed the Governments of Europe to extol great effort last week on a bailout plan that everybody agreed to, and all of a sudden he has other ideas when they could have used that time to come up with something else.

    It is also how their people are idiots, thinking they can live to a standard of living far and beyond what Greece is capable of delivering, they need to join the real world and be more pragmatic.

    Though I now hear the referendum plans have been dropped.
  4. Nov 3, 2011
    #44

    712 Formerly '711' but that was a ridiculous username!

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    Agreed on both those counts.

    I have to say though that Germany and France have been dithering and dallying over this for weeks, they should have been more decisive and also insisted from the start that they would only bail the country out if it demonstrated that it agreed to the terms.

    There's a long way to go in this yet. Rightly or wrongly the Greek people simply don't accept that they are responsible for their debt, and in my view default will come whether that is sooner or later.
  5. Nov 3, 2011
    #45

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

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    Well Ioannis in the street isn't responsible, like every other John/Jean/Giovanni in Europe.
  6. Nov 3, 2011
    #46

    Team Brian GB Baby Cameron loves X-Factor

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    We can debate who is responsible but ultimately it doesn't matter - Greece is in fantastic trouble and depending on what exactly happens it can drag down large parts of Europe with it, I'd hate to think what the shockwaves would bring us.
  7. Nov 3, 2011
    #47

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    To be fair, individually they aren't responsible, collectively they must shoulder some blame. Just like the people of Britain should shoulder blame whenever the government does something they didn't say they would
  8. Nov 3, 2011
    #48

    Nani Nana Full Member

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    oh come on man, what a drama queen

    England has gone through a lot worse than that

    it's like people like you always need stuff to fear
  9. Nov 3, 2011
    #49

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

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    Well let's see there are about 10 million Greeks - assuming they cracked up 10,000 euros debt each that comes to 100Bn so where did the other 280Bn come from?
  10. Nov 3, 2011
    #50

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    The shitty government they elected. You know what I mean, when our government goes to war with Iran the people in the UK should hold there hands up and say we're idiots, we elect these people over and over again like a disease. We gave up our chance for any permanent change by voting away AV. We're fools being taken for a ride.
  11. Nov 4, 2011
    #51

    Team Brian GB Baby Cameron loves X-Factor

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    Do you know what is going on right now? Greece is teetering, if it left the Eurozone there would be a huge threat of implosion and hyper-inflation. That would send Italy and Spain off responsible for 100 million people, the French banking system would struggle not to collapse and the Germans would lose the loans they made.

    The United Kingdom exports £12 billion of goods and services to the EU each and every month - 1% of GDP - if parts of Europe fail, liquidity vanishes, confusion reigns and confidence plummets, what do you think happens to us?

    Anyone who underestimates this is a fool - I am a Conservative, I have deep founded distrust of the EU yet I am backing it and the Eurozone wholeheartedly right now because I am a pragmatist. The Treasury, the BoE, BIS, the CBI, all the parties and the unions are all petrified about this.
  12. Nov 4, 2011
    #52

    Team Brian GB Baby Cameron loves X-Factor

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    10,000 Euro debt per capita would be very low indeed when you throw in mortgages, loans and pension schemes.
  13. Nov 4, 2011
    #53

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

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    Pensions are investments not debt for the ordinary Joe. Greece has only got 21Bn mortages. So that's 2,000 per capita - so you're struggling to get to 10,000 for the man in the street let alone find the rest. Who racked it up?
  14. Nov 4, 2011
    #54

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Heard an interesting factoid yesterday. There are more Porsche Cayennes registered in Greece than there are individuals declaring an income >50k.

    Either Porsches are very cheap in Greece or the man on the street is very much implicated in their country becoming bankrupt...
  15. Nov 4, 2011
    #55

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    That's like blaming all the suckers in overpriced, negative equity stylee mortgages on our woes? Or is it? It is very early.
  16. Nov 4, 2011
    #56

    Mihajlovic Its Baltic!

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  17. Nov 4, 2011
    #57

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

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    I think you're confusing the man in the street who earns an average 800 euros a month with someone else (the elite who evade tax to the tune of 40Bn/year perhaps).
  18. Nov 4, 2011
    #58

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    I don't have a lot of sympathy with people who ended up in negative equity on second, third or fourth homes, to be honest but at least they're not knowingly breaking the law by indulging in tax fraud.

    Mind you, I've no idea if tax fraud really is widespread in Greece. Just seems strange that such a tiny proportion of the country admit to being well-paid, when there's a lot of evidence that this isn't the case.
  19. Nov 4, 2011
    #59

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    I don't doubt the working class are getting screwed. That's usually the way these things work. My point is more that the Greek population, which includes people with a wide range of incomes, can't claim to be completely blameless in all this.
  20. Nov 4, 2011
    #60

    shaydun Full Member

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    There is the third option Pogue, and that is terrible journalism.

    The taxpayer/Porsche story just doesn't seem to be true at all.

    Taken from boards.ie via reddit

    When you think about it, it really doesn't seem credible that there are more Porsche Cayennes than taxpayers (above 50k).
  21. Nov 4, 2011
    #61

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Ah. The perils of cross-posting Facebook status updates.

    Came from one of my more sensible friends too :(
  22. Nov 4, 2011
    #62

    utdalltheway Sexy Beast

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    just goes to show you; someone makes a statement that will appeal to the masses and every crackpot with an internet connection runs with it.
  23. Nov 4, 2011
    #63

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

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    Well they tried to sex it up but apparently only 5,000 Greeks declare an income of over 100K euros a year and there's a massive shortfall in tax revenues. Rich people refusing to pay their fair share as per usual.
  24. Nov 4, 2011
    #64

    utdalltheway Sexy Beast

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    there's some decent info on the BBC website about the debt and who's holding it. no surprise that the French and Germans hold the most.

    BBC News - Q&A: Greek debt crisis

    nothing about Porsches though.
  25. Nov 5, 2011
    #65

    barros Full Member

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    The Truth About The Number Of Porsche Cayennes In Greece
  26. Nov 5, 2011
    #66

    sonymobby Full Member

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  27. Nov 5, 2011
    #67

    mjs020294 Banned

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    Yep because working class men declare every penny they earn don't they. Back handers and foreigners deprive tax man of billion in revenue.
  28. Nov 5, 2011
    #68

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    To be fair, that isn't fair.
  29. Nov 5, 2011
    #69

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    Why is everyone so worried about China by the way? I've seen more people looking at China nervously in the last 2 weeks than I had in the last 2 years.
  30. Nov 5, 2011
    #70

    Eugenius Full Member

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    The motivations on the margin of tax evasion/avoidance is different though for the working class and the filthy rich.
  31. Nov 5, 2011
    #71

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

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    Do feck off, serfs get taxed PAYE there's no room for elegant tax avoidance at 20k a year (not that anyone should be paying any tax on that)
  32. Nov 5, 2011
    #72

    Mick1991 Full Member

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    Personally, I think we need to see more of that blonde Greek politician bird on Sky news. But anyway, if working class men do a few handy jobs for cash.......well it's because they need the cash for essentials not another gaff in the Caribbean.
  33. Nov 5, 2011
    #73

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

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    I like the BBC's analysis with Saphho Xenakis, she's so intelligent. The most stolen items from British supermarkets are meat, cheese and baby milk.
  34. Nov 6, 2011
    #74

    Mick1991 Full Member

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    Haven't been watching the beeb news as much lately (which is a shame because it is the best).Although I have been watching a heap load of France 24, I like the little debate section that they have.
  35. Nov 6, 2011
    #75

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

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    They've had a rolling blog on the eurozone which is very good, I just hope Sappho isn't sapphic.
  36. Nov 6, 2011
    #76

    mjs020294 Banned

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    Hundreds of thousands of tradesmen and the like regularly work for cash in hand. I lost count of the times builders, plumbers and laborers have taken cash just to avoid the VAT, let alone the income tax. That is flat out tax evasion and completely illegal. Most "rich" people just use the legal loopholes in the existing system.

    Its not a matter of any specific group not paying their fair share its human nature to retain as much of what we earn as possible.
  37. Nov 6, 2011
    #77

    Mozza It’s Carrick you know

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    Massive property bubble caused by reckless lending from the banks
  38. Nov 6, 2011
    #78

    Team Brian GB Baby Cameron loves X-Factor

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    Oh get a grip, do you know anything about China, about her economy, her central and provincial governance, her policy implementation, her corporate ownership or her legal system?

    How often do you read Government releases from Beijing, reports from Xinhua or the South China Morning Post?

    To try and use your same rubbish arguments with respect to China is ridiculous.
  39. Nov 6, 2011
    #79

    evra Full Member

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    That is indisputably true. Sadly it contradicts Peter's strongly held convictions on the "noble" working classes.
  40. Nov 6, 2011
    #80

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    He did just answered answer a question I asked. We have seen it before in Brazil and South Africa where expensive housing went completely unused when it turned out that that they weren't affordable.

    But honestly if China goes to the shit we may as well give up with money and start again from scratch.

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