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Group F (Germany, Mexico, Sweden, South Korea)

Discussion in 'World Cup 2018 Forum' started by Samid, May 21, 2018.

  1. Jun 12, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

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    We are not only talking about someone who provokes the German government but who turns Turkey into a fascist country, discriminates minorities, eliminates the free press and the separation of powers and so on. There are enough people of Turkish and Kurdish descent in Germany who completely antagonize Erdogan for what he is, too.

    I think that many people in Britain simply don't really understand what's happening in Turkey right now because it obviously doesn't get the same coverage as in Germany.

    Imagine a English national player saying that he completely supports Putin amidst the assassination affair on British soil. That's probably the dimension we are talking about.
  2. Jun 12, 2018

    Lagger Full Member

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    I know what we're talking about. I'm not from Britain. But while it is easy to vilify Erdogan, Özil is not the evil guy and doesn't deserve this hate. If you are from Germany, you know Turkish people. Emotional, not the smartest eggs in the basket sometimes, especially when you go against Turkey. And their love for Turkey is purely emotional. It has nothing to do with what's going on there. Especially if you're a privileged footballer having no clue about the plights of the simple men. He got asked by the leader of his emotionally attached country to do a photo session, even although he doesn't play for Turkey and never will! Look at it from the emotional side, it's really difficult to say no to that. He didn't want to make a political statement, he wanted the prestige that goes along with a photo session like that. Pure emotions, little thought behind it. Remind you of a particular group of people in Germany?

    I maintain, the hate they get is embarassing. We are better than that. They fecked up. They got attacked for it, they know Germans hate them now. Well done, now let it rest and focus on football.
  3. Jun 12, 2018

    do.ob Full Member

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    I agree with a lot you say, but the problem never was that Özil and Gündogan don't deny their Turkish roots or didn't denounce Turkey. I think in this case you really have to look closely at the trigger. It's not about what they didn't do, it's about what they did do: helping Erdogan get around his public speaking ban in Germany, so he can errect a regime in Turkey, that's at odds with the fundamentals of German democratic values.
    What also further exacerbates the problem is how terribly this incident has been handled by all parties involved. The DFB rushed the two of them to take a picture with Steinmeier and then thought that would be that. Özil hasn't commented on this at all, Gündogan issued some stament that doesn't even qualify as a non apology apology "it was never meant as a political statement" [when he met with Turkey's chief politican for a campaign foto op ... right]. Journalists are complaining left an right that the DFB is cutting them off completely, only allowing a hand full of official press meetings where the questions have to be submitted in advance and where Özil (who also had a "convenient" injury for the last friendly) didn't even bother showing up.
    I'm fairly certain that both of them would've been kicked out if Özil wasn't such a integral part of Löw's plans and if the two of them weren't represented by the same agency as their coach (which is also a huge moral question mark in this).

    I think all of this: Özil's and Gündogan's blatant disregard for German values, the DFB taking the public for fools who would just forget about this and the stench of corruption that whiffs acroos from Löw being tied to them via his agent and the DFB's trying to controll the press is just too much to stomach and the jeering of Gündogan in Leverkusen wasn't just meant for him personally but also for the bigger picture.
    I really hope the parties involved don't keep trying to sweep this under the rug, because I don't want to imagine how much of a field day this is for far right agitators.
  4. Jun 12, 2018

    Lagger Full Member

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    It's difficult to identify with the anthem of a nation that has politicians repeatedly point out you shouldn't be in the team (presumably, because black isn't part of the Aryan agenda, hi AfD :P).
  5. Jun 12, 2018

    Lagger Full Member

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    @do.ob I can get behind what you're saying. They are not my favourite players by far for many of the reasons you cited. But I think everyone needs to take a break now and reevaluate just how important this stuff really is. Pick your battles. This isn't one of them, as far as I'm concerned. Ring me up the second either one of them publically announces that they endorse Erdogan's politics and I'll be the one organising the pitchforks and torches. Until then, they are footballers playing for Germany and once we've used their bodies to perform in this WC, they can feck off to some mountain in the back of Turkey and rot for all I care.

    Also, we need to pay attention to what Hummels says... this whole melodrama is distracting the entire team. This has got to stop.
  6. Jun 12, 2018

    Lagger Full Member

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    Boateng was mentioned... are you serious? How is he not identifying with Germany? What is he identifying with? Have you seen the reaction of his brother to racist chants in Italy? How do you think Boateng should react when politicians keep pointing to his skin colour... he is smarter than his brother so if not singing the anthem is all he does, it's a pretty decent reaction. Kevin-Prince would probably turn around and moon the camera... lol
  7. Jun 12, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

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    For me, they represent football Germany and not the political Germany: The clubs, the academies, the fans, all of it. And football Germany is what you see in the national team. Look at youth and amateur football. German football is characterized by immigration and plays an important part regarding the integration of these young people. As long as they don't oppose Western values who cares if they identify with this vague national entity called Germany? Don't you think players like Özil and Gündogan make it easier for young people of Turkish descent to identify with the national team and root for it?

    I don't care if they sing the anthem because I don't care if they are patriotic. In all honesty, I even prefer non-patriotic players because I think patriocism is a pretty dumb concept and very old-fashioned. I would find it hard to identify with a player who plays for Germany because he completely identifies with his nationality. It is a different thing with values. But just because they don't sing doesn't mean they don't share those values. And nothing Boateng, Gündogan or Özil did (maybe until the Erdogan meeting of the latter two) suggests that they reject these ideals.
  8. Jun 12, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

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    I understand this and I am definitely noone who would have attacked Özil or Gündogan for it the way they did. Just wanted to explain why it is such a big thing in Germany and that it not only has to do with "representation" but with values and reluctance to fascist movements. However, obviously you know it yourself. Didn't know you were from Germany, too.
  9. Jun 12, 2018

    schwalbe Full Member

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    Why are we even talking about Boateng here? How has he ever shown a lack of identification with the national ideals? So weird to even bring him into this conversation.
  10. Jun 12, 2018

    Lagger Full Member

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    Because of this:

    Someone got a bit carried away in his agenda and I called him out on it. :cool:
  11. Jun 12, 2018

    shamans 1 set of sheets, optimistic about chances of sex

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    This thread just prove how difficult it is for migrants if you’re not from your country of origin. You have to go and prove that you are part of the country otherwise you don’t belong here. One or two small mistakes and you will be questioned for it even if you have helped your country reach glory!
  12. Jun 12, 2018

    do.ob Full Member

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    That's just twisting the facts.
    Rüdiger has a mother from Sierra Leone, Boateng has a Ghanaian father, Gomez has a Spanish father, Khedira has a Tunesian father and no one (except for right wingers) is bothered by their ancestry or demands declarations of loyalty. Podolski and Klose were even born in Poland and became fan favourites.

    Gündogan's and Özil's mistake was so "small" that the German had of state was immediately involved and the very nature of it was highly political and controversial. If anyone else from DIE MANNSCHAFT felt like endorsing Erdogan then they would have a problem, too. No matter where their parents came from.

    Trying to turn this topic into some form of racism or xenophobia is just cheap and besides the point, because the reactions don't just come from the right.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  13. Jun 12, 2018

    debiler New Member

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    I think it was profoundly stupid of those two to agree to take a photo with Erdogan and they should have known better. But they received heavy criticism for it, which should be enough. But the stuff you have to read all over facebook makes me cringe. It seems like some people are not satisfied until either
    a. They don a pair of Lederhosen, get in front of a camera and proclaim their love for Germany, eating Sauerkraut and Weißwurst and chugging a couple of beers
    or
    b. they get sacked from the national team

    I get the feeling that this incident was just what all those people who've always had a problem with German-Turks had been waiting for all along. They'll never be satisfied, at least not until our team only consists of Müller's, Schmidt's and Schulze's. Sometimes, I just hate being German. Because those tendencies will never, ever dissipate completely in this country. And political parties like the AfD tell those dumb, short-sighted idiots exactly what they want to hear.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2018
  14. Jun 12, 2018

    robbie81 New Member

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    If Müller, Schmidt and Schulze would pose with Gauland and the AFD they would be gone from the Nationalteam immediately, even though is the AFD isn't any worse than Erdogan.
  15. Jun 12, 2018

    debiler New Member

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    You can't compare these (hypothetical) scenarios. But let's play this game. If Müller were to pose as a publicity figure for the AfD, he'd recieve heavy criticism. You know why? Because he would actively and knowingly make a statement which goes against the political and ethical convictions of roughly 90% of the german populace. It would be a statement against everything his team stands for and against his own teammates. It would be intolerable.

    The thing with Özil and Gündogan is this: If there aren't two hearts beating in your chest, you can't possibly begin to understand the situation. It's the president of one of the two countries you're proud to be a part of. Both Özil and Gündogan have family in Turkey. I'm not saying they were pressured into taking the picture, but it would also not make it easier for their people back in Turkey if they would have declined Erdogan's request. Because we know how emotionally charged this whole situation is, we know how hateful people can be. You have to be aware of that. Do I condone their decision? Absolutely not. I was also disappointed and a bit enraged when I first heard the news. I guess they just didn't think it through. I guess they didn't think many people would find the situation appalling and distasteful. Maybe they even thought to themselves: "Look, an opportunity to show that our countries can find together somehow." Who knows?
  16. Jun 12, 2018

    Lagger Full Member

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    I'm not a modern internet hero. I'm just a regular guy. Which is why I'm calling for a moderate and proportionate response instead of making grand hyperbolic statements on a forum pretending to change the world. How about we get back to football instead of politics?
  17. Jun 12, 2018

    Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87 New Member

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    I see many people are already writing Germany off. As Lineker said "football is a 22-man game and the germans always win in the end".
    They are usually crap during the friendlies though.
  18. Jun 12, 2018

    robbie81 New Member

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    Well Erdogan falls in the same category, so it is easy to compare. What you want is special treatment, but since both are German citizen i wont give you that. They knew exactly what they were used for ( helping Erdogan to get the Turks in Europe to vote for him ), so he can further his agenda in the Turkey, which is building a totalitarian regime under the guide of nationalism, which you seem to hate so much when German's show it. That makes you a hypocrate and fuels the AFD and likes in Germany.
  19. Jun 12, 2018

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    Optimism is on a low point right now

    Most German pundits and journalists do not believe in this Germany squad to win again.

    Semi final at best is the expectation right now and tbf, I could see the tournament being a car crash and losing to Belgium in the quarters or Brazil in the Last 16. If they crash out in the Last 16, it would be the worst Germany at World Cups since 1938
  20. Jun 12, 2018

    Foxtrot New Member

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    I have said it before. I have a very bad feeling about Germany for this World Cup due to the curse of the defending champion. Their form is awful and the mood going on in the camp seems so serious and solemn. Too much drama and distraction. I think Germany will finish second and get knocked out by Brazil in the last 16.
  21. Jun 12, 2018

    Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87 New Member

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    You do always perform crap during the friendlies, tbh. I wouldn't count too much on it to judge you.
  22. Jun 12, 2018

    vadimivich Full Member

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    Yeah, this is about Erdogan specifically - not about anything else.

    As an example from Austria - David Alaba a couple of years ago had a flag he had custom made to wear when Bayern won the Champions League. It was the Austrian flag in the center (he was born here in Vienna) with the Nigerian and Filipino flags on each side for the nationalities he shares. It was roundly celebrated as a terrific way of showing his mixed background and pride in his origins. Outside of a few racist idiots in the "Freedom Party (lololol)" he got nearly universal praise for the gesture.

    Celebration of your culture and heritage is a joyous thing. Being used as a propaganda piece by a dictator who has declared your country an "enemy"? That's a serious problem.
  23. Jun 13, 2018

    shamans 1 set of sheets, optimistic about chances of sex

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    Thing is, why does the problem have to come on to the football pitch? Ozil did not bring Erdogan to the field or wear a picture of his on it. Any repercussions he faces should be outside the pitch
  24. Jun 13, 2018

    hasanejaz88 Full Member

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    Holy hell the amount of discussion put into this is insane and really indicative of the underlying problem. No way should there be such a lenghty debate on this! They were very stupid for doing what they did but they are both still Germans and have no issues with anyone in the team; that's the end of it.

    I don't live in Germany so I don't know what discussion is going on there, but if is anything like this, plus the disgraceful booing of Gundogan, it will only ruin the morale of the player and team. Get behind your bloody team and let this stupid incident go!
  25. Jun 13, 2018

    Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87 New Member

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    Beaten by Mexico? Difficult.
  26. Jun 13, 2018

    robbie81 New Member

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    There shouldn't be a discussion because a world cup is coming up?
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-jihadi-video-fighters-recruits-a8199166.html
    Erdogan has a huge negative inpact on the Kurds and plays a big part in creating the Refugees which come to Germany, if these two didn't want a discussion they should have thought about it before. They add legitimation to his actions and should be judged for doing so.
  27. Jun 13, 2018

    hasanejaz88 Full Member

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    Yes and Obama increased drone strikes tenfold during his presidency resulting in the deaths of close to 1000 civilians in Pakistan (my country), Yemen and Afghanistan. But yes, Erdogan is horrible and Obama is a saint; we all get the narrative.

    Politics is not something black and white like everyone wants to paint it to be. Person A is horrible and Person B is great. I've learnt that recently with the elections about to happen in my country and atrociously biased commentary being made about some of the candidates; you can't trust the foreign media exclusively for news about a country.

    This is what is irritating me, people are making comments about Erdogan, calling him extreme names through an opinion mostly based on western media reporting; and therefore using those opinions to criticse Gundogan and Ozil. What they did was stupid but in no way should I, or most people not living in Turkey, be so harsh on them because we don't have complete knowledge of the area we are basing our criticisms on.

    It was a one time mistake. Let. It. Go.
  28. Jun 13, 2018

    robbie81 New Member

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    Whataboutism much? They started the discussion and now you want to refuse Germans to engage in it? It affects them(me included), not you, so maybe you shouldn't be able to talk about it since you don't live in Germany?!
    We have a rising number of political refugees in Germany from Turkey,
    https://www.voanews.com/a/turkish-political-refugees-flock-to-germany/3993063.html
    which very well indicates that whatever is said about Erdogan and AKP isn't made up. The perception of Erdogan might be different in Pakistan because it is an Islamic Republic, which is something he wants the Turkey to become too, https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/turkey-erdogan-education/ .

    And the "It was a one time mistake. Let. It. Go." statement is just nonsense, they engage as campaign supporter to convince Turks around Europe to vote for AKP, which is something that influences my life directly, since Turkey is a member of the Nato and wants to be part of the EU.

    For the Obama = saint comparison, that is indeed a media thing and i fully agree with you on that. I wouldn't mind to not engage in any of the Arabian or Sunni/Shia conflicts, but that is something politicans in Europe refuse to do, sadly.
  29. Jun 13, 2018

    hasanejaz88 Full Member

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    My perception of Erdogan was mostly the western narrative, that he was good at first but is now overusing his power; I do agree that his perception in Pakistan is very different but I read a lot of foreign media like guardian. That though I've thrown under question after reading the reporting of the Pakistani elections.

    And you should also remember that Turkey also takes in the most refugees so they are also protecting Europe from a bigger migration crises by taking in so many themselves. I'm not asking Germans to not engage in a conversation about Erdogan but rather saying that they should rely on more than just the western media for their news about him.

    Anyways, this going off topic. Come on Germany!
  30. Jun 13, 2018

    NoPace Full Member

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    Would they really be kicked off the team?
  31. Jun 13, 2018

    do.ob Full Member

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    I think in theory yes, but the same could have been said about Gündogan and Özil.
  32. Jun 13, 2018

    Blackwidow Full Member

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    As much as I hate it, but the AFD is a legal party in Germany who is part of the Bundestag. You could not kick a player because of that.
    But the reaction of the German fans would be similar.
  33. Jun 13, 2018

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    The squad would call for them to be axed for sure. The AfD has made personal attacks on Boateng, I don‘t think he could stand playing with people who support such views.
  34. Jun 14, 2018

    vadimivich Full Member

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    He hasn't apologized or even tried to explain himself. Tough to feel sympathy.
  35. Jun 14, 2018

    robbie81 New Member

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    The thing is, both love to be celebrated when the media paints them as role model for integration. So it's hard to feel sorry for someone who endorse someone who propagates nationalism, islamism and a totalitarian regime and gets criticised for it. The DFB is btw busy adding a level of racism to the case just for protection of them, not a good look imo. Apparently you can't be critical of Erdogan unless you hate Turks.....
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2018
  36. Jun 14, 2018

    GhastlyHun Full Member

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    I think this whole Gündözil thing has gone on long enough now. Everybody has had his chance to display some righteous fury, and now we should let the guys play football again.
  37. Jun 14, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

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    I think the Gauland/Hummels thing would be a different case, honestly. After all Erdogan still is the head of state and the country's most important representative. When the German national team meets Angela Merkel this doesn't mean that the DFB or the players/coaches etc. support the CDU. Noone would argue that these meetings are political statements or support Merkel's election campaign. But if Hummels would take a picture with Gauland it would definitely be a political statement because Gauland is no official representative of the government.

    Honestly, I don't think Özil or Gündogan support what's going on in Turkey. They probably saw it in the same way the see the Merkel meetings, just as a superficial and "innocent" PR event and also as an opportunity to present themselves to their Turkish fans and support their very own projects in Turkey (like the shopping center Gündogan wants to build). Obviously they tremendously underestimated the consequences of their actions and allowed themselves to be instrumentalized for very despiteful political campaigns. But I think people go too far when they interpret it as an alienation of Western values in favour of despotism and fascism. It wasn't a political statement but just a naive action of two footballers who don't really know what they were doing.
  38. Jun 14, 2018

    keener Full Member

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    I'm pulling so hard for Mexico which is such a strange feeling seeing as how i'm 'Merican.
  39. Jun 14, 2018

    Blackwidow Full Member

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    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  40. Jun 16, 2018

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    Low just confirmed on German TV that Draxler will start tomorrow.

    I hope that means Reus starts in the middle, otherwise I don't know on what basis Ozil or Draxler deserve to start in front of him.