Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Brophs, Feb 18, 2018.
Turkey is becoming a quasi-fascist state, run on increasingly Islamist lines.
The media is pretty much now state-controlled, democracy is gone and likely won't return for decades if ever.
Erdogan and Trump are best pals probably
The crackdown since the coup is absolute bullshit, but he was part of the Gülen movement that helped Turkey to become what it is today. Absolutely no sympathy for him.
Turkey is also playing with fire in Syria.
Doubt it considering Trump's stance on Israel.
And Putin, dont forget Putin.
No, they get along pretty well.
Trumps stance on Israel is every American presidents stance on Israel for some fecking reason.
Trump is a believer, on the right-side type who dares to speak something different from the utterly generic phrases. He must be evil! You haven't grasped this logical equation yet, Jim?
that does not seem to be true currently
And Erdogan has called US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital a "red line".
In general yes, however supporting Jerusalem as Israel's capital is a new one.
Suppose I'd forgotten about the whole Jerusalem thing tbf.
I knew they were on good terms at one point but that may purely because of Trump Towers in Istanbul
It's not just or even mostly about Jerusalem, the bigger issue for Erdogan is the US relationship with the YPG/SDF in Syria.
Can you imagine buddies Trump, Ergodan, Putin and Ed Glazer going bowling together?
I’m sure the first topic of conversation would be ‘so Ed, what’s the skinny on Pogba’.
Absolutely spot on!
Why would anyone have sympathy for someone who wants the country to be a theocracy?
The people in the Gulen movement are Sufis - as different from Sunni or Shia Islamic extremists as oil is different from water.
Sufi shrines and temples are bombed and attacked in places like Pakistan ... and the reason is that they condemn violence in the name of religion. They represent the mystical strand of Islam.
Wiki: "Movement participants have set up a number of media organisations to promote its core values such as love, tolerance, hope, dialogue, activism, mutual acceptance and respect."
They are almost the polar opposite of Islamic authoritarians.
Top comment Glaston, you seem to know your stuff. Although Erdogan didn't begin his political life in this way, for a long time he has been using religion to the extreme for political power and sway over the majority of citizens.
Even though he was never known as an extremist or conservative believer, Erdogan has obviously identified the easiest way possible to consolidate all power in his own hands by forcing down the Islamic way of life as being the Turkish way of life. However, the hypocrisy literally reeks of him and his family, especially his wife, who is alleged to be spending tens of millions of dollars a month on luxurious lifestyle. It's all hearsay to be honest, but it comes directly from Turkey from some of my business relations and partners.
Yep, and Erdogan blamed the Gulen movement for initiating corruption proceedings against members of his family and others.
The crackdown on Gulen is partly a result of that and partly because they represent a convenient scape-goat re. the 'coup' attempt and a good excuse for Erdogan to have seized control of most the media and purge society of his political opponents.
Turkey is a NATO member only in name these days - if push came to shove Erdogan would side with the Russians and other authoritarian regimes at the drop of a hat.
Erdogan is also associated with a Sufi order. The founder of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Hassan al-Banna, was a Sufi. Being 'Sufi' does not necessarily say anything about one's approach to politics and the role of Islam in broader society - the Gulen movement was in a very close alliance with the AKP for years before things went sour.
Actually not. He is just the first one to go through with actually moving the embassy there. But this was on the agenda of all presidents since 1995 when congress passed a law to move the embassy there. It was just put on the back burner by every president since.
And they went sour because of corruption investigations into Erdogan's family and members of his government that Gulen started.
I agree that being a Sufi doesn't necessarily guarantee anything, but genuine Sufis do not go around saying (as Erdogan has): "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...."
Sufism is about "inner Islam" - mystical union with divinity. It's not about outward power and conquest. And this is why Sunni and Shia extremists hate Sufis.
Not sure about that mate, the Ottomans were Sufis and they expanded their empire quite extensively.
What's a 'genuine Sufi'? The term is so broad and includes so much that it can only be applied in the vaguest sense. It was Sufi orders which led military resistance to the European powers in places like Algeria, the Caucasus, India and the Sudan. Today members of a Sufi-inspired sect in Pakistan have murdered and celebrated the murder of a politician who dared to criticize the country's blasphemy laws, and have led the persecution of Ahmadis. There is this image in the West of the apolitical, cuddly Sufi hippy who spends his days smoking weed, hanging out with the Whirling Dervishes, and listening to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. The reality is much more complicated.
Here's a quote from Gulen by the way:
"The existence of our comrades is the guarantee of the future of Islam. From this aspect, their presence in the law courts, or in the civil service, or in other service sectors, the existence of our comrades cannot be evaluated as being out of individual obligation. Rather, in these units, they are the guarantee for our future (...) without having formed a strong front in the constitutional institutions; any step we take will be too early.
Until you have reached the correct saturation, until you have the strength to carry the world on your back, until you have laid claim to those things that represent power, until you have formed a powerful front in all of the constitutional institutions that are equivalent to the formation of the state in Turkey, every step you take will be a step too early."
Well, Trump claims to be a Christian - doesn't stop him from encouraging white supremacists and generally sowing strife and division.
I'm talking about Sufism generally, not particular individuals who have claimed to be Sufis from time to time, whether for political convenience or for the sake of paying lip service.
Of course, very few things are black and white. But what you've cited is more the exception than the rule.
Generally speaking, several prominent Sufis in Pakistan have issued decrees condemning suicide bombing and other violence. Islamist insurgents have responded with major bombings at Sufi shrines and mosques.
The quote about Gulen shows that they have, amongst other things, political objectives. But I rather see them in power than Erdogan, if that was the choice. Would you rather have Erdogan?
This is true!
Western media seems to love this simplified good vs. evil narrative, even when it's not as clear cut as with former bedfellows like Erdogan and Gülen.
Ticked all the boxes there.
I dunno. I suspect that, in practice, there would be little difference; they're drawn from extremely similar Islamist traditions in Turkey (which is why they were such close allies for a long period), and as the quote above shows, Gulen is every bit as (if not more) shadowy and unaccountable.
I don't think there is a "rule". Pretty much every major Muslim of any historical significance who lived between, say, the tenth and nineteenth centuries was affiliated in some way with a Sufi order (the great exceptions being, of course, the Wahhabis of the eighteenth century onward). That includes even a figure like Ibn Taymiyyah, who was a member of the Qadiri order but is today revered by Salafis, including the al Qaeda and ISIS types, and also includes the founders of the Deoband madrassa in India. For all that time it was Sufism rather than the reading of texts which defined devotional life for most Muslims (who were illiterate). The distinction back then wasn't between Sufis and non-Sufis, but between the range of temperamental tendencies within Sufism, i.e. between the sober, shariah-minded Sufis and the more extravagant, celebratory types which have tended to shape our image of Sufism today (and everything in between). It's impossible to pin down such a broad range of human experience into neat categories, especially when the categories we use originate from modern and generally Western traditions. It's only really with modern-day Salafism that an explicitly "anti-Sufi" trend has emerged, and because of that we have tended to view Sufis as the diametric opposite of those who target them. But this is a distortion.
Having Gülen take control means that America is then subverting Turkey's democracy. Theorize all day about what their religion means - you'd still be missing the fundamental issue of what they really represent.
I know that Hakan Sukur seems innocent here but he is not. He was my childhood hero but I can not hate him more. To see people like him or NBA player Enes Kanter talk so shamelessly makes me incredibly angry and frustrated.
The hatred towards Erdogan clouds everyone's judgement but Gulen and his movement paved the way for Erdogan to turn Turkey what it is today. They gave all the power that Erdogan needed and when their interest were collided, they turned against each other. 10 years ago, Turkey was the same unjust country, thanks to Gulen & AKP alliance. You were not reading about it because Gulenists knew how to mask those unjust practices. Make no mistake, Hakan Sukur or Gulenists are by no means devoters of democracy. The only reason they looks so is they are funding lobbyists in west incredible amounts of money. Gulenists were so powerful that they were able to get the questions of military exams beforehand and they were able to hand them to their followers. That's why most members of our military were Gulenists and that's also why seculars like me had no difficulty believing that the coup was made by Gulenists.
The day before he hang up his boots, Hakan Sukur visited Erdogan. He wanted to become Sports Ministry of the country and he became a member of assembly in 2011. During the Gezi protests, which was a protest crying for democracy, he claimed that protestors like me where vandals. The list can go on but he was never an innocent figure, just like his gulenist buddies.
Hakan Sukur now lives in San Francisco. He has a beautiful house and owns a fancy cafe over there. He might not be coming back to Turkey but he lives a wealthy life. Just like his many Gulenist friends who live in US with the money of many innocent people and I don't believe one second that he feels depressed not being able to go back. But, because of Gulenists like him, many people's lives are destroyed in Turkey. While they live a wealthy life in U.S, so many of their old followers suffer here without knowing what to do with their lives.
There is a victim in this story but that is not Hakan Sukur. The victim is seculars or neutral people like me, who are deeply worried to see where our country is headed to.
I think you have to question the concept of "genuine" anything though, especially with regards to religious movements with multiple interpretations of text and people involved.
For example, you cant point to stalin and mao as genuinly representing marx and his ideas.
I imagine if you want to see the soul and values of any religion in practise, you need to go to a local community level and see how normal people live out their values in the name of [insert faith].
As an exaggerated example, see the positive role of liberation theology in latin communities whilst the catholic heirarchy and christian USA propped up other christian dictators at expense of oppressed.
I have a feeling that faith at an institutional level cant exist because of power dynamics and competing interests. Happy to be pointed in a direction where a government has done something positive in name of religion though.
Nah they are not. It's just a narrative that they chose after they fell out with Erdogan in order to gain the western media's support. Trust me they are some of the most intolerant groups I have ever seen in my life.
This is all that really needs to be said on the matter.
I think the good (Gulen) vs evil (Erdogan) narrative is very seductive but clearly a massive oversimplification.
MOre likely if the Glazers need a Trump Tower next to OT.
It's a horseshit narrative. If anybody is trying to portray Gülen as "good," they either don't know what they're talking about or are incredibly biased.
It's also worth pointing out that disliking Gülen isn't a tacit approval of Erdoğan. Choosing between them is like being asked whether you want to be kicked in the balls or the face. However, Erdoğan was America's original puppet and what the country became under him isn't good. Why any rational person would then want America's next puppet in line to continue dragging it down that path is just bizarre. I'm begrudgingly accepting that, if anything, it's preferable to lean towards Russia.
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