Have all our players performed better individually away from United?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by ZIDANE, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Jul 11, 2018
    #1

    ZIDANE Full Member

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    I never really followed every player through the international qualifiers (who watches them?) but at the World Cup I think most of our players have played as good or better than expected?
    • Paul Pogba - The complete midfielder, every match.
    • Ashley Young - Solid and what a corner kick to slab head. When will he stop.
    • Jesse Lingard - Good season at United but feel he's been more consistent with England (or lack of rotation).
    • Marcos Rojo - Mixed but came back into the team and body swapped into Higuain for a moment, what a goal.
    • Victor Lindelof - Performed well albeit in a really defensive team. No mistakes.
    • Romelu Lukaku - Running the channels and through a whole defence at one point, another one of Rio's nightmare to play against.
    • Marouane Fellaini - The enigma that keeps popping up and gets remembered for 1 headed goal (against Japan) and some solid 'get your elbows out and get stuck in' action in midfield. Most pundits agree he's played well and ended up a first team starter in a very good team.
    • Nemanja Matic - Nemanja Matic.
    • David de Gea - Made one mistake after he fell asleep watching Spain play football. It's okay, I've done it myself.
    • Phil Jones & Marcus Rashford - Haven't played but it's coming home.
    There's plenty of good players that never made it. And it's all relative, I think KDB was good but expected more and Mbappe is nearly Ronaldo.

    Does this mean we are getting there and actually have a good squad of players that can perform well at the highest level we just need one or two more and it will click?

    Or do we need to take note and make some changes? How quickly will this turn into anti-Mourinho who has made a career of getting players to perform really well within a system e.g. Lampard.
  2. Jul 11, 2018
    #2

    SecondFig Full Member

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    Can I be the first to blame Mourinho?
  3. Jul 11, 2018
    #3

    Kostur Full Member

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    Most of those players play pretty much the same for us but we love to bring down our own players and take a shit on our club so there's that. Pogba's the most improved one for sure but he's had games like this for us already. Fellaini, Lindelöf, Young, Rojo, Lingard all played like that for us but they are often slated for pretty much nothing. With them it's pretty much the case of people not giving a shit if they play well, even at the WC, unless they make a mistake and then they can come back with the 'I told you so' talk, vide some people trying to blame yesterday's Umtiti goal on Fellaini.
  4. Jul 11, 2018
    #4

    11101 Full Member

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    Answers above. I don't think any of them have performed massively above or below expectations, except maybe Dave.
  5. Jul 11, 2018
    #5

    TheRedDevil'sAdvocate Full Member

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    Pogba, aka the Ferrari Mourinho wanted to treat like Volkswagen according to many people on the Caf, can do a job in the midfield when he gets his head around it after all, heh? Not that it actually matters now that we signed Fred but in terms of concentration, control and accountability i expect more from him than jogging nonchalantly on the pitch and throwing his toys out of the pram whenever things aren't going his way.

    Young and Lingard haven't done anything more than what they usually do. The former has always been a useful outlet as a wing-back in the build-up phase and it doesn't come as a surprise that he can hit quality crosses in the box. The latter is very pacey and a constant nuisance for defences with his off the ball movement. But when Young trying to play the perfect cross toward a lone man in the box, either that man is Lukaku being heavily marked or Fellaini lunging at the far-post, becomes your best option to create chances and when Lingard is the only one who's offering runs off the ball, while all the others wait for the ball to come to them, that's when the problems arise. And that's also when good utility players start to get all the blame, despite giving their best, simply because they can't do the impossible (=carry United to the title all by themselves).

    Fellaini belongs in the same category as Lingard and Young. I mention him separately because his WC performances have somewhat calmed a bit the backlash his contract renewal created among United fans (which is a good thing because the reaction of many people on this forum and elsewhere was beyond ridiculous). In this WC he showed both what he can offer and what his limitations are, often in the same game. In the QF against Brazil, he helped his team tactically to shut down the spaces Brazil's left side (Marcelo/Neymar/Coutinho) was trying to exploit. Furthermore, Martinez's plan with Lukaku playing the target-man on the right (the space Marcelo left open) and opening up the central channels for KdB/Hazard to run with the ball worked like a charm. Belgium scored early and Fellaini's contribution was more evident than ever. On the other hand, against France, things didn't go as smoothly as planned. The French, without the Latin-American inclination to want the ball, didn't take the bait but remained firmly at the ramparts of their castle wall instead while Martinez's choice to utilize KdB/Hazard in more wide positions (and create 1v1 situations for them vs the French FBs) and allow the midfield battle to be decided solely on physicality didn't pay off in the end. In these circumstances, Fellaini's (and the others') inability to create from the midfield or pose any kind of threat on the ball in order to draw players and relieve some of the traffic from the wide areas was more than evident. Fellaini's a very useful player in games when you prioritize not to lose and when you want to protect a lead by being ultra-compact and hit on the counter. And yeah, it's not a crime against the beautiful game to use his height in the box (at least not as a primary tactic). But if your aim is to control the midfield and create through the centre, well...

    Lukaku has had a great tournament. Drawing defenders out of position and using his body to protect the ball and pick a pass is nothing new to him. If his teammates at United start making runs in the spaces he opens up in behind and between the lines, his usefulness will be lauded more and the issues with his first touch will be criticized less by United fans. But in general, the people who say that the likes of Sanchez/Rashford/Martial/Pogba etc. switch on only when the ball arrives at their feet and the people who suggest that a heavyset midfield that consists of Matic/Herrera (Fellaini, McTominay)/Pogba won't ever take advantage of the spaces Lukaku opens up are equally correct.

    Matic is very reliable. Rojo seems to always have a moment of brilliance in him (like the goal he scored) every once in a while but the only times i feel positive about him starting for us is when the alternative is Jones (CB) or Shaw (LB). De Gea's doppelganger at the WC did a great job at reducing Real Madrid's interest in the real one we have in Manchester.
  6. Jul 11, 2018
    #6

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

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    Pogba, Young, Lukaku and Lindelof have definitely looked better in this WC than their league form last season was

    The others in the OP no
  7. Jul 11, 2018
    #7

    Greck Full Member

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    Agreed with Yorke on one thing, the notion that our squad is miles behind our competition has always been a load of rubbish. We have to get these talents playing as a unit because individually we may have the best collection of talent in the PL
  8. Jul 11, 2018
    #8

    SER19 Full Member

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    No i would say I only lukaku and yes hes probably let down a little in our system. Pogba has looked great some games not so much in others, same as for us. Could argue all others mentioned are better for us or at least the same
  9. Jul 11, 2018
    #9

    Marcky411 Full Member

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    Yes you may and I shall second that.
    Jose's tactics/style etc, it doesn't matter who comes in within no time they look like pure mediocrity. Wonder how long it will take before people start getting on Fred's back for being a waste of time and funds.
    Getting back to the point of this thread, personally I think the players have looked better in different systems (except De Gea, what a nightmare WC he had), the one player that really impressed me was Lindelof, was very solid in defence and at Utd Jose plays Smalling and Jones as first choice. You ask yourself why he bothers going out every transfer window to buy CD.
  10. Jul 11, 2018
    #10

    Trizy Full Member

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    Short answer - yes.

    You can also say all City players have looked wank away from their Club.

    Conclusion - Manager is the difference.
  11. Jul 11, 2018
    #11

    abdo99 Full Member City Lover

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    Yes. Mourinho is not getting the best out of these players. We don't have a bad squad. But every player who joins United slowly becomes a shadow of their usual self. None of City's players have pulled up any trees which also tells me that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts and Pep deserves a lot of credit for getting to 100 points and breaking all kind of records. Just look at how poor Otamendi has been. Fernandinho, Sterling, B Silva, KDB etc. None of them have replicated the same form for their countries.
  12. Jul 11, 2018
    #12

    Judas Open to offers

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    Apart from De Gea and maybe Lingard, I'd say basically yeah. Bit frustrating. But it's nothing we didn't all already know, our players are underperforming, have been for awhile. We'll see if that's still the case this season.
  13. Jul 11, 2018
    #13

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva

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    I never thought our team was as good as City's. However I' have never accepted that that gap in quality is reflected by that ridiculous 19 point margin. We don't have as much quality as we should but Mourinho still hasn't got the best out of the quality he has. Hope that changes this year.
  14. Jul 11, 2018
    #14

    iKeano Full Member

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    José that
  15. Jul 11, 2018
    #15

    Schneckerl Full Member

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    De Gea obviously not.
  16. Jul 11, 2018
    #16

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    I would say they’re generally playing pretty similar to how they play for us. Pogba maybe a slight exception but a small sample of games. We’ve always known he can step up when it suits him. The issue has been keeping him at that level.

    For me, the biggest difference has been the way people are far less hysterical about mixed/poor performances from United players in this tournament and far more willing to praise the good ones. Even Fellaini has been getting plaudits and he’s done nothing he hasn’t done at United and been absolutely slaughtered for in the process. Similarly, almost everyone is raving about Lukaku but if he was playing for United the “flat track bully” critics would be out in force.

    De Gea the only really obvious exception. He’s been miles better in a United shirt than he has bern at the WC.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  17. Jul 11, 2018
    #17

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    No you can’t.
  18. Jul 11, 2018
    #18

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    This is a very good post. Pretty much spot on.
  19. Jul 11, 2018
    #19

    Trizy Full Member

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    Yes you can.
  20. Jul 11, 2018
    #20

    Revaulx Full Member

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    Agreed.

    Going into next season, such a lot seems to be riding on Fred fixing the midfield issues. It’s a hell of a responsibility for someone new to a “top” league.
  21. Jul 11, 2018
    #21

    R77 Full Member

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    It's been a good WC for United players, certainly. Three of the four teams that made the semi finals have at least one of our players as an integral part of the first 11 and gameplan. There's a reasonable chance that one or more of them will win it. I think if we compare similar players from rival teams, it shows us that at the least, some players appear to thrive more in some systems or roles than others. Which is something we already knew.

    Until we get a glimpse of how backroom/staff changes and any player recruitment influence the coming season, if at all, I'm going to cling to it as a positive. All these players coming back having had a relatively successful tournament is bound to have a positive effect on the squad psychology, no? Unless you mean they're clinically depressed and anxious at the thought of coming back to play for miserable ol' Manchester United?

    Also, in some respects we've not really learned anything new on the whole IMO. Pogba can put in worldie performances in a midfield two. Lingard can indeed play really well and make the difference, yet is inconsistant (in front of goal and in general). Lukaku can be very good indeed, and far more than just 'big guy up front', in fact if you play him in that role he can dissapear, etc...

    At this point, it's all good.
  22. Jul 11, 2018
    #22

    BluesJr Full Member

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    This is correct but people are blind to it unfortunately. Our squad is much better than many believe but Mourinho hasn’t got the best out of them yet. That’s on him.
  23. Jul 11, 2018
    #23

    Glideman New Member

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    I think they've played the same level, except Pogba who weirdly playing in a 2 and doing the defensive work was what so many people on this forum don't want him to do haha

    De Gea has made mistakes which isn't great

    Beyond that I struggle to see what everyone else has done which isn't what they do at united? Only difference is people are hypercritical
  24. Jul 11, 2018
    #24

    yo@Kirk Full Member

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    I wonder if Jose has learned anything from watching his talented squad play for their national team coaches. Pogba looks good in a 2 man midfield with Kante. I wonder what Pogba and Fred could do in a similar setup. Lukaku would add to the attack if given more freedom like he has with Belgium. Lindelof was bringing the ball forward and making key passes from advanced positions, something that would be useful for United's attack.

    Jose isn't doing a very good job incorporating the talented United players into a functional team, imo. Hopefully, new assistant first team manager Kieren McKenna can rescue the situation.
  25. Jul 11, 2018
    #25

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    I mean, you can, you did. You're wrong, though. Obviously.
  26. Jul 11, 2018
    #26

    fellaini's barber Full Member

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    I think most of the City players have looked bang average unlike their EPL selves this tournament. KDB yesterday, Otamendi, Sterling, Jesus..
  27. Jul 11, 2018
    #27

    Jojo <3 Mou New Member

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    I don't think there has been any huge difference in the performances for United vs at the WC....apart from De Gea.

    I think that the fact that it's a relatively short course will skew perceptions. We have good players, consistency has been the major issue for us. They are fine in periods but can they do it for 10 months vs 1?

    Sadly also there are 3/4 national teams that are better teams/squads that our team so our players were interacting with better players.

    I think it helped that most of us are not as invested in them for the national teams as when the play for United. So we judge less harshly...different expectations.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  28. Jul 11, 2018
    #28

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    I thought KDB was very good yesterday. Sterling's been as good as any other England player (albeit without any end product) and Jesus has been good too. Silva (both of them) has played well. Walker's looked good. Stone's been good. Aguero's been sharp and should probably have played more (ditto when he was at City) Ottamendi is the one City player who's been outright poor but he finished the season in woeful form too.

    Lumping them all in together as "wank" is absolute nonsense anyway.
  29. Jul 11, 2018
    #29

    LeftyBlaster Full Member

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    Thirded. Agree with every single bit here.
  30. Jul 11, 2018
    #30

    fellaini's barber Full Member

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    None of them have looked remotely as good they did this season for City this season I thought that was the point of the thread.
  31. Jul 11, 2018
    #31

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    The point of the thread seems to be that all of Manchester United’s players have been much better in the WC than they have in the PL. I disagree with that point too.
  32. Jul 11, 2018
    #32

    Kapardin Full Member

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    Matic, Lukaku, Fellaini, Rojo, Lingard, Young and Rashford have more or less been the same. Pogba has been better, but it could be due to the fact that he's surrounded by better players in defense, midfield and offense (bar ST).

    Lindelof has been good but it could be due to Sweden's ultra defensive set-up that gives him composure and time to think and act. Unlike top clubs which need their midfield and forwards to be on the front foot all the time. As an example, Darmian was adequate at Torino too.

    De Gea obviously hasn't settled in that Spanish set up at all.
  33. Jul 11, 2018
    #33

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Basically, the players who've been playing for teams that did well in the WC have played well (no matter which Manchester club they play for) while those that played for countries that did badly, have not had a great tournament. Who'd have thunk it?
  34. Jul 11, 2018
    #34

    El Jefe Full Member

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    Wank is an exaggeration but only Stones and Bernardo were anywhere close to their city form. The non-English city players were either underwhelming or poor.

    Let's also not forget Low opted not to take Sane. As brainless as his decision might have been Sane's NT performances gave room for that decision.
  35. Jul 11, 2018
    #35

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Cool. So we can blame Martial’s non-selection on his NT performances too?
  36. Jul 11, 2018
    #36

    el3mel Full Member

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    Pogba played more defensively with this France side than any other time with United or Juve, something people here didn't favor and wanted to "release" him, but he's starting to get at what he should do as a DMF. Also he wasn't terrible last season, it was those 2 shocking months that hurt him badly, but he started and ended the season well. What he seems to get for France is as I said, how to be simple, play the ball fast and do a defensive job in midfield.

    Young was like this most of the season with all his pros and cons. He had amazing games and underwhelming ones at the same time he's that kind of player.

    Lingard played great for us and you can't talk about consistency with England in 7 matches compared to a season of 50 matches.

    Rojo was pretty shite away from the goal.

    Lindelof yeah he does better for Sweden than with us. Hopefully he captures this for us next season.

    Lukaku played like this most of the season apart from the disastrous October/November. He was great otherwise even when he doesn't score he helps those around him to do just like what he did for Belgium, even though he only scored in 2 games, he still had a big role in them passing Japan and Brazil. However I think we're not getting the best out of his potential till we get a proper fullbacks and wingers. He's also better in running with the ball in a straight line or running the channels than being used for long balls. Belgium tried playing direct against France and didn't succeed.

    Fellaini played great against Japan and Brazil and was below average imo against France. Nothing we haven't seen here. Capable of having brilliant moments in some games but underwhelms in some others.

    So overall I think it's Pogba and Lindelof the ones who played better with their teams than United and in Pogba's case it's not that he was released or freed from defensive duties to work offensively only like the people here keep asking. It's that he started doing a proper CM job and focus on playing simple, doing the defensive work and making the counters or long passes when he gets a chance than trying to be the absolute showman.
  37. Jul 11, 2018
    #37

    El Jefe Full Member

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    I'm not sure I follow your point. Sane was in the provisional WC squad for Germany while Martial wasn't.

    The thread is about United players being better away on international duty and the idea from some that city players are worse off. Sane was merely used as a further example of not being as good away from city.
  38. Jul 11, 2018
    #38

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    And I was using Martial as a counter-example to this idea that all the United players excel as soon as they get away from Mourinho. He was dropped from the French team for a reason.
  39. Jul 11, 2018
    #39

    El Jefe Full Member

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    I actually don't agree that all our players perform better away from Jose. Only Lindelof and arguably Pogba have been better.

    I do agree that City players have been considerably worse without Pep so I do believe there's merit in saying Pep gets far more out of his players than Jose does. Maybe that's for another thread.
  40. Jul 11, 2018
    #40

    Bastian Full Member

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