Have continental Europe's elite teams declined?

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by horsechoker, May 9, 2019.

  1. May 9, 2019
    #81

    Inter Yer Nan Full Member

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    The PSG away game came with more than half the team missing and look at the group game performances. An obvious fluke result. The problem is that the players who care don't have the quality yet or at all and the players capable of making a difference don't give a shite.
  2. May 9, 2019
    #82

    Cantonaaa! Full Member

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    Pep, Klopp and Poch doing wonders, and a fortunate result for United. Guess teams like Juve, Real and Bayern are in transition or something, perhaps not at their best. Ajax have had a brilliant season as well.

    Next year I think it will be more like normal. Ajax side broken up, Madrid, Juve, PSG and Barca stronger, perhaps Bayern too.
  3. May 9, 2019
    #83

    padr81 Mr. MoneyBags

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    I think Barca are a club are overly relient on Messi. Everything has to go through him. Everything. Yes he's absolutely the goat and you get him the ball as much as you can. It's like everyone is on the pitch to get the ball to Messi. They are not an amazing side without him, but I'm not having that the team they had out on Tuesday is completely incapable of making 1 chance or shot without him being involved.

    47 of their 86 goals have been scored by or assisted by Messi this season. Over 50% and of those that weren't he probably had a hand or pre-assist of whatever in loads more. This team need to be able to play football without him. It's like Messi is bigger than Barcelona at the minute. I also think for him going somewhere where he won't have to carry the team single handed would make him play even better instead of going into games thinking "If I don't get a goal and two assists we're dropping points" which seems to be the case both for Barca and Argentina the last couple of years. Barca's only plan of attack vs Liverpool was "get the ball to Leo and hope for the best."

    He was involved alot obviously in all teams but under both Pep and up to the end of Enrqiue, they often scored a goal where he didn't touch the ball. You can't be that relient on one man, even if he's one of the best ever. I've seen some one man teams in my time but this Barca takes the piss every time I've watched them. Stop Messi, stop Barca. Should never be that way.
  4. May 9, 2019
    #84

    padr81 Mr. MoneyBags

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    Well he'd be a more useful sub than Mahrez. We wouldn't have a hope, if Ronaldo wasn't already there I'd have said Juve would be a good place for him. If he went there with Ronnie we might as well cancel football and give Juve all the trophies.
  5. May 9, 2019
    #85

    Casanova85 Full Member

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    Wow, man, City fans.
  6. May 9, 2019
    #86

    giorno Full Member

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    Intersting thing about barcelona: when messi was injured, they actually turned into a really good team. With Messi, they've been almost entirely dependant on him
  7. May 10, 2019
    #87

    Leroy The Red Full Member

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    Well didn't Everton sell Lukaku and Barkley for about 90 million? Didn't Watford sell Richarlison for 50 million? Leicester sold Mahrez, Kante and Drinkwater for about 120 million. Also I dunno, I wouldn't consider the likes of Lazio, Roma, Napoli, Sevilla, Lyon etc as elite clubs, putting Portuguese and Dutch teams in there is also a bit silly, those leagues are incomparable to the big 5.
    Atletico have spent a lot recently too. Anyway, here's a list of top 20 spending clubs https://talksport.com/football/418688/europe-top-20-biggest-spending-clubs-transfer-fees/.
    Dortmund, Napoli, Milan, Inter, Roma, Atletico all in that list. The only mid table English club in there is Everton. I think the issue is that the German, Spanish and Italian league are just totally dominated by one club (two in Spain) and so the chasing pack essentially always feel behind, they've clearly spent lots of money, more so than a lot of Premier League clubs, maybe that's why they're pushing for a super league?. I think the envy of the Premier League comes from the popularity and how competitive it is. That last line of yours is bullshit really to be honest, plenty of top players still want and prefer playing in La Liga.
  8. May 10, 2019
    #88

    tentan Full Member

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    It goes in cycles, the declines of these so called big clubs was going to happen sooner or later.
  9. May 11, 2019
    #89

    POF Full Member

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    Your list is since 2010. Figures since the last EPL TV deal would tell a different story and the gap is going to continue to grow.

    From a quick google, 13 of the 20 EPL clubs have signed players for more than £25m. Most of those in the last couple of years. 8 EPL clubs have signed players for over £35m which equates to Bayern Munich's record signing.
  10. May 11, 2019
    #90

    FootyCrew New Member

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    Spain?

    Sorry, but i hardly can consider Spain as a big one NT historically, they just got back to their typical performance pre-2008 when they were never favorites to win a single tournament.

    France won Euro 2000, Confederations Cup 2001-2003, and reached World Cup Final in 2006.I can't see how they got better just because they won 2018 World Cup.They are just getting good result as they were getting since the 80s.
  11. May 11, 2019
    #91

    SambaBoy Full Member

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    Hopefully we see a return of the Milan clubs in the CL competing at the top end. Juventus need proper competition in that league to make them more competitive in the CL too. They are not accustomed to playing against elite team as they have no competition in their domestic league. It's probably going to take a number of years and AC tried to throw money at it last summer (or two summers ago) and messed up most of the transfers.
  12. May 11, 2019
    #92

    RochaRoja Full Member

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    Maybe something to do with England having a monopoly of elite coaches at the moment compared to some of the other top clubs who have been making do with lesser managerial talent.

    The failures of Barça, PSG and Madrid in the CL this season have all been down to incredibly poor game management. If Barça went to Anfield or PSG took on United at home with any kind of tactical plan they kill the tie.
  13. May 11, 2019
    #93

    RochaRoja Full Member

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    Poorest performance but only the worst German team if you’ve only been watching football since 2010. The 1998-2008 sides were significantly poorer.
  14. May 11, 2019
    #94

    Halds Full Member

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    I keep reading that both Barca and Bayern are in decline. How so? Barca has won La Liga comfortably and are in the final of Copa del Rey. The also won a difficult cl group in great manner and got to the semi's.

    Bayern has a comfortable lead in bundesliga and are in the final of DFB Cup. They won their CL group as well in front of the much hailed Ajax.

    Some of the well known players from Barca and Bayern are ageing and needs to be replaced sooner or later, but to me it doesn't really look like the clubs are in decline.
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  15. May 11, 2019
    #95

    RochaRoja Full Member

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    Because the success of the elite teams will always be determined by their success in the Champions League, especially when they play in domestic competitions where their domination is the status quo.

    Regardless of their domestic performance, a season without a CL final has become a failure for Bayern, Barça, Juventus and PSG.
  16. May 11, 2019
    #96

    Treble Full Member

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    They are not as good as they used to be despite winning domestic trophies. And it is reflected not only in their CL performances but also in the points total in the domestic league. Both teams are aging. Barca fielded six 30+ y.o. players against Liverpool.
    4 years ago when Neymar was still at Barca and they won the treble, Barca scored 180 goals in all compets. They are quite far from that level now.
  17. May 11, 2019
    #97

    FootyCrew New Member

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    Yeah, i feel like people is overrating the Champions League too much. Sure is the best trophy you can get as a club, but sometimes i think it is too much praising.

    I don't remember Champions League being extremely important back in the 90s, not as much as today at least. Maybe is because some domestic leagues lost shine as Serie A, Bundesliga and La Liga were way more competitive back then, and the economic difference wasn't as big as now.
  18. May 11, 2019
    #98

    Niall All Powerful Super Being Staff

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    It was still the biggest trophy a club could win back in the 90s. But as a competition it didn’t have as many teams (only champions back then :smirk:) or TV coverage. It was sharing the limelight with the UEFA Cup (2nd - 4th place teams) and Cup Winners Cup which were much more competitive back then and prestigious trophies to win (unlike the Europa).

    Now, like football in general, the CL has hit saturation point with so many more televised games and coverage. It’s basically an amalgamation of the old CL, UEFA and Cup Winners Cup. Europa League is the wooden spoon competition.
  19. May 11, 2019
    #99

    HisDudeness New Member

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    it's all to do with management. if pep were manager of barcelona again we would suddenly be calling them the best again.

    Valverde... he just looks clueless

    pep would bring in some Barca youth. he would bring in some youngsters from the academy, etc. after 2 years we would be calling them the best again.

    not to mention they will start playing that pep style again.





    Passing, movement, running, fitness... high standard. they would crush Wenger's unbeatables. Dominate the game. Teams can barely get out of their own half.
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  20. May 11, 2019

    GhastlyHun Full Member

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    The PL has the most money and for the past few years has worked towards the best football by bringing in the best managers and some of the best players (in parts by buying the best, and also by buying and developing promising talent). Regardless of decline of the continental clubs the english clubs are now much stronger than they were just a few years ago.
  21. May 11, 2019

    Welby5 New Member

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    Been watching since the 70's and for me last years team the poorest i've seen. Shockingly poor in every department and even lacking the basic, traditional qualities of German teams, like being well organised and hard to beat. But then again, we had a very average Spain, Brazil, Argentina and Italy and Holland not even there, so the decline in quality is pretty wide spread at the moment, though the Dutch appear to be on the rise again, which is good to ssee.
  22. May 11, 2019

    RochaRoja Full Member

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    I’m honestly surprised that there’s not even been speculation about him going back to Barça.

    It’s a long shot but I’d love to see what he’d do if he went back.
  23. May 11, 2019

    JMack1234 Full Member

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    The big English teams (with some obvious exceptions) have seriously improved over the last few years.

    Obviously because of finances but also because the Prem currently has the best managers in the world working in the league. Which will make more of a difference that a few star players.
  24. May 13, 2019

    mdvmia New Member

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    Not sure if it's been mentioned before, but I think PSG is really hurting the top Spanish clubs in particular. Without the Qatari ownership...

    Mbappe would be at Real Madrid
    Neymar would be at Barcelona
    Verratti would be at Barcelona
    Thiago Silva would have joined Barca in 2012 or 2013

    Players like Marquinhos and Cavani would also have been at a top club outside of England as well.
  25. May 13, 2019

    Tostao_80 New Member

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    You mention Napoli and Dortmund and leave out Atletico?
    To answer the question, lets look one by one:
    Real - yes declined
    Bayern - yes declined
    Barca - yes declined (I know they keep winning la ligas, but they're far from Peps and Luchos versions)
    Atletico - declined
    Juventus - declined
  26. May 13, 2019

    giorno Full Member

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    Juventus haven't declined at all. This season's was their best team post-calciopoli. They failed in CL, not because they declined. They just failed
  27. May 13, 2019

    Tostao_80 New Member

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    Not sure if you're serious, but 14/15 Juve is clearly better:

    Buffon, Lichtsteiner, Bonucci, Barzagli, Evra, Marchisio, Pirlo, Pogba, Vidal, Tevez, Morata

    vs

    Szczesny, De Sciglio, Rugani, Bonucci, Alex Sandro, Emre Can, Pjanic, Matuidi, Bernardeschi, Dybala, Ronaldo

    Juve 14/15 were one game away from completing the treble. In 18/19, they lost out in the quarters of both the CL and Italian Cup. So achievement wise, not even close. Performance wise, they were more turgid and uninspired this last season without doubt. They played better football in 14/15 plus had much better players closer to their peak.
  28. May 13, 2019

    VeevaVee despite the protests, wears Ugg boots Scout

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    This reminds me of the time I went for a quick sandwich in Ibiza. They make em up for you. Probably 3 or 4 people in front of me. Should've taken about 5-10 mins max. I was there for 40 minutes as they idly waddle to get one ingredient at a time and chat away. 20 minutes deep you've been there too long and are committed to the cause. Being fecking slow is engrained in the culture. Good sandwiches though.
  29. May 13, 2019

    horsechoker Sailor vee, this is a right off.

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    Was Wayne Linekar there too?
  30. May 13, 2019

    VeevaVee despite the protests, wears Ugg boots Scout

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    :lol: was actually about 5 mins walk from Ocean Beach
  31. May 14, 2019 at 09:29

    giorno Full Member

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    Yes i'm very serious. No they did not play better football in 14/15. All year long in Italy there has been talk about this juventus side being their best ever. That has been met mostly with a "no, seriously? No". But it is the best they've been in the post-calciopoli era. This was the same side that went one half away from the treble 2 years ago, only with Cancelo instead of Dani Alves, Scesny instead of Buffon and Cristiano Ronaldo instead of Higuain. Plus a much better and deeper bench
  32. May 14, 2019 at 09:50

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    Being myself in the south, I will take offense. Where are you running about, enjoy the people and the place, around here and in pretty much every parts of southern Europe, every opportunity to socialize are important particularly around food, I always smile when I hear someone complain about the time that we spend at the table discussing, laughing or arguing.
  33. May 14, 2019 at 10:02

    André Dominguez Full Member

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    EPL has managed to sell a good product, and marketing made the rest. Money itself does not guarantee a good league, otherwise J-League, MLS, Arab Leagues or Chinese Superleague would be the best leagues in the world for a few years by now.

    Credit to where it's due
  34. May 14, 2019 at 10:10

    King7Eric Full Member

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    It's only around the table though is it? It's in the supermarket, in the pharmacy, pretty much everywhere. Doesn't make for a very efficient lifestyle.
  35. May 14, 2019 at 10:14

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    No, it's everywhere. And to be honest the last sentence is simply shocking, efficient lifestyle, your life isn't a manufacturing plant.:lol:
    Last edited: May 14, 2019 at 10:26
  36. May 14, 2019 at 10:24

    King7Eric Full Member

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    It ain't a gossip drama either. Some people might actually want to do stuff other than just gabbing.
  37. May 14, 2019 at 10:32

    Blackwidow Full Member

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    I think that the big teams in England have understood that to be successful in Europe you have to have not only an assortment of footballing talent but you need to have a team with players that supplement each other in their strengths and weaknesses and a matching system. In the years before it was enough to compete in the EPL without this as all big teams did the same - but it was not enough to really compete in Europe.

    And the other big clubs in Europe used to have that but are out of different reasons right now in transitions.
  38. May 14, 2019 at 10:32

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    But you can do something else, unless your born and breed in Barcelona, you chose to live in a certain culture. It's a little bit like complaining about speaking english in England.

    And by the way, I get the fact that it's sometimes tedious, I'm not really one to chat at the supermarket or pharmacy but it's part of life, when you go to places, you take into account the time that you will most likely spend there, you don't expect it to be at your own rhythm.
  39. May 14, 2019 at 10:41

    King7Eric Full Member

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    Yes I know I have the choice to leave and I'm leaving from here in a few months. I had just been pointing that for non locals this trait is tedious. Of course there are plenty of good things here as well so just like any other place it has both the good and the bad. In my case, I find the bad overwhelming the good and so I'll be leaving soon. Someone else might find this trait endearing and choose to settle here. Depends from person to person.
  40. May 14, 2019 at 11:37

    VeevaVee despite the protests, wears Ugg boots Scout

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    Naw it can be nice and it certainly seems a more healthy lifestyle. Just not when it takes the piss. It wasn't enjoyable being stood up waiting that long. Sometimes it just errs into bad service. Overall though I much prefer Spanish culture.