How and why did it go so wrong for Ole?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by IRELANDUNITED, May 10, 2019.

  1. May 10, 2019
    #1

    IRELANDUNITED Full Member

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    I'm sure this has been discussed but I didn't see a thread for it, so forgive me if one already exists.

    Before I start I just want to say I am not bashing Ole, I adore the man, I just cannot wrap my head around how things could go from so good to so bad in the blink of an eye. Up until after the PSG game we were absolutely flying, we were playing attacking football, scoring goals and our top players were on song. However ever since that famous night in Paris we have fallen back into a state of misery that has followed us since Sir Alex retired, the football is rubbish, the results are bad and the future that looked so bright only a few months ago now looks as bleak as ever. How is this possible? I didn't expect us to be brilliant all season under Ole, but I certainly didn't expect this collapse either. Have the players stopped playing for Ole? Why play for him in the first place then. Have teams quickly started to figure out how to play against us? Has everyone just stopped caring? My mind is going crazy trying to figure out a reason for this madness.
  2. May 10, 2019
    #2

    RedNed77 Full Member

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    It’s been covered in other threads, but the general consensus seems to be a blend of the players stopped playing as soon as he got his contract, and we had to stop our new found pressing game because the players weren’t conditioned for it due to Jose’s different ideas about fitness and training.
  3. May 10, 2019
    #3

    crossy1686 Full Member

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    When he got the job he told them how wonderful they were and how they all deserved to be at United, which they needed to hear post Jose. Then they started getting complacent and certain players were phoning it in so he gave the team a bollocking and singled out individuals who hadn't been performing well enough, then they just reverted back to the shithouses they are.
  4. May 10, 2019
    #4

    GDaly95 Sexist Pig

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    It hasn't gone wrong. It just went weirdly right for a while, then back to the expected level given the attitude and quality of the players. They just phoned it in more than ever this time round.
  5. May 10, 2019
    #5

    LeftyBlaster Full Member

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    This. Absolutely this. Feck em. Ole needs to clear out the shitheads.
  6. May 10, 2019
    #6

    Minimalist New Member

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    One thing is confidence (which I certainly think effects attitude and work ethic). Pretty much since the Arsenal defeat, coming after the PSG tie win, we looked different. A match that we actually played pretty well in despite the result ironically enough.

    It’s like after that Arsenal defeat they just gave up or something.
  7. May 10, 2019
    #7

    Sir Scott McToMinay Full Member

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    Because it is impossible to achieve anything substantial with this group of players.
    Some of them are decent enough players but as a group it simply doesn’t work.
    Too many players who care more about their brand, their appearance than working hard and giving it all in each and every game.
    Look at Liverpool, they don’t have “names” they have actual football players.
  8. May 10, 2019
    #8

    youmeletsfly Full Member

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    This, 100% this.
  9. May 10, 2019
    #9

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

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    I think we can look at the PSG home game as a turning point

    PSG (h) - Both Martial and Lingard injured in the first half, suddenly our attack which had looked so good up till then broken up. First loss under Ole as well
    Chelsea (a) - Great performance and result albeit against a side who were 'downing tools'
    Liverpool (h) - More injuries, Matic the day before the game, Herrera and Rashford during the game, suddenly our midfield which had looked so good up till then broken up. OT atmosphere basically got us through the game
    Palace (a) - Good result albeit against a team awful at home
    Southampton (h) - Late winner, gave away 2 goals the start of our defence starting to creek again?
    PSG (a) - Magical night made more so by the team we had to field (Matic, Herrera, Martial and Lingard all still injured. Pogba suspended)
    Arsenal (a) and beyond - well we know what happens from here on out

    There could be a valid argument that the reasons things started going to shit when the UCL started up again is (apart from the disruption to the starting XI) due to the extra midweek game. Less work on the training ground to focus on fitness, team shape and style of play and more of a focus on recovery and the opposition and I believe there's studies that prove players will naturally revert to type in these scenarios and that's why the high pressing has gone, the counter attacking has gone, the team shape has gone etc etc

    Or of course it was all just a new manager bounce and the players aren't actually that good
  10. May 10, 2019
    #10

    12OunceEpilogue Full Member Scout

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    It hasn't yet. It went from bad under Jose to very good to bad again. I want to give him a chance next season with a clean slate, so this season for me has been a wasted non-event, but not one that reflects badly on Ole.
  11. May 10, 2019
    #11

    royboy16 Full Member

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    Couldnt be many of these reasons.
    As some have mentioned key players stopped performing and as a result impacted the team.
    Players not fit and able to mange Ole's type of football.
    Injuries.
    Once players got their contracts got complacent and reverted back to half arsed attempts.Players are on holiday mode or are leaving end of the season.
    Some players couldnt handle the pressure of the top 4 chase and choked.
  12. May 10, 2019
    #12

    red woppit Full Member

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    Confidence is an incredible asset, just look what happened at Anfield on Tuesday. We had our chances against Arsenal, and I feel we should have beaten them, but for a strange goal, and a soft penalty. We played ok against PSG, but didn't create a tremendous amount of chances, but the difference was we took those chances. I believe that losing so many players in the Liverpool game to injury caused us more issues than we realised at the time (we should have won that game as well), this disrupted the flow the team had at the time, and once one or two little cracks appeared, and players were probably told the truth, they stopped performing.
  13. May 10, 2019
    #13

    Regulus Arcturus Black New Member

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    This, added to the fact that we had an extremely tough run of fixtures which knocked the confidence of this extremely sensitive bunch of players we have. OGS seemed to have a favored starting 11 up until the results started going bad and then he went all Mourinho on us and started trying everything with his team selections to get us going.

    Bottom line is, this group isn’t good enough and no matter who the manager, nothing would change that for more than a temporary spell.

    This Summer will make or break the manager.
  14. May 10, 2019
    #14

    gerdm07 Full Member

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    I would add that the injuries in the Liverpool and first PSG matches played a part. Just like that our depth was gone at key positions. I think Ole, at that point, decided he had to play more defensive and not press as much because of the loaded schedule and lack of depth.
  15. May 10, 2019
    #15

    King7Eric Full Member

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    Good post. As the injuries piled up and there was less time on the training ground, players reverted to what their "natural game" is. Sadly, their collective natural game is not one which gels with one another. Plus the loss away to Barca seemed to knock whatever confidence they had left. DDG making mistakes didn't help and it was most evident in the game against Chelsea. After playing so well till DDG's mistake, the team seemed to completely lose any confidence they had and went into their shell.

    Bottomline is this team isn't mentally strong enough when things start going awry on the pitch to be able to wrestle back control. For all of Jose's fault he did seemed to be instilling some fight in them in the face of adversity, the come back ones away to City and Palace last season and Newcastle,Juve, Bournemouth and the draw against Chelsea away this season come to mind, where they were able to wrestle back control of the match. But now they seem to have lost that as well.
  16. May 10, 2019
    #16

    Vault Dweller Full Member

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    Absolutely this imo.
  17. May 10, 2019
    #17

    Suedesi Full Member

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    That Arsenal defeat was the turning point. Heads dropped after that match
  18. May 10, 2019
    #18

    IrishRedDevil Full Member

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    We don’t have any plan or style of play. Still a bunch of individuals on the pitch. Training should be helping this but as soon as the fitness diminished, the lack of plan is now very evident.
  19. May 10, 2019
    #19

    Skills Snitch

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    He enjoyed the rebound after Mourinho, which snow balled into a squad brimming full of confidence and winning games on autopilot.

    Then we suffered a few set backs, the squad lost a little bit of confidence and that has snowballed into a team lacking of confidence and conviction. Add in a few injuries here and there
  20. May 10, 2019
    #20

    RedDevilUnited369 New Member

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    I think the focus changed once it became clear we could get top 4. Went from going out and enjoying yourselves to we must now get top 4.
  21. May 10, 2019
    #21

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    He hasn't implemented a system which worked well at first, only to go to shite after a while. That isn't what's happened, clearly not. And yet it seems to be the basis for at least some of the panic laden reactions on here.

    He's judged on the shite run as if it represents what he's all about as a manager.
  22. May 10, 2019
    #22

    EwanI Ted Full Member

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    Ole had them overperforming for a short period while they were high on getting rid of Jose and prepared to run far longer and harder than they had done previously. That raised people's expectations too far. We were out performing Liverpool and City for a while, that was never a true reflection of this team.

    But the fitness wasnt there so they got tired and got a bunch of injuries at the same time. Those combined with the sugar rush of a new manager wearing off at the exact same time we ran into the hardest run of fixtures of the season, and form and confidence inevitably nose dived. Once that started it was one demoralising result after another, until the morale and fitness were back where they were in the first place.

    I still think that with a pre-season to get the team to the required fitness level we'll see a consistently higher tempo from Ole's team. My worry is about whether the club has the nous to actually buy decent players.
  23. May 10, 2019
    #23

    RedRonaldo Full Member

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    The players are trying to prove a point with the new manager in charge with new idea and positive style of play, but got exhausted in the end and back to their true mediocrity level.
  24. May 10, 2019
    #24

    AshRK Full Member

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    People think Ole is some kind of a dumb manager who doesn't have any philosophy and is just a glorified cheerleader. If you notice his press conference he has on many occasion emphasized on hard work and outrunning the opponents. I also read somewhere how Ole was hugely impressed by Klopp's work at Dortmund and tried to implement that style of play at Molde. It's no surprise as a manager Ole likes pressing football which our team did for the first month or so but then they couldn't sustain as they were never trained to play that brand of football. This is why he has been looking forward for the pre season as that would give him good time to prepare these lads. The good part is he also knows this is a long process which cannot be completed overnight and hence he has downplayed winning the title next season itself.

    The players might be properly trained for the first time since sir alex retired. Work hard and press the opponents.
  25. May 10, 2019
    #25

    DatIrishFella Band of Brothers, Thief

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    Because the squad is full spoofers and cowards.
  26. May 10, 2019
    #26

    Rozay Master of Hindsight

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    Our fixture list got absolutely brutal for a start.
  27. May 10, 2019
    #27

    Regalia Full Member

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    New manager bounce and shot of confidence from Mourinho leaving eventually disappeared. Do not underestimate what a boost of adrenaline/confidence can do to people, even our pretentious bunch of overhyped players.

    Don't think Ole has changed anything between now and then. Tactics never looked good to begin with, trouncing teams from the bottom of the table didn't mean much. You could see we only had one strategy which was sit back and counter. It just had a lot more 'new manager' verve to it at the beginning.
  28. May 10, 2019
    #28

    Sterling Archer Full Member

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    1) the players
    They're a bunch of tools. The biggest of which is Pogba. Love him as a personality, honestly. I'm talking his out there style, playfulness, etc. But my god the ups and down in professionalism are intolerable. A picture says a thousand words : see the Instagram photo he posted after Jose was sacked. To then go on the poty performance run to screeching halt when Zidane talks up his move is damning.

    As a collective, their performances were a complete 180 from Ole's first match. And not after a settling period with the new coaches... immediately. And it was sustained for several months! That overnight change is not because Ole and the staff are geniuses. It's because the players decide to be professional...and in many ways some of the quickness, focus and transition patterns we saw are the same that Jose was working on over the summer and players didn't employ with any regularity until, oh big surprise, they got their hard nosed manager out and an all smiles, play with freedom manager came in.

    2) the players
    The honeymoon period for Ole was brilliant because the season was already over - 4th place out of sight, PSG battering on the horizon, maybe some fun in the FA Cup ahead. He told the players to play with freedom, attack over defense and enjoy themselves. The winning run, sursprisingly put us back into contention for 4th and with added fortune, past PSG. All of a sudden Ole is also given the permanent job. As a man of ambition and United soul his tone transitions from 'have fun boys' to 'buckle down and focus, hard work, tactical study to best teams like Barca and formidable Wolves, more hard work to grind out against battling mid table teams. Actual responsibility and professionalism was again required.

    It's interesting to note that this coincides with a shift in what Ole tells the press. From "we have amazing players " to "there are those that need to work harder and show they want to play".

    All of a sudden the substitute teacher is assigning homework, asking 'a lot ' more of these players than they probably expected to have to do the rest of the season. And having secured Ole's permanent position during the honeymoon, many obviously did turn off the engines. With more games on the horizon that can't simply be won by enjoying themselves, professionalism is required. Lots of running. Indeed many a player sustains injury but that's what happens when you push your body after going months half arsing it. Is it a bother to return to that level of effort, apparently not for many of these players.

    And as the season nears it's end, loss after loss, being out worked and outplayed by Watford, West Ham, Wolves, Everton, Ole's language is rather explicit. "many of them won't be here much longer"

    That's a huge change from when Ole has come in and it really epitomizes how much this is down to the players.

    3) Woodward
    He is nothing special at business and he is awful as a football executive. The exorbitant salaries are a testament to that. The petty penny pinching with Inter trying to 'outfox' them is a testament to that. Missing the release clause and overpaying for Marouane Fellaini is a testament to that. The sponsorship deals we've made are nothing any run of the mill salesman couldn't do. Chevy sponsors everyone and their mother. Adidas has been pining for us to leave Nike for decades. Kohler is a fecking toilet company. We're Manchester United. World's biggest global football name. Woodward showed no masterminded ability in any of these deals.

    Sooo, getting back to the poor results. We begin to stumble at the end of the winning run and bam, Ole is given the full time role. By this point there were pundits drooling over Ole, the players posting reminiscent photos of their interim manager and a general good feeling from the public. To make this serious appointment after only recently saying there would be a thorough search is astonishing. To be swayed so easily by others opinions, if that was the behind it, is unacceptable for one in his position. To think it was the right decision as a football executive who has just seen multiple experienced managers fail in grand fashion is unacceptable. I would not be surprised if the decision made the players themselves feel powerful.

    In the background of all this we also had several contract renewals ongoing. In the end we saw Jones, Martial and Young renewed. Herrera in talks with PSG. Mata in limbo. Pogba openly courting Zidane. It's a mess of distraction and the outcomes or lack thereof tells of an executive out of his depth.

    4) Ole
    Frankly, he fell victim to making judgement before he arrived. Like many of the fans he seems to have thought that Jose's hardline stance and man management along with negative tactics were solely at fault. Many of the squad were part of Ole's youth setup and he was familiar with their ability and also perhaps that they needed more love than stick to perform. The biggest issue I think was how openly he spoke about this in the early months - how great the squad was. Without getting to truly know the state of affairs he stuck his nose out for the players, openly questioned Alexis and sold Fellaini immediately. Now he looks a bit of a nepotistic knob and the team isn't exactly going to be happy that his tune has changed to 'ill sell you all'
  29. May 10, 2019
    #29

    AJ10 Full Member

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    One thing everyone over looks is consistency. IMO we simply don't have players who can beat good teams on a consistence basis. After that miracle vs PSG, we went from taking nearly every chance to missing sitters against Arsenal and Wolves then it just went downhill with individual mistakes and Tactics. Of course if your strikers can't even hit the barn door, you're not winning anything.
  30. May 10, 2019
    #30

    Lee565 Full Member

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    Considering the PSG game was the pinnacle of Solskjear's tenure as United manager, why did he not be more brave and give the midfield on that night more chances rather than reverting back to the slow and immobile Matic and Pogba who is like our version of Ozil for good and bad in terms of productivity on and off the ball, surely seeing as Solskjear wants to play a pressing game then why not have gone back to the midfield trio of Mctominay, Fred, Pereira or Herrera when he was fit once again as they would have been more suitable to implement that style?
  31. May 10, 2019
    #31

    Amadaeus Pochettino's mother

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    Nothing went wrong. Things just normalized after the new manager bounce and Ole was incapable of motivating these players to put in similar performances again. In other words, these players have the abilities to perform well, however there is a question mark over Ole’s managerial gameplan to get the best out of them. There is a lack of in game management and footballing philosophy present that we seem to be better of when our players were playing freestyle football when he got in :lol:
  32. May 10, 2019
    #32

    Sir Scott McToMinay Full Member

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    The PSG match wasn’t something we could build on, it was a fluke win, but the players did gave their all.
    I think the main reason why Ole didn’t go with the same midfield against Arsenal was because McTominay was gassed after the PSG. match and needed a rest.
  33. May 10, 2019
    #33

    johanovic Full Member

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    I hope you describing OGS as a "nepotistic knob" will come back to haunt you. How can you say that about a man that´s United through and through, took over a hopeless situation and gave us a glimpse of hope, has talked frankly about what he wants to do and has not had a preseason or transfer window yet? I agree with you on some (quite a lot) of the players but who do you think would have been able to get this group higher? The plain fact is that United have recruited very badly over a long period and OGS is left with that mess to sort out. I trust him more than Moyes,Van Gaal and that "great" manager that some think Mourinho is. He could not be botherd to unpack and stayed in a hotel showing clearly he was not in it all the way. OGS at least will give his all and I suspect he will surprise you.
  34. May 10, 2019
    #34

    talking robot Full Member

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    The only thing that has gone wrong is the short termism and knee jerk reactions of our fans.
  35. May 10, 2019
    #35

    Will Singh Full Member

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    I think there was no pressure on them, Jose fecked shit up and when Ole came the team was completely broken. So no expectations so they played without fear. As soon as we could get top 4 and win the CL shit fell apart and we bottled it badly.

    I love Ole but I think this is a too bigger task for him, if it was just taken on a winning team I'd say yes he is the right man but to rebuild a winning team that competes for all trophies every season for a manager who's still finding he's feet is massive.

    Hope I'm wrong and he does do the tasks in hand.
  36. May 10, 2019
    #36

    King7Eric Full Member

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    You really seem to have taken your tagline to heart.
  37. May 10, 2019
    #37

    slyadams Full Member

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    Pretty much this. Thinking that the post permanent period is the exception is wishful thinking. Its reverted to the norm. The players, as a group, are terrible, not necessarily in overall quality, but in attitude and application.
  38. May 10, 2019
    #38

    Buster15 Full Member

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    Bingo.
  39. May 10, 2019
    #39

    Rhyme Animal Modmins said "freeze" and I got numb

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    Nonchalantly scoring the winner...
    My opinion, and it seems so obvious in a way, is that the bounce wasn't the norm for Ole... We just wanted to believe that it was!

    And after the bounce we are seeing Ole's coaching without the effect of 'Mourinho's just gone'.

    To put it more simply - Utd have employed a manager of the level of Molde and Cardiff, and that is what's 'gone wrong'.

    I know this is an unpopular view, and the popular view is that the players are evil, Ole needs this, Ole needs that. But for me, 5 months of coaching with this squad is showing us what Ole's level is - if his coaching career before this didn't already.

    Next season will show us whether or not this is the case - and hopefully I'm wrong.
  40. May 10, 2019
    #40

    littlepeasoup Full Member

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    Give peas a chance.
    I think that when Ole came in we were playing without expectations, so that allowed a certain level of freedom to our play. As soon as we beat PSG and the top 4 seemed like a realistic possibility everything went to pot because we've got a bunch of players who aren't mentally (and physically) capable of handling those situations and working as a team unit.

    Also, our conditioning is awful, which has definitely not helped.