How and why did it go so wrong for Ole?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by IRELANDUNITED, May 10, 2019.

  1. May 10, 2019
    #41

    Red Devil Rising New Member

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    Is there really such a thing as a new manager bounce? Does that really mean players who downed tools.
  2. May 10, 2019
    #42

    MikeKing Full Member

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    Good post.
    Very good post. Gives some perspective honestly.
  3. May 10, 2019
    #43

    Sterling Archer Full Member

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    I love the man. I'm only trying to be as critical of him as I have been of the people I blame even more. And he's very last on my list for a reason. If he's going to be successful, Ole will need to be as ruthless as he has hinted. That means selling some of the kids he may have adored as a youth team coach. Can't hang on to them forever
  4. May 10, 2019
    #44

    Lee565 Full Member

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    I wouldn't have expected him to choose that same trio for the arsenal clash but considering how ineffective Matic and Pogba have been for different reasons for a lot of our games since that night, why not have dropped the two of them and used the other options to him in the past month or so.
  5. May 10, 2019
    #45

    Njord Full Member

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    Zidane was hired as RM manager, and our most important player got his head turned.
  6. May 10, 2019
    #46

    RedCurry Full Member

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    I see a couple of reasons. First of all, we announced his permanent deal at the worst possible time. You just simply don't change stuff when it is working.

    Second is just the physical fatigue. In Ole's first few games, the players ran themselves to the ground and no doubt they would have jelly legs since basically they've never had to do that before. It's easy to ridicule "work-rate" but athleticism is the single biggest defining factor in modern sports.
  7. May 10, 2019
    #47

    el3mel Full Member

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    Exactly this.
  8. May 10, 2019
    #48

    Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær Lutefisk is it!

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    Over time most managers break even. Ole's stats are just evening out after an unbelievable start.
  9. May 10, 2019
    #49

    BigRon1985 New Member

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    Probably the greatest new managerial bounce of all time. The shackles were off after Mourinho and there was no pressure and the players could go out and express themselves. Suddenly Top 4 which was nigh on impossible at the time of Solskjaer’s appointment was back on and the players started to crumble under the pressure because they don’t have the mental strength they need to complete. Even when Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal started to wobble with the finishing line in sight we couldn’t capitalise and now we are 6th where we before with the same despondency we had under Mourinho.
  10. May 10, 2019
    #50

    Bobcat Full Member

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    Yeah i think basically this...which is pretty damning on the players though, both on their mentality/loyalty and their fitness. We were the laziest team under Jose by quite a big margin, so you would imagine after playing half a season and running much less than pretty much everyone else, they should have some gas left in the tank.

    Go back and watch the first 5-6 games under Ole, we looked like a completely different team, pressing high and winning the ball in advanced positions and loads of offensive runs when we won the ball which is why Pogba did so well i imagine. The last 10 games or so, you could see we tried playing that way at the start of the games, but would fade out around the 15-20 minute mark and revert to the old zombie playing style we have seen a bit to much of over the years.

    Players like Mata, Lukaku and Matic i think will have no place here next year if this is the style we want to play.
  11. May 10, 2019
    #51

    Bestofthebest New Member

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    Glad to see there is a fair amount of common sense on here. Ole started like a house on fire and that was great. Just think if he had carried on like that we would now be in the top four, in the FA cup final and probably the European Cup final. Then what? Everyone would be saying it was all Mourinho's fault, Ed would be saying we don't need any signings this year and the Prem. League title would be in the bag for next year. Ole would be a God.

    Reality check. Ole managed the start for a mixture of the reasons already mentioned on here but it was never going to be as good as the beginning because basically the players are not good enough as a whole, the squad is too weak to be able to cope with any injuries ( of which there were many ) when the games were coming thick and fast.

    Throw in all the things we have no idea about but can speculate on such as contract negotiations, players throwing hissy fits when left out so Ole could give other players a chance. People need to calm down, wait till the summer is over and see what players are brought in and how the team start the season. If things are bad then start to judge Ole but don't expect too much too soon or we will be back to square one in no time. Bad enough that Ed cracks under pressure as it is, i.e. Going from giving the manager an extension to sacking him in the space of six months.
  12. May 10, 2019
    #52

    MisterLupus Full Member

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    Hit by injuries and a tight schedule plus we've been up against teams such as Barcelona, Arsenal, City and Chelsea. I honestly wasn't expecting much from the last two months - I believe the Everton and Huddersfield games stands out as the only real surprises - plus the Wolves result but they've surprised everyone lately it seems. We looked bad in our win against Watford too but then again we definitely deserved better against Arsenal so that sort of evens out I suppose. Also I would say individual errors in our defense and from our goalkeeper has played a significant part - and reaped max punishment too at the most crucial of moments.

    These six months has also been a period of tests and trials for Ole - which one has to expect from a new manager. Some of our underperforming players (Sanchez, Matic, Lukaku) are real class acts when on top of their games so even though it's easy to criticize the manager from the sideline for choosing them over other more motivated contenders actually willing to give a damn - it's equally understanding why he would want to try them out and gift them a final chance before deciding their future. After all we've invested a lot of money into them and they're players I believe any club would desire when at top of their games.

    I'm not concerned about Ole to be fair I think he's achieved as much as anyone would be able to during his first six months - way more than I personally dared hope for at least - but I'm more concerned with what so many others are pointing out that this club doesn't really have a real sports-oriented structure. That it's run as a commercial enterprise - a cash-cow - more so than a football club. We can't rely on CEOs and businessmen making decisions on the athletic side of things - they're as clueless as the rest of us in that regard. You need a proper well-organized setup of professionals and experts making all the team-related decisions - and if we don't get that in place I fear no manager in the world will be able to lift us back up.
  13. May 10, 2019
    #53

    SaintMuppet New Member

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    The guy has been here a few months. I’m not actually sure anything has gone wrong for him. The wrongness at the club is in no way ole’s doing (some weird substitutions aside), and was wronging it’s wrongness long before he arrived.

    This forum is full of folks who just want to moan at anything and anybody it seems.

    Leave him alone for now. Strap in and prepare for a bumpy ride and if you can’t hack it then give up following football....

    Edit.... you are all a bunch of drama queens
  14. May 10, 2019
    #54

    R'hllor Full Member

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    After first few very good performances at the start, which gave him wins, suddenly we got back into position to fight for top 4 again. That moment he made a decision to betray, sellout those performances and shift towards more result based approach. He said so himself in interview. Can imagine reactions, board with money in their eyes, Ole knowing that top 4 would get him perma job, fans love being in CL just for sake of it.

    After that even we were still winning, with each passing game, our performances went to shit and to more shit, so here we are at the end. With streak of games with nothing to lean to if we dont win 3 points and in games were we won (think 2 wins), we looked shit and lucky to get them.
  15. May 10, 2019
    #55

    Maticmaker Full Member

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    Its difficult to comprehend what is going on. Ole arrives and with his backroom 'team' apparently transforms a motely crew of players into winning ways, with attractive football, for over a dozen games. Admittedly there were some flukes in there with De Gea playing out of his skin against Spurs, but by and large we were 'flying' and the future seemed bright. Then all of a sudden, or as some say the moment Ole was made permanent manager, the wheels started to come off. Its hard to imagine Ole said or did anything different... but maybe he did!

    Whatever, the players went back to the low confidence, poor spirited, fractious squad they were under Mourinho, and we are all now back in the 'dumps' wondering what the hell comes next? Ole represents the 'United way' for some (whatever that is supposed to mean) so we have to go on with that belief for now. Ole's lack of top level management experience is going to be a weakness at times so a good solid DoF needs to be on hand to understand him, to aid him and maybe at times protect him. Football wise Ole knows what he wants to see, the big question is does he know how to get it?

    Ole has hinted he wants to rejuvenate the squad, not exactly sure what that means, except some players will be going and presumably some new ones arriving, either from within the club itself or on the open market. It may mean changes in training routines, systems of play, producing a 'United way of playing' that will run through the clubs players from top to bottom, we shall have to see, but wishing and hoping (and thinking and praying!!) wont be enough, some major and strong-minded decisions have to be made, lets hope Ole knows which ones and he gets the time to do it!
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  16. May 10, 2019
    #56

    Godfather Full Member

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    This combined with some tactical ineptness from Ole.
  17. May 10, 2019
    #57

    ManRed Full Member

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    It's a mix of too many reasons and we will only know for sure by next year this time or sooner.

    1. New manager bounce: A lot of these players were not playing for Mourinho and the dressing room had become toxic. When Ole came with his smile and freedom it made everyone a new turn. The games we had in the start were also easy so all looked really great.

    2. Injuries: Ole found a system and it clicked. Herrera allowed Pogba the freedom to find passes and Rashford found space. All went to shit when both got injured in the Liverpool game. Also we lost Matic Martial and Lingard before that game. The quality of players beyond the first XI were not good Sanchez and Fred hadn't performed all season and Ole had rightly pointed Lukaku needed fitness to sharpen up which he did.

    Mentality : This is the one which confuses me the most and has been happening since SAF left the club. We have had some of the top coaches at the club but they too became defensive really quick when things went wrong. Is it the recruitment where we have bought soft players who cant cope with the pressure or are just too moody. If someone here could explain it because this is a big reason for our demise since SAF.

    4. Fitness: The fitness and conditioning is poor.

    5. Off the field : Contract talks (De Gea, Rashford, Herrera and Mata) and transfer talks (Lukaku and Pogba) is not healthy for the dressing room. If players are not committed to the club its going to affect perfomance which it did. Lukaku, Pogba, Rashford and De gea have been under performing since their commitment is in question.

    Ole: He is still an inexperienced coach and managed the team poorly imho when performances were not going our way. No fixed style of play affected performances and results. Favoritism of certain individuals even when they were very very poor (Young, Rashford and may i say De Gea) gives the wrong message to the squad. He has a long way ahead and needs to make the following changes to the squad:

    - Develop a style of play and philosophy
    - Improve fitness, conditioning and mentality of the squad
    - Cut out the non commited players and build a squad who can run through the wall for the club
    - Drop players when not performing
    - Get recruitment right, players who are not technically good but mentally as well.
  18. May 10, 2019
    #58

    Nytram Shakes Full Member

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    It just typical caretaker manager syndrome, things are bad under the previous manager, some one new comes in gets a bounce but its doesn't last, happens all the time.

    I don't know why people are so shocked that a guy who no one thought was good enough at Christmas is actually struggling to turn round which is probably the most difficult job in football right now.
  19. May 10, 2019
    #59

    hobbers Full Member

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    Criminally unfit players with pathetically weak mentalities. A squad full of flat track bullies, zero leaders and no one who can contribute any nous in bigger games.

    A wage structure fecked up beyond all recognition by Sanchez and compounded by players like De Gea and Pogba who don't really want to be here. So many contract situations shitting on squad morale.

    No doubt the shift from "nice guy Ole he's just the caretaker and he's not being mean to us" to "permanent manager Ole just told me I was shite and won't be playing at the weekend" didn't help.
  20. May 10, 2019
    #60

    Di Maria's angel Captain of Moanchester United

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    De Gea? We've been playing the same shite football from well before the PSG game. Conceding the same number of chances. The difference is the God with the gloves turned into a mere mortal.
  21. May 10, 2019
    #61

    GM K Full Member

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    The 'new manager bounce' wore off. They resorted back to type and nothing in the club had changed except for the hiring of a new manager.

    I know Jose is despised by many here but have you ever wondered why such a successful manager like that said getting this team to come second last season was one of his finest achievements? That meant volumes.

    Let's look at the bright side. Now we know what the real issues are. Gives us a better chance to fix them.
  22. May 10, 2019
    #62

    Godfather Full Member

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    Because many really thought he was the man to take us forward. For no sensible reason of course but still.
  23. May 10, 2019
    #63

    HisDudeness New Member

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    cardiff game is to save his job. and for someone like ole, moyes, hughes, etc, it's hard for them to come back when they get sacked from a title winning club, they usually end up managing teams like fullham, watford, huddersfield, etc, for the remainder of their managerial careers.

    depending on which teams you are managing these days you don't get much time to turn things around

    i'm sure he is facing sack already

    doesn't matter. they haven't won in ages now. it's only cardiff... lose or maybe even draw... he could face sack.
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  24. May 10, 2019
    #64

    Lexxxzi New Member

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    Interesting. Do you have any links to these studies? Sounds logical. I refuse to believe that Ole is too incompetent to realise why the tactics actually worked in the early days, how it collapsed later, and that he did this out of his own will; all while a nobody like myself can see this. That's just stupid.
  25. May 10, 2019
    #65

    AJ10 Full Member

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    :lol::lol::lol:
  26. May 10, 2019
    #66

    wolvored Full Member

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    Maybe when Ole got the job he went in the dressing room and said 'Lads I got the job, you can revert back to normal now. Pints are on me tonight'. Just as believable as half the theories on here.
  27. May 10, 2019
    #67

    Sir Scott McToMinay Full Member

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    I genuinely hope you’re not a betting man, his job couldn’t be any more safe, the Cardiff match is completely meaningless.
  28. May 10, 2019
    #68

    Rhyme Animal Modmins said "freeze" and I got numb

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    What are you on about? Phelan has literally been announced as assistant manager today.

    That's basically a statement that the club will stick with Solskjaer for the Summer at least.
  29. May 10, 2019
    #69

    Paul_Scholes18 Full Member

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    psychology is very interesting in football. It was clear the Mourinho had lost the dressing room and that the overall confidence of the squad was very low.
    Ole came in as a fresh person with positive mentality and the players started to grow in confidence and play much better. Pogba played bloody awesome during this time and Rashford was scoring goals.

    As time goes on though this early boost did go down. Our general ideas and tactics didn't seem to evolve or make us play any better. We still did win games, but we didn't play as well. This lack of development probably effected the players mentality and confidence dropped. Effort from some did go down and others tried, but dropped in form.
    Then came a period of big games and things started going wrong. We went from having attacking players in fresh form into all them being low on confidence, form or injured.

    This was a big test for Ole, but he didn't really know what to do. Tactics, man management and a lot of things didn't work out and he didn't know how to turn things around once the negative momentum started.

    We also lack players who can perform in the dark. Leaders that step up in terms of performances when we most need them even if things are not working out around them. I think Herrera got a bit in that, but he was out injured for most of the time. Mctominay did really well though, but he is not raising the players around him as much.

    Our expected big players in terms of scoring goals in Lukaku, Rashford, Pogba, Martial, Sanchez (before this season) have all been pretty useless recently in terms of scoring goals. Plus De gea has been almost as bad as I would have been in goal recently giving away goals in almost every game.
  30. May 10, 2019
    #70

    Nytram Shakes Full Member

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    and many are still refusing to admit it was a rash decision, going down the old he deserves a summer routine... yeah cos letting an obvious rash decision spend hundreds of millions sounds out of loyalty is much better idea then admitting you made a mistake....
  31. May 10, 2019
    #71

    Casanova85 Full Member

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    Chronology:

    a) New manager boost
    b) Some "easy" consecutive PL games. Xmas + Honeymoon in Winter happiness.
    c) Back in the Top4 race


    downward spiral begins

    d) 2-0 defeat at Paris
    e) Miracle at Paris but VAR controversy included
    f) Injuries, lack of fitness

    g) gets appointed as new manager
    h) players relax, DDG and Pogba flirt with other clubs or seem unhappy
    i) team can't handle the pressure to stay in the Top4 race, incredible dip in performance by some players (DDG, Young, Matic, Fred, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Lukaku), not even with Autumn '18 Mourinho the lack of quality, effort or ideas seemed so evident.
    j) Wolves and the FA Cup.
    k) UCL QFs vs Barça
    l) Everton 4-0 Man Utd
    m) Huddersfield 1-1 Man Utd. Top4 race ends.
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  32. May 10, 2019
    #72

    Tom Van Persie No relation

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    :lol:
  33. May 10, 2019
    #73

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    Lost the plot haha
  34. May 10, 2019
    #74

    lewwoo Full Member

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    Because we have a team of mercenaries due to terrible transfer decisions and soon as they weren't getting their own way they have downed tools again. There has to come a point when we stop blaming managers and start looking at the common themes. Players and board.
  35. May 10, 2019
    #75

    RedNed77 Full Member

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    I'd pin that on Jose. I remember Bailly's debut for us and I IIRC he was blowing out of his arse by the 75th minute after a supposed good pre-season. It wasnt accidental by Jose, he likes to play the same players all season long. If you're going to do that; you need plenty of horse placenta and PED's like Pep or, you need to take it easy on the players.

    Rest defence, no pressing, light training, not too strenuous pre-season, the players are just not equipped to play any other kind of game and I don't particularly blame them. It took Klopp a couple of years to get his players into good enough shape to play the kind of game Ole wants to play. He'll need time.
  36. May 10, 2019
    #76

    MUFC OK Full Member

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    This has been the case for many many years. We just seem light years behind our rivals in so many aspects. Our players look weak, physically not fit enough and pick up injuries all the time. When was the last year we didn’t have an injury crisis month/2 months?

    We seriously have to look at our fitness and conditioning coaches and physios. It’s symbolic of the wider problem, we need the best in class in all areas of the club and whilst other clubs have been striving for that, we have slept for years.
  37. May 10, 2019
    #77

    AFC NimbleThumb Full Member

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    are we really at the point where we’re asking “what went wrong” for a man who has been caretaker manager for half of his 6 month tenure; hasn’t actually signed a player; & has more points domestically than all but 2 teams that have set a record pace.

    i have my doubts over OGS but can we support the manager for more than half a season please.
  38. May 10, 2019
    #78

    Revaulx Full Member

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    I will be amazed if the board let Ole spend hundreds of millions this summer. They will already be having doubts about him.
  39. May 10, 2019
    #79

    bosnian_red Worst scout to ever exist

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    A mixture of really tough fixtures, fatigue because players couldn't keep up an intense style and some unlucky results all leading to a loss of confidence, maybe a different mindset as Ole was planning long term and not short term anymore. I wouldn't say it's all "gone so wrong", but I'm sure he's discovered a lot about the squad over this half season, and obviously changes have to be made. Hopefully with these changes over the summer, we can start to move forward and hopefully we'll see progress. This half season was always a weird situation to judge him on IMO, and I'll always say taking over half way through a season is basically a free pass.
  40. May 10, 2019
    #80

    Fosu-Mens Full Member

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    Molde are one of the teams that runs the most in the Norwegian league, and a number of their players are in a really good physical condition(by the leagues standard). So expect our remaining players next season to improve in this area.