How and why did it go so wrong for Ole?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by IRELANDUNITED, May 10, 2019.

  1. May 11, 2019

    matt23 Full Member

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    Ole obviously expects the players to be on the front foot, press and string attacks together with pace but the squad has been put together by a combination of negative managers who were more about defensive shape than seeing skilful players express themselves and run.

    Sure enough after a few weeks of watching us play with a higher intensity the injuries piled up and killed most of our momentum halfway through the Liverpool game.

    Also I think fluking our way through the PSG game was probably asking for trouble when you have a dressing room sprinkled with weak mentality and players that seem to prefer looking cool to working hard.

    Is Ole the best manager in the world? Probably not. Will we be contention for much next season? Probably not, but I expect to be watching a different kind of United come the end of next season. Hopefully one with some more likeable players who can at the very least match opponents effort every game.
  2. May 11, 2019

    youmeletsfly Full Member

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    The worrying thing is that he's saying "hey, we want to buy young players, make them starts " etc.

    To me that's a big "I'm not going to be backed in the transfer window" message.
  3. May 11, 2019

    NWRed New Member

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    It hasn't gone wrong for Ole as he hasn't really started yet, he's not even had a pre season to drill the players let alone a couple of transfer windows to start sorting the squad out. Give the guy a chance.
  4. May 11, 2019

    m1tch Full Member

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    Players have downed tools again, but probably not because of Ole, but because they want to leave this summer and are no longer committed.

    Maybe the mole at the club leaked to the players which one's of them Ole has decided aren't part of his plans going forward. Guess that's another possibility.
  5. May 11, 2019

    Garethw scored 25-30 goals a season as a right footed RW

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    It’s gone wrong for Ole because he’s not good enough. People won’t admit it, but that is the truth.

    He’s won the fecking euro lottery with this appointment.
  6. May 12, 2019

    MAME DIOUF 32 Full Member

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    I think time is more likely to prove you right about Ole than wrong, but I don't think the drop in performances really comes down to him. He inherited a group of players who either aren't good enough or can't be bothered or both. I'd be surprised if he did turn out to be a long term success but I don't blame him for where we are right now
  7. May 12, 2019

    ash_86 Full Member

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    Ding ding ding..

  8. May 12, 2019

    Mr Anderson Eats, shoots, leaves

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    He has no proper support or vision from the board and/or Woodward. He is also vastly inexperienced.

    He’s a great guy and gets the club. But I think any manager would struggle in this regime, mixed with the absolute dicks we have in the dressing room.

    We are a mess. It’s not one thing that you can pinpoint as going wrong for Ole - it’s just a shitshow here.
  9. May 12, 2019

    SAF-GIGGSY New Member

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    Ole needs zlatan he will sort this lot out they wasn't playing like this when he was here!
  10. May 12, 2019

    Wolf8312 New Member

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    You’re spot on about the lack of service to the forwards which is no doubt frustrating them immensely especially as they get a lot of the blame from fans who don’t realize how difficult goals are under such circumstances. I noticed it especially in the city game, as even counter attacks were undermanned and lacking in proper midfield or defensive support/follow up. Pretty obvious too, even not watching the games when you consider the amount of goals or shots on target just recently.
  11. May 12, 2019

    Un4givableB Full Member

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    Go wrong? Go right you mean, he's fluked his way into Utd job.
  12. May 12, 2019

    Amadaeus Pochettino's mother

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    It will be too late until people realize this
  13. May 12, 2019

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    The team is simply not for enough. On top of having terminal squad holes
  14. May 12, 2019

    Champagne Football Full Member

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    I'm starting to think the players performed initially due to Mourinho mountain of misery being lifted from the club. But since then, have realize that they are being managed by a guy who belongs in the Norweigen league managing players who are divide their day jobs as fishermen, with being part time footballers, despite Ole being the loveliest guy ever.
    But last time we gave a guy a massive contract based on being the loveliest guy ever, all we got each week was a really nice weekly blog, and endless invisible performances.
    I've honestly lost faith in Ole if he can't get at least a draw home to Cardiff with the players he's got today.
  15. May 12, 2019

    Heelguy57 New Member

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    I really feel badly for Ole. He was put into a position that was untenable. He was not ready for this. Woodward should be fired simply for jumping the gun with the permanent appointment.
  16. May 12, 2019

    SAFMUTD Full Member

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    He’s a poor manager, that’s why it went south for him so fast.
  17. May 12, 2019

    Lentwood Full Member

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    The players are bottle merchants and very average footballers at best

    We beat some cannon fodder during the new manager bounce and we got some extraordinary luck in games against Spurs, Chelsea, PSG and Arsenal

    I would say our squad is probably the 6th-8th best in the league in terms of talent. I would say in terms of application and attitude we are one of the worst
  18. May 12, 2019

    DeGea Full Member

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    He was lucky and we failed to recognise that fact. Instead we attributed it to talent.

    It was not his fault he was lucky.

    The club’s analysis was wrong.
  19. May 12, 2019

    cyril C Full Member

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    Can't possibly say our team is worse than a relegated team. We have no mid-week distraction no international duty, both clubs want to close the office.

    Even under Mourinho we played like a mid-table team like Watford.
  20. May 12, 2019

    Random Task Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Jose is the last person to talk.

    He is largely at fault for our current predicament.
  21. May 12, 2019

    The Hacker Full Member

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    It ‘went wrong’ way before he joined. This is the same collection of individuals (not a team) that were piss poor under a far more experienced manager.

    Plus, for DDG and few others it’s been a long 2 seasons with the WC in the middle.

    Whilst I’m not trying to give them all an excuse, a few do need a break.

    OGS needs to be very clear from today however, on what he expects from them when they come back ready for a season that they need to perform better in.

    I’m not that optimistic about next season yet. Not even about the summer! I have very little faith in anything changing for a few years yet.
  22. May 12, 2019

    Bestofthebest New Member

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    This team is not very good but I am more worried that it will be even worse next year. Our better players are looking for a way out and we will find it difficult to attract decent players in the close season. Like it or not Utd do not have that magic about them anymore and are looked on by the owners as " a source of income " We are now on a long and difficult journey before we get anywhere near our former position, if we ever do! However long it takes I am sure I will not be around to see it at my age.

    All I can say it has been a very interesting journey for me to watch Utd from the late 1950s to the present day but the last six to seven years have been far and away the worst I have ever seen and what has happened this season is no great surprise. I will always support Utd. it is part of my life but I don't see me ever getting the enjoyment I once got from this once magnificent club.
  23. May 12, 2019

    Peter Brewer New Member

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    I was a big Solskjaer fan, and still is. I believe Ole's past has experiences from the successful period that can be harvested from.
    And I believe he can create it with a little time and the right set of players.

    So why did Ole initially succeed and then failed?
    First Ole experienced record breaking good performance, then record breaking bad performance.

    I believe it has to do at least 50% with the squad psychology/morale. Then other 50% is a mix of opponents being tactical aware of the new playing style, player physical fatigue, expected goals statistics evening out etc.

    So let's talk about player morale.
    The big dramatic change in performances with the currect squad, has proven that this is mostly a psychological defect.
    The squad have displayed a manic/depressive/narcissistic/snowflake mind set when the tide turned. And Solskjaer is partly to bless and blame:
    Because Ole's praise of the squad lifted their self belief above their abilities for a while. So why did they fall down so hard?

    The part of the success is also a big part of the problem:
    Ole lifted the squad with a lot of positive (partly delusional) mantras:

    Eg.
    1) wearing a United shirt on the pitch means you have abundant talent
    2) the club has traditions of good results, and therefore should naturally be a contender for winning whatever again. (Like magic)
    3) United always bouce back after a loss
    4) United always finish the season strong

    Ole made the public statements about the club and player traditions in a way that the players themselves could mistakenly believe that this could magically happen without putting in 100% of their own effort.

    Solskjaer's praise made initially everyone perform, narcissists or not, they all started believing in Ole's pep talk (when the results were good);
    The squad believed that they were good because they were United players, not the other way around.

    The initial praise (and luck according to Xgoals statistics) created a false sense of security and belief which created better self belief and better performance.
    When (expected goals) statistics finally corrected/evened out, as statistics always will, Ole's positive mantras from the press conferences started falling flat:

    Big players are often big egoes. Big egoes are often big narcissists. Narcissists like nothing more than someone praising them. They will not hear about reality check. That's a complete insult to a narcissist.
    (I will not put labels on spesific players, but clearly many squad players carry the narcissistic traits if you know the signs.)
    Any squad can only take so many narcisist before it get toxic. And they are the worst poision when things are not good. Because they never fault themselves, but will blame other team members or managers tactics.

    So the toxic player/players group which are narcisists have lost respect/trust in Ole:
    - They can fault his pep-talk statements for not being true (even if they are the one supposed to work for the results, but again narcissists don't follow that train of thoughts)
    - They have been told to take a reality check. Worst thing to say to a narcissist.
    - Ole is concidered having a weak persona by a narcissist, which only respect other big-ego narcissists, or persons praising them.

    The fact that Ole is a sympath, not a narcisist, which many big managers are, is at this stage working against him.
    Because narcissists work the mind games far better than normal people. And they can't be changed. They only thrive under success, but they have to be a part of producing that success themselves.
    At the moment the narcissistic force of the player group has proven to be to strong, and has to be reduced.
    Normal talents will only take so much from narcissists before they want to move on. It's like this for all workers in all areas.

    Ole has talked a lot about getting the players with the right personality. So he is aware of it.
    I believe that narcissistic managers, maybe like our two previous ones, don't have the same antennas for avoiding narcissistic colleagues and employees. Simply because they don't see anything wrong about people having abundance of self confidence.

    Well, the problem is now straight in our faces. Because when the going gets tough, narcissists will always be the ones to feck up and blaming everyone else, creating the toxic atmosphere. Most people have experienced it and know what I talk about.

    Ole need to sort it out, getting a healthy core of intelligent hard working non-narcissistic players with the skill set matching his tactics.
    And never accept narcissism to root and rot the core of the club again.

    Then we will have a squad again, that will fight for the shirt, the club, and all the rest of us. Not primarily for their own ambitions sake.

    For what it's worth I feel that the one thing we achieved this season is to get to see the core of the problem, which now can finally be adressed properly.
    Restore core values with a team respecting the club above anything. Put together a team that is fighting every minute in all games. Then I can start enjoy watching again and feel proud to support this club.
  24. May 12, 2019

    Clerp Dawkins New Member

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    Absolutely spot on, the Glazers want to do everything on the cheap to support their massive dividends
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2019
  25. May 12, 2019

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    In current form, low on confidence and with the issues I highlighted. Why not?

    Yet our issues are planets apart....
  26. May 13, 2019

    MUFC OK Full Member

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    Obviously Poch looks like a no brainer in hindsight, but we should remember the reasons that everyone was ademant Ole got the job.

    Now he needs to demand that he is backed to sign the players he and his staff want, if the Glazers/Woodward arent willing to do that, he should walk away immediately.
  27. May 13, 2019

    Kerry Donaghy New Member

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    Surely someone has to mention the individual errors by De Gea here.
    It was all going perfectly until that Granit Xhaka shot.
    Then followed error after error.
    In a game of such fine margins, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say those errors cost us a top 4 place.
    If we had of got top 4, from where we were when Jose left, then people would now be calling Ole a genius, as I say, fine margins.

    BTW, I am not for one second saying that the recent terrible run of form is solely down to De Gea but I would say he was massively culpable in it.

    Yet, which is why I feel the need to say it, if you read the many many articles and posts written about what went wrong for Ole, you barely see De Geas name mentioned, in fact most people seem to feel sorry for him because he's not currently getting paid enough (literally the first I've ever heard that excuse being made for any footballer).

    Baffling in my opinion.
  28. Jul 9, 2019

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

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    Whilst we had a bit of luck during Ole's first few games, more notably against Spurs, we won some really challenging games, against top opponents, and all in all, put in some really good performances, in my opinion.

    Whilst I don't condone our transfer strategy, in that I feel we have yet again left it too late to sort things out, is our squad really as poor as people point out?

    Is Ole not going all out on transfers because he actually trusts our squads ability? Did we only fall off because we got tired, complacent or lacked confidence, having lost a couple on the bounce?

    I personally don't believe a team can go on the kind of run we did, beating the type of teams we beat, without having ability.

    Ole has been said to be targeting the fitness levels of the squad. As a squad, we're nowhere near fit enough and Ole shares those sentiments.
    "Of course, we know our fitness is nowhere near good enough".

    If, and its a big if our players take to Ole's training methods and up their fitness to the required levels to press more or less or game i.e. Liverpool, Spurs, City, then can we compete?

    Don't get me wrong, as I said, I do still think we need more players in of better quality, but we've put up good performances against top teams and that doesn't go overnight.

    You're only as good as you're last game, and because we finished the season losing to the likes of Everton, Cardiff and drawing to Huddersfield, of course people are going to really question our team, but that is exactly the same team that beat the likes of Spurs, Chelsea and Arsenal away.
  29. Jul 9, 2019

    0le Full Member

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    Both views are very convincing. Your view that the players tired, injuries, and contract situations played a role. But the other view that Ole is inexperienced, and the good games were just the "new manager effect", is difficult to ignore.

    I think most fans are probably hoping for the best, rather than expecting it right now and that is rather depressing for a club of our financial clout.
  30. Jul 10, 2019

    hobbers Full Member

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    It was never going right to begin with. It worked brilliantly when he was doing what he was brought in for: being nice to the players, building them up a bit, just being a familiar face, good relationship with the fans etc. He didn't have to worry about player contracts or signings or long term philosophies.

    But, as expected, the fans and the media deluded themselves and hyped him up and gave Woodward/the board a fecking get out of jail free card for them to install as manager what (should have been obvious to all) would just be a total patsy, a fall guy, a 'Moyes with more goodwill'. An easy vehicle for them to lower expectations by sleight of hand using a the "club legend becomes hero manager" narrative who promotes young domestic talents, who would literally bleed and die for the club, rather than those nasty continental players who don't work as hard or something.

    And football players may generally be a suit or two short of a full deck of cards, but they're not total morons. They can see that United under Ole with this new transfer ethos is a doomed enterprise and the smarter ones/better ones/ones with smarter agents are no doubt ensuring they keep well clear of it.
  31. Jul 10, 2019

    Rhyme Animal Modmins said "freeze" and I got numb

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    Nonchalantly scoring the winner...
    The sound of the nail being hit squarely upon its head.

    Absolutely correct on every front - in my opinion at least.
  32. Jul 10, 2019

    Manoucha09 New Member

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    Yeah this opinion makes a lot of sense. However, in my opinion, I feel some are being too harsh on Ole. While I can understand those who are cautious as to how much of an effect he actually had on the footballing side of our early rejuvenation, his smile and being a familiar face was surely not enough to get the results we did early on.

    I feel we got very lucky (Spurs game stands out in particular), but you make your own luck. We were very disciplined until the last half hour or so in the game and could easily have been 3 up going into those anxious last few minutes. The Liverpool game was another which showed his good in game management - Ole simply ran out of luck in that game. How often do you see as many injuries at the start of a game as we did that day? It completely ruined his game plan and to get a point that day was great. The Arsenal game was the first where we lost a game we should have won - Lukaku puts away any of his chances and we're winning that game easily. If my memory serves me right that was also the start of De Gea's howler show towards the end of the season, another extremely unlucky point.

    To cut this short, I feel we've got to give him a chance - and by a chance I mean stand behind Ole more than we did with Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho. Yes he doesn't have the experience, but how did experience help his three predecessors? Ironically, their experience turned into stubbornness which meant once the going went tough and a few players or fans revolted, they never changed their 'philosophy' and left us in a worse position than when they took over. Obiously Van Gaal is an exception, but anyone coming after Moyes was going to seem successful - an FA Cup and Champions League football should not be seen as success at Manchester United, simple as that.

    So in answer to @Walters_19_MuFc yes I definitely think we'll do much better next season, if only living off the hope that fitness levels, injuries and contractual issues played a massive role in Ole 'running out of luck.' We need to sort out the situation with Pogba and De Gea. We need world class players like Pogba, but we need them dedicated 100% to the cause. There's no use having world class players who are going to sulk when things aren't going there way - not necessarily a criticism of Pogba but in general; players like Hazard last season come to mind. Basically players who decide when they want to be world class and when they can't really be bothered.

    I'd also love to see us take disciplinary action against any players we feel are stirring up any trouble. I disagree with those who think we need to move on from Sir Alex; he may not be the manager but his presence is still there and Ole will be getting as much advice as he wants from him. He also has a great coaching team to work with. I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll at least qualify for the Champions League next season and, depending on who we sign and who leaves, I feel we can go as far as coming close to a title challenge next season.

    My optimism may be seen as blind optimism (it is!) but I prefer to be positive and hope for the best. Get behind the team. When it gets tough, support with constructive criticism. We finally have a man at the helm who doesn't seem stubborn or stuck in his ways and so, rather than complain about how much he lacks experience and how poor his tactical approach might be, I look at games like the PSG one and remember that football includes an element of luck. Again, it's luck which you make for yourself. We did it in '99 against Munich. Hopefully we can do it in 2020 on as many fronts as possible.
  33. Jul 10, 2019

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

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    Is that even a thing, though, and if it is, it still means the players need the ability to not only raise their physical game, but also be technically and tactically good enough to carry out orders of the manager.

    For example, a team in the lower half of the table might appoint a new manager, but lose to a team in the top half, who has had the same manager all season, because they're simply not good enough, despite putting in maximum effort.

    I also don't believe that the 'new manager effect' would have lasted for 2/3 months. It's normally just a few games.

    Either way, as I said, the players have shown what level they play at if/when they put their mind to it, and I think it's a case of Ole not only getting them to the required fitness level, but also keeping the squad motivated.