How much damage did Dalglish do to his legacy during his second spell at Anfield

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Eyepopper, Jun 7, 2012.

  1. Jun 7, 2012
    #81

    Waltraute She-Devil

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Messages:
    6,128
    Location:
    Der Irrnis und der Leiden Pfade kam ich
    From a pure footballing perspective -- minor blot, given that his reputation within the game is more or less totally dependent on his achievements as a player. That's not to say he didn't do well as a manager in his first Liverpool appointment, and at Blackburn, it's just to say as a manager he was good, as a player he was great.

    I used to have a lot of respect for him as a man too (as far as you can know someone 'as a man' through his public persona), especially after the way he handled Hillsborough.

    Seeing him waffle on and lash out in post-match interviews like some shed-dwelling tinfoilhatter; seeing him in that idiotic t-shirt -- I honestly found it profoundly depressing.

    I do think the impact of all this will fade with time, though, as with Clough's less than stellar moments.
  2. Jun 7, 2012
    #82

    Grinner Fat gutted, hairy shouldered, stinky Arse.

    Joined:
    May 5, 2003
    Messages:
    50,001
    Location:
    I love free dirt and rocks!
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    He presided over Liverpool's decline firstly in the late 1980's when they slipped from being the best team in Europe and got overtaken by Arsenal and Man Utd and secondly, in his most recent spell, when they became a mid-table cup side from top five finishers.
  3. Jun 7, 2012
    #83

    Rory 7 Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    A car park in Saipan
    Yip. Also all true.
  4. Jun 7, 2012
    #84

    Moston Red Formerly Giggs1973

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,772
    Location:
    Manchester
    His reputation as a manager is screwed mainly because of the way he handled the Suarez affair but I'm sure he's still a god in the eyes of the Liverpool fans.
  5. Jun 7, 2012
    #85

    Moriarty Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,783
    Location:
    Reichenbach Falls
    Rush scored 340+ goals for Liverpool whereas Dalglish got something like 120. I think that makes Rush by far the more prolific of the two.
  6. Jun 7, 2012
    #86

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    35,733
    Location:
    ... and they are lovely beyond any singing of it.
    Vanilla v tutti frutti.
  7. Jun 7, 2012
    #87

    redman5 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,327
    Location:
    In a world of my own. People know me here.
    How the feck did you come to that conclusion ?

    We were champions & top of the league when Dalglish resigned in Feb 1991. We had 3 future England international players coming through the ranks in McManaman, Fowler, & Redknapp. & as for people saying he inherited a great side when he took over in 1985. We were actually 2nd best to a very good Everton side that year. Souness had gone to Italy, whilst Kenny himself was coming to the end of his career. Fast forward just 4 years from our last match of the 1984 season when we won the European Cup, the league title, & the League Cup, & you'll only find 2 players (Grobbelaar & Hansen) who played in the final match of the 1988 season, who also featured in the 1984 European Cup final. Our 3 most influential players from the late 70's & early 80's, Dalglish, Rush, & Souness, were not part of that great side that romped home to the title in 88. That was very much Kenny's side. He left a great legacy for Souness, but when he decided to get rid of Peter Beardsley then replace him with Paul Stewart, & bring in yard-dogs like Ruddock & Dicks, it was no great surprise to see us slip very quickly off our perch.
  8. Jun 7, 2012
    #88

    redman5 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,327
    Location:
    In a world of my own. People know me here.
    A lot of those goals were set up by Dalglish. Rushie wasn't half the player after Kenny packed in playing.
  9. Jun 7, 2012
    #89

    Gambit Desperately wants to be a Muppet

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2004
    Messages:
    27,749
    In answer to the op, not enough.
  10. Jun 7, 2012
    #90

    redman5 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,327
    Location:
    In a world of my own. People know me here.
    To those fans who were not around when Kenny was at his playing peak. The best comparison I could probably make is that of Eric Cantona. Neither player was blessed with great pace, but their vision, & ability to produce something out of nothing, set them apart from a lot of other players/mortals. For me though, Dalglish had the edge down to the fact he did his stuff both at home, & in Europe.
  11. Jun 7, 2012
    #91

    Grinner Fat gutted, hairy shouldered, stinky Arse.

    Joined:
    May 5, 2003
    Messages:
    50,001
    Location:
    I love free dirt and rocks!
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    It was KD himself who dropped Beardsley for David Speedie. Paul Stewart wasn't a replacement for Beardsley and Dean Saunders, who Souness brought in, was an instant success. Ruddock and Dicks came in 1993. Fowler wasn't 'coming through the ranks' under KD...his first appearance was in 1993. Redknapp was bought from Bournemouth and given his debut by Souness. McMananamaman only had two starts under KD.
  12. Jun 7, 2012
    #92

    fishfingers15 Contributes to username and tagline changes

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,604
    Location:
    Nani Are you ok? Are you ok? Are you ok Nani?
    Did he play with his collar turned up?
  13. Jun 7, 2012
    #93

    fadas Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    2,176
    Dalglish got to play with the regular first 11 in Europe. Something denied Cantona with the ridiculous foreigner rule.

    Pity you got rid of him as far as I'm concerned. He was so far behind the times it was only going to get better. For everyone else.
  14. Jun 7, 2012
    #94

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    35,733
    Location:
    ... and they are lovely beyond any singing of it.
    Dalglish had obviously lost the plot when he signed Speedie and then Carter.
  15. Jun 7, 2012
    #95

    fadas Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    2,176
    I hope all you younger United fans are listening to Retardman5 telling you how it was when "Kenny" was at his playing peak. "Kenny".

    I remember those days and he was still a horrible fat arsed cnut then as well.
  16. Jun 7, 2012
    #96

    Snake Plissken Aka LTS10

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    Messages:
    5,016
    hes turned them into a mid table team.

    He handled the Suarez racism issue horribly, dragging his clubs name through the mud, then theres his attitude and snidey remarks with the media.

    All in all I'd say hes taken his own club down a few notches!
  17. Jun 7, 2012
    #97

    stubie Full Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    8,012
    Dalglish lost plenty of respect after the Suarez incident. There was no way back for him after that.
  18. Jun 7, 2012
    #98

    Grinner Fat gutted, hairy shouldered, stinky Arse.

    Joined:
    May 5, 2003
    Messages:
    50,001
    Location:
    I love free dirt and rocks!
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    Carter fooled a few decent managers!
  19. Jun 7, 2012
    #99

    golden_blunder mijn naam is Golden Blunder en ik hou van team LVG

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2000
    Messages:
    71,126
    Location:
    Watching..
    I remember KD fielding something like 7 defenders in his team just before he quit.
  20. Jun 7, 2012

    Gillespie Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2002
    Messages:
    4,680
    Location:
    Pitying all you northerners doomed to a life of cu

    True....very true....but don't you think Hicks and Gillette are primarily culpable for Liverpool's decline these past few years/
  21. Jun 7, 2012

    Cheesy Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    13,860
    Location:
    Scotland
    Damage might not be the right word, but he certainly did a lot more harm than good for them in his 2nd spell there.

    Firstly, the money he wasted on rather average players was absurd. Had that money been well spent on players who warranted those fees, then Liverpool would have either been in the top 4, or very close to being there having just missed out. Now though, they're miles off that and there's a slim chance of them getting back there in the next few years unless Rodgers can pick out some gems in the market for nothing.

    The way he handled the media didn't help either, and only worsened the reputation of the club. I think that would've played a part in his dismissal. No doubt the owners would've been fuming when they saw the t-shirts and his interview after the Man United game. They care about the reputation of the club since their money is tied to it, and he, as well as Suarez, went a long way to destroying that.
  22. Jun 7, 2012

    Badunk Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,040
    Location:
    Occupied Merseyside
    When your fan base approaches everything and everyone to do with the club with a religious zeal, you're either gonna be a god or a devil to them. Dalglish is a god to them and so, in the way people of faith do, they praise him for the things they think he did right and excuse him for the things he did wrong. He brought the entire Suarez shitstorm upon himself and yet the majority of Liverpool fans blamed Evra, the FA, the media, the race relations spokesman, Suarez' lawyer, FSG, Fergie, etc, etc. He utterly decimated his legacy in the opinion of the majority of british football fans, but he probably enhanced it quite a bit among Liverpool fans, who, reverting to type, thank him for his 'class' (for tweeting 'good luck' to Rodgers) and blame the pressure of the job for his piss poor handling of Suarez, signings and tactics.
  23. Jun 7, 2012

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    35,733
    Location:
    ... and they are lovely beyond any singing of it.
    Liverpool were doing fine with Benitez 2008/9, they could have won the league if his innate cautiousness hadn't got the better of him.That season at Arsenal we went down to 10 (after the most ludicrous sending off of all time by that lettuce Webb's wonder) and yet he settled for the point with 30 minutes to win the game. Had FSG taken over then they would be a serious force but 3 years of rubbish have taken their toll.
  24. Jun 7, 2012

    Badunk Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,040
    Location:
    Occupied Merseyside
    Fergie pulled off the same masterstroke against Arsenal, remember? :lol:
  25. Jun 7, 2012

    Kraftwerker Formerly RedAddict

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    10,864
    Location:
    We can't stop here. This is bat country.
    He's a man stuck in the dark ages, who has failed to grasp the advancements in the game of football and in society at large.

    Apart from his poor management, his incendiary actions and retarded interviews were genuinely embarrassing.

    Can't have been easy for intelligent LFC fans seeing their hero reduced to that.

    He deserves no pity though. The way he acted was despicable. I hope it plagues him with regrets for the rest of his life.

    [​IMG]

    Bellend.
  26. Jun 7, 2012

    Grinner Fat gutted, hairy shouldered, stinky Arse.

    Joined:
    May 5, 2003
    Messages:
    50,001
    Location:
    I love free dirt and rocks!
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    Years from now one of those T-shirts will sell for a lot of money.
  27. Jun 7, 2012

    redman5 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,327
    Location:
    In a world of my own. People know me here.
    Speedie only signed a few weeks before Dalglish quit. Beardsley was out injured with torn ankle ligaments at the time. His first game back came in KD's last match as manager, the 4-4 draw against Everton, in which he scored 2 goals.

    Graham Souness inherited not only a great set of players, but also had 3 talented youngsters coming through in Fowler, Redknapp, & McManaman. He fecked it up by getting rid of the likes of Beardsley, Houghton, & McMahon all within his first 12 months of being in charge. His record in the transfer market was abysmal. Out of the 17 players signed, only Mark Wright & Rob Jones could be classed as successes. Dean Saunders was a headless chicken who only averaged a goal every 4 games. He left after just over a year. Then how can we forget the likes of Istvan Kozma & Torben Piechnik.

    Liverpool ended up finishing 2nd in the league in 1991. In Souness's 3 years in charge we finished 6th, 6th, & 8th. He's the one to blame for our downfall.
  28. Jun 7, 2012

    Moriarty Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,783
    Location:
    Reichenbach Falls
    Who would you rather have on the end of a cross in a game where a goal was vital, Rush or Dalglish?

    My scouse mate says Rush every time. How about you?
  29. Jun 7, 2012

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    35,733
    Location:
    ... and they are lovely beyond any singing of it.
    Yeah, but if you want to end up winning the game in the end it's Dalglish every time. Rush, Lineker and Shearer were very efficient goalscorers, often ineffective against top teams and nowhere near complete forwards like Dalglish who could deliver at any level.
  30. Jun 8, 2012

    Stack Leave Pep Guardiola alone!!!

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2006
    Messages:
    4,802
    Location:
    Auckland New Zealand
    Who would you want on the ball in the box in a game where a goal was vital?
    Who would you want to make the final pass to a striker who would score if he got the ball in the box in a vital game?

    Your scenario is as stupid as mine are because you have tailored it to fit Rush and I tailored mine to fit Dalglish.

    I spent years hating Dalglish when he was playing because he was 2 passes ahead of everyone else and you knew if he got the ball within a half chance of scoring he would score. Rush was a brilliant player but for me Dalglish was better.

  31. Jun 8, 2012

    Denis' cuff Full Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    5,951
    Location:
    here
    nice smileys - take your own advice and read the post - at no stage did I say Rush was a better player so stop being a prick.

    see above

  32. Jun 8, 2012

    redman5 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,327
    Location:
    In a world of my own. People know me here.
    I'd go for Rush. However, if you gave me the option of having to do without one of those 2 for an important game (injury, suspension etc). I'd also opt for Rush. Dalglish was far more influential when it came to the team overall.

    & FWIW. A different debate altogether. But I felt that Robbie Fowler in his prime was a better striker than Rush.
  33. Jun 8, 2012

    Denis' cuff Full Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    5,951
    Location:
    here
    I know Rush played in a better team and Fowler was more likely to score outside the box than Rush but what were his stats like? Played/scored?

    I've just always thought Rush under-appreciated, maybe cos he was overshadowed by KD.
  34. Jun 8, 2012

    204Red Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    2,019
    Location:
    Canada
    have to say this is spot on.

    I think that the 87-88 Liverpool team often gets over looked as being one of their best... I suppose this is largely due to post Hysel syndrome and the fact they never got to prove themselves in Europe (and yes, we all know whose fault that was... that's not really my point)

    Kenny laid out a fair amount of dosh on some of those players... Beardsley was a record signing at the time, Barnes (who I've heard many a scouser refer to as their best ever signing), Aldridge, Houghton were not cheap. Its one thing to claim that signing such obvious big money players took no skill... and its another so see how a manager moulds that team into champions. Many a manager has spend a lot and won nothing (see Chelsea prior to Jose, City prior to Mancini, and Kenny at Liverpool the 2nd time around).
  35. Jun 8, 2012

    Denis' cuff Full Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    5,951
    Location:
    here
    he still had Grobbelaar, Hansen, Nicol, McMahon, Whelan, Beardsley, himself and he brought in Barry Venison, Jimmy Carter, David Speedie. You're naturally more in touch with this than I am but there was still the impression that the blueprint was still in effect and KD had brought in some dross.......and was he resposible for recruiting those youngsters (Redknapp as a feather in the cap is questionable anyway) as well as educating them? Weren't Evans and Fagan still there? Not saying you're wrong about this but I think there's definitely some mileage in that the side was on auto-pilot yet inferior players were coming in, notwithstanding the occasional quality player. They just didn't seem as dominant as previous years before KD. That a good Everton side was competing actually obscures the fact there was plenty of quality in the side he took over. Interesting to hear both sides of this.
  36. Jun 8, 2012

    redman5 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,327
    Location:
    In a world of my own. People know me here.
    When Rush played alongside Dalglish his record was 139 goals in 224 matches. He left to join Juventus, & when he returned Kenny had pretty much packed in the playing side of things. His record up until 1996 was 90 goals in 245 appearances. Robbie Fowler made his debut in 1993 & scored 120 times in 236 games. He played in a much inferior side to that of Rushie during the Welshman's first spell at the club. Not only that, he never had a player of the calibre of Dalgish to set them up for him. I don't think anyone under-appreciates what Rush did for Liverpool, & it's a keenly contested debate amongst many fans as to who was the best. I just think that if it was possible to reverse the roles of each player, then I don't believe that Rush would have been as effective as Fowler. When you take Dalglish out of the equation (post 1988), their respective records back up my opinion.
  37. Jun 8, 2012

    Denis' cuff Full Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    5,951
    Location:
    here
    good points but I wonder if Fowler's broader range of play would've gelled with KD like Rush did as a pure striker? I suppose we'll never know.

    edit: Fowler was even uglier than Rush and seeing him sith the obligatory tash and perm doesn't bear thinking about. So Rushy wins eh?
  38. Jun 8, 2012

    redman5 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,327
    Location:
    In a world of my own. People know me here.
    :lol:

    The kind of faces only a Liverpool fan could love.
  39. Jun 8, 2012

    redman5 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,327
    Location:
    In a world of my own. People know me here.
    Back at the end of the 1984 season, if you wanted to weaken the Liverpool side by taking out 3 players, I'm pretty sure you, & most other people, would have removed Dalglish, Rush, & Souness. So whilst he might have had solid foundations to build upon, he also had to get it right in replacing those aforementioned players. So when you talk about a blueprint, then you have to say that Kenny followed the blueprint by bringing in the right players to do the right job. It's a bit one-sided just looking at his failures in the transfer market, because his record overall was a very successful one. Barry Venison did a solid job for us. As for David Speedie. Well, we'll never know how he might have progressed had Kenny stayed in the job. He only played 12 games, but scored 6 times. He never got a chance under Souness, as he was sold not long after he took over - A lot of people only remember that side for the great football that we played. But in the modern game there's a lot of talk about 'pressing the opposition'. What seems to have gone un-noticed is just how hard our players worked to get the ball back. Players like Beardsley, Houghton, & McMahon never gave the other side the time to build up the play. So when Graham Souness took over, he ripped up the blueprint, & sold those key players who were the basis & foundation of what Liverpool had achieved before him. He got it horribly wrong, both on, & off, the pitch.
  40. Jun 8, 2012

    Denis' cuff Full Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    5,951
    Location:
    here
    tbf, those last three players you mention were getting on a bit and Souness had to do some serious re-structuring. Probably flushed with success at his breaking the rules at Ibrox (Mojo) and the success he had there, he probably believed too much in his own genius but I really think the whole thing is too polarised: "Kenny good, Souey bad". For me, there seems to be little balance in the whole thing and as usual, it's all black & white. The emotion machine gets switched on and over-reaction to Souness became reasonable (after Hillsbro) and hysteria became normal. I always get the impression KD is a bit cunning, as he was on the pitch (nothing wrong with that) and Souness leads with his honesty, almost his dick. Maybe I just find KD a bit of a cnut and Souness honest, if nothing else and therefore I'm a bit biased to GS. Not that it should have to be a contest.

Share This Page