Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by The Azzurri, Apr 23, 2011.
I still don't get it, but the Angel indicates your joking
This season they'd be fighting it out with us and City (though they'd probably beat us both in the head to heads) but their poor away form in Spain, would suggest similar struggles to the ones they went through on a cold night in Pamplona. That's this season though, they'd have won at least two of the last three and maybe the lot.
Of course they'd come as a kit with Madrid and they'd be behind them. In fact I think everyone would be behind Madrid, deeper squad, more likely to scrape a win in a poor performance, and that bit more aggressive.
I think it's pointless to compare point tallies between different leagues.It's such a simplistic almost childish way of looking at things.I think they would win the PL without that many problems.The PL can get so overrated it's painful to read at times
Messi would probably injured, so will xavi / inniesta
If they can lose to Osasuna, they can lose to Liverpool.
Errr they have a good enough squad one that competed with Real's for past three seasons and won. Real whose squad is definitely one of the best in Europe in terms of depth. You also seem to have make a very strange assumption that you only need a strong squad to win premiership and not La Liga.
Let's compare shall we, to us in terms of your squad depth
United - Rooney, Hernandez, Welbeck, Berba, Owen
Barca- Messi, Villa, Pedro, Sanchez, Afellay , Cuenca
United- Nani, Young, Valencia, Carrick, Scholes, Anderson, Cleverly, Giggs, Park
Barca- Iniesta, Xavi, Cesc, Busquets, Mascherano, Thiago, Kieta
All in all, both teams use these two pools to play 6 positons.
Our numbers: 14, Theirs: 13
United: Rio, Vida, Jones, Smalling, Evans, Rafael, Evra, Fabio
Barca: Alves, Pique, Puyol, Abidal, Adriano, Fontas
Our numbers: 8, Theirs: 6
They seem a bit weak here and are but they also extensively use Mascherano or Busquests on CD at times. Not to mention the new system Pep has been trying this season.
Even more, they have an excellent B team they can pick players from if they need.
All this rubbish anyway since in 2006/7 we fend off a monstrous Chelsea squad to win the title with a paper thin squad.
It goes without saying.Liverpool has become Osasuna's equivalent
The squad depth question has been dealt with.
The second question is pure nonsense, no other way to put it.
Forget Liga, look at their scoring record in Europe. They are no Arsenal who try to walk the ball in our lack tooth in final third. Villa is one of the best finisher in the game, only reason why he does not score that much at Barca is due to Messi. I won't say anything about Messi. Sanchez would set the league on fire. As I said before, pace wise he is equal to Walcott but has footballing skills to boot, already has 11 goals this season. Fabregas has continued scoring there and already has a good scoring record in PL.
Here is what I don't get. They are clearly supposed to be the best side in Europe, arguably a contender for one of the best sides of all time but- hey! put them in English league and they would struggle.
Another idiotic variation of "can't hack it in on a monday night against Stoke in Jan".
Have people who think Barca would win it 'easily or 'walk' it actually seen the league table as it is today? Would the rest of the teams turn into Barcelona upon Barcelona competing in the premier league. I know they're better than us but for them to win it so easily would require them to probably reach a points total they have never or rarely ever do in their own league, which is a laughable suggestion.
I don't think they will win it easily. After all they have not won La liga easily recently as well, Real has pushed them all the way so will we and City and Chelsea if they were at their peak.
If you are going to use current point total as an example, does it mean Real will piss the PL?
This isn't about Barca/Real competing in the same league as Manchester United/Chelsea/City. It's about them competing in the Barclays Premier League. Whereas our levels wouldn't change much on one new team in the league, Real or Barca's most definitely would just as ours would on having to play in the very different La Liga. So no, Real would definitely not have the same amount of points as they do in La Liga and wouldn't piss it. They'd both challenge is what I'll go with. Although I'm not sure we would if we had to compete in La Liga.
Well they will play half the matches at home
Even if they have a bad away record to begin with, no reason they can't win, we won last year with an absolutely horrific league record.
You've missed my point crappy. I mean't that our season only differs with respect to two games. We play the same teams as we do any other year whereas those teams would have to play entirely different teams playing an entirely different brand of football to what they're consistently used to. Hence their season woud be very different and it's hard to pick up a points total that was achieved against a completely different set of teams and apply it here as well. We can apply our points totals with a lot more assurance given
And of course there's no reason they can't win most of those games. They are better than us. But a different league is hard to adjust to. If we competed in La Liga this year I don't think we'd be within 10 points of Real.
I don't think either will have to change their style much. Only issue they will have is trying to break down teams who are defending with 11 men in their half. But they have done that in Europe against better sides now. Barca suddenly won't stop being a possession side if they entered PL, nor would Real stop being a CA/fast transition from defence-attack team.
@Crappy, Do you think Iniesta would be getting 10 goals+ in the Premier League this season? Would Villa when he is on 5 in La Liga?
Barcelona in La Liga.
David Villa 5
Dani Alves 2
I. Cuenca 2
A. Iniesta 1
I remember watching them in the Super Cup. Porto played well, where a bit unlucky, and lost 2-0. Since then those games where teams where unlucky but lost slowed down, and actually become losses or draws for Barcelona.
Barcelona results after International weekends include a draw directly after the first international weekend, a draw after drawing with Milan in Europe, which was after the 2nd International weekend (2 weeks after), a draw after playing Viktoria Plzeň which was after the 3rd International weekend (2 weeks after). A loss flying to Milan, which was after the 4th International Weekend (2 weeks after).
I'm confusing myself here let me work it out.
Overall, in the 2 subsequent La Liga games after each International Break, Barcelona have won 3, drawn 2, lost 1. That comes from them not having a big enough squad to deal with it in my opinion. We've had injuries to basically our entire first 11, and carried on.
Barcelona's squad without their most played XI:
Uniteds without the most played XI:
That's not the point. I'm not suggesting they'd have to transform drastically. But I can't see how any team can perform just as well as it does in it's own league in a completely different ones. It makes no sense. They wouldn't be bedazzled at the rocket science like problem that is the premier league team but taken as a whole it's a different league. I don't see the argument against that, at all?
Do you really think we'd perform just as well as we have in England over the last two decades wiping the floor clean for most of it if we were suddenly thrust into the very different environment that is La Liga? New environments post new challenges. They would answer most of them as all champions do but noway would they out perform their La Liga selves. Whereas little would change for us.
It's worth pointing out that the Last time Barcelona went to Old Trafford or the Emirates they lost, and Tottenham beat AC Milan and Inter there last season, although they did lose 1-0 to Real.
I made a post not long ago about Premier League vs La Liga this season, but I cant find it now.
What game did they lose against AC milan?
Sorry that should read, after flying to Milan. It's difficult remembering where the International games where looking at Barca's fixtures so that was somewhat of a difficult paragraph to write.
Firstly here is our leading scorers for 2007/8 season and 2008/9 season when Ronaldo was firing on full cylinders-
Cristiano Ronaldo 18
10 Wayne Rooney 12
9 Dimitar Berbatov 9
- Carlos Tévez 5
16 Michael Carrick 4
15 Nemanja Vidic 4
24 Darren Fletcher 3
41 Federico Macheda2
Top 4 scorers combined: 44, Top 4 scorers combined: 13
Ronaldo - 31
Tevez - 14
Rooney - 12
Top 4 scorers combined: 62 , Difference between first and fourth: 26
For Barca with your stats*:
Top 4 scorers combined: 55 , Difference between first and fourth: 22
*Season is not finished yet
This was to point out
- What happening at Barca with Messi getting almost goal is nothing new and happens one players become so much the focal point of the attack. Happened with us when Ron was here.
- All in all their top 4 or so are scoring more or same as we did at our pomp
- Villa has had an injury filled season, last season he had 18 goals
- Iniesta has never been about goals or even assists though he does seem to score in big matches.
- I actually do not know your point about posting those stats..
All the stats what and which game they won or lost after what is irrelveant when they have pretty much won every competition they have played in last few years.
What you have not answered is
- If you think if our squad is much better than theirs. If yes, please list the players of our in squad who are much better than theirs.
- How come we won the league in recent past with a thin squad as I pointed out in 2006/7.
- Why do you need a stronger squad to win Prem but not La liga?
I am not sure how that works when La Liga top teams do keep beating top PL beats overall over two legs.
Plus when was the last time we won at Stamford Bridge? Does that automatically means we will struggle to beat them every time there?
The Arsenal win over Barca was a farce anyway, they were battered in first half and should have been 4 down.
And when they traveled to Old Trafford they weren't even close to the side they're today, they finished 3rd in La Liga that season.
Yeah, their manager was different then, Messi was injured and not the player he is today, No Pique, No Alves or Mascherano or Busquests etc
They would win it, I think there would be more competition but they would win it. This idea that they'll don't cope with the kicks or the physicality is stupid. It's not stopped the likes of silva or mata excelling. Fabregas was a star in the league as was/is scholes. Surely we're moved beyond the whole physicality thing?
The other thing is that because we see how they play act over there and that teams play more technical football, people assume that they can't take a challenge which is wrong. The most technical players always get the roughest treatment. We've all been at school and if you've played football you know how the better players always have to put up with some kicks. They are strong players, don't let the theatrics fool you. That's a result of refs getting sucked in to decisions and poor sportsman ship, which tbf is big in England too. Bit don't mistake it for weakness. Look at ronaldo and nani both came as slight players who went down at any challenge and became very strong. It's about mentality more than anything. And tbh the way our game is going its heading towards non contact anyway.
There's no reason they wouldn't excel. They're basically a much better version of arsenal who manage to get top 4 most seasons if not better.
I think it's fair to say that we have a stronger bench/squad/depth than Barcelona, yet their first team is much better than ours.
We crawled over the finish line in 06/07, with our squad decimated by injury. It could be argued that playing so many games early on in the season took it's toll near the end, although we had got the required amount of points to beat off Chelsea.
The Premier league is more demanding. Faster paced, no winter break, more aggressive = more injuries.
I've made this point before, but no Spanish team apart from Barcelona and Real have done anything of note in the knockout stages since 2006, when Villareal made the semi finals. Real were a joke in Europe, getting knocked out in the last 16 every season, until last season. Only Barcelona have been consistent.
If you're gonna play the game of denigrating wins, then Chelsea should have progressed against them in 2008/2009.
IMO you are breaking down the stats unnecessarily. Taking a holistic view, a quick check shows they have only lost 5 league games over the last 3 years, and 3 Champions league games, and 3 Copa games.So that is just 11 games in about 180 games of competitive football over the last 3 years in all competitions.
I can't be bothered to do the stats but i'm willing to bet the next best teams (Madrid, United et al)-those with traditionally bigger squads-have lost more games than that in the same time period. It's not as much an issue as you claim.
And which different English sides have done so well in Europe?
Arsenal reached one semi and their last final was in 2005/6
Liverpool did well-ish but we all know they used to over perform in Europe.
Besides the talk is not about La Liga anyway but just about Barca performing in PL.
Bar defense, I don't see how our depth is stronger than ours. I listed it pretty much in an earlier post.
The point about about 2006/7 season was to show that it is not given that with a weak squad you can not win, plus they don't have a weak squad anyway
Also when was the last time, when a team won the premiership when they did not have the best first 11 but a better squad than the rest? Can you point out an year when you can say that team lost a league due to poor squad even when it had the best first 11?
Ah, I misintepreted your point.
I went back and looked at that post. The only place they kill us as far as squad depth go is midfield. Attack, they have Sanchez, Afellay , Cuenca as backups. I don't rate them as players who can come in and do a job with the big boys out or rested. We blow them out the water on defense.
I think we had a better team than Chelsea in 2009/2010, but they had better depth. Look what happened to us when Rooney got injured against Bayern.
I'm not trying to argue that the Premier League is better than La Liga, I've been arguing the opposite elsewhere, I'm arguing that Barcelona wouldn't win the Premier League
You have not really argued that well about that
I am also not arguing that Barca will win the league. They will be competing for it jusy like us and City and by the second season would be favourites to win it
That's the thing, you can't separate their midfield and attack. They operate as one unit, more so than any other team. They play with a 4-6-0 formation really.
Xavi and fabregas have 27 goals between them this season i believe, and those are 2 midfielders. Despite villa injured and pedro woefully out of form-their main source of goals other than messi- they have still outscored every other team in the PL with 75 goals to city's 68, and with 2 less games played.
They have also outscored every other team in the CL without two of those players. They have absolutely no issue with squad depth in attack from those figures.
I don't think anyone knows what we're arguing about
They don't need that many attacking players. You are wrong about Sanchez anyway. He is top top class. And Barca fans would say Cucena is as good a prospect as Welbeck
Iniesta and Fabregas play in their top 3 plenty of times. Since we play different formations, the way to do this is to compare front 6
Their front 6: Messi, Sanchez, Villa, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquests
Back-up: Fabregas, Pedro, Kieta, Mascherano, Thiago, Afelay, Cucena
Our front 6: Rooney, Welbeck, Nani, Valencia, Scholes Carrick
Back-up: Hernandez, Giggs, Berbatov, Anderson, Cleverly, Owen, Park
Their first choice front 6 is better than ours just on the account of Messi, Iniesta and Xavi, who would be in top 5 players
Back up wise, more even but still edge to them since Anderson has not had any kind of form and Cleverly to could not build up on his season
Don't think there's any doubt that they'd be able to win the Premier League if they were in it with relative ease. Those who dispute it are still living in the old ages where it was thought that small technical players couldn't hack it in the Premier League: a theory which has since been proven wrong.
It could be said that some teams like Stoke would try to rough them up, and suffocate their space on the ball, but I think they'd deal with that and almost take it in their stride to an extent. We've seen them do it many times against a top class Real Madrid side, so why wouldn't they be able to do it against a far inferior side to them?
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