Impossible Draft QF - Enigma vs Pat

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by Edgar Allan Pillow, Jul 11, 2018.

?

Who will win the draft match?

Poll closed Jul 12, 2018.
  1. Team Enigma

    65.2%
  2. Team Pat Mustard

    34.8%
  1. Jul 11, 2018
    #1

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    [​IMG] VS [​IMG]

    .............................................. TEAM ENIGMA ................................................................................ TEAM PAT .............................


    TEAM ENIGMA

    Formation: 4-2-3-1
    Defensive line: normal
    Style: direct, fast tempo. Team build around Zico as main playmaker, solid powerful midfield, watertight defence and top notch attacking unit.

    Team card:

    70's - PAVEL NEDVED (CZECH REPUBLIC)
    60's - GABRIEL BATISTUTA (ARGENTINA) + COPA, ANTONIO BENARRIVO (ITALY)
    50's - ZICO (BRAZIL), KARL-HEINZ RUMMENIGGE (GERMANY) + CL
    40's
    - PAT JENNINGS (NORTHERN IRELAND), ALBERT SHESTERNYOV (RUSSIA)
    30's - DAVE MACKAY (SCOTLAND), IGOR NETTO (RUSSIA)
    20's - DJALMA SANTOS (BRAZIL) + WC, JOSE SANTAMARIA (URUGUAY) + CL
    10's
    - OBDULIO VARELA (URUGUAY) + WC

    Team Profiles:

    GK: Pat Jennings - the Irishman was undisputed number one for Spurs and Arsenal in the 1970's and 1980's. He was the first goalkeeper to save with his feet consistently, his clearances got a good length and his goal kicks had a great distance. During his time he was one of the best in one-on-one situations which invariably saved Arsenal and Spurs a lot of the time. Incredibly agile, he just flung out of the goal mouth and pretty much caught anything.

    LB: Antonio Benarrivo - was considered to be one of the best attacking full backs during the 1990s in his time with Parma. Comfortable on both flanks, and was known for his attacking prowess, but also one of the most versatile and solid defenders of his time. Despite the plethora of quality of Italian full backs in the 90's he played a vital role on the left flank(playing in all but the opening game) in Italy's 94 WC run where they ended up runner-ups.

    RB: Djalma Santos - While primarily known for his defensive skills, he often ventured upfield and displayed some impressive attacking skills, excellent crossing ability and distribution of the ball whilst also a dead-ball specialist.He was never sent-off during his career. Djalma went to the midfield to distribute the ball in great way was one of the first overlapping full backs along with Nilton on the other flank. It was very hard find Djalma misplaced at any position, his skills in one on one situations, anticipation, vision, passing(both long and short), reading of the game were superb. No wonder he's considered by many the best right back of all time.

    CB: José Santamaría - the Uruguayan was a physically strong and complete defender who rarely allowed opposing players to get past—something that was truly remarkable given that Madrid often played with a 3-2-5 formation throughout the 1950s. Madrid's golden era was known for their attack, but it was their defense that made it possible—led on many occasions by the inspirational wall known as Santamaria. Santamaria was neither as cynical nor as roughhouse as some of his great Nacional or Penarol contemporaries but his strength, stamina, indispensable talent for interceptions in a team generally set up with only three defenders and his heading ability made him the best defender around in the Fifties.

    CB: Albert Shesternyov - One of the greatest outfield Russian footballer of all-time, Shesternyov's career lasted just 13 years, but spanned the entire 1960's, which he spent exclusively with CSKA Moscow. He won nominated for the Ballon d'Or four times. He was phenomenal athlete and 100 metres for around 11 seconds in his youth, was champion not just area, but also of Moscow and Moscow region, showing excellent results in the 200 metres long and triple jump. His outstanding features included also a great jump and heading ability and fantastic defensive skills.

    DM: Obdulio Varela - inspirational World Cup winning captain, he's probably the best DM in the pool with the absence of Desailly and Rijkaard. He was the archetype of the rioplatense No. 5, or deep-lying midfielder; able to handle himself physically, superb at shielding his defence and linking play to the midfield, Varela also had a ferocious shot from outside the penalty area, which England learned in Switzerland during the 1954 World Cup. In the quarterfinals, with the score at 1-1 and six minutes before half-time, Varela hit a fine drive from outside the box that England goalkeeper Gil Merrick couldn't reach - it was one of any number of long-rangers he scored during his career.

    Great article on him for those interested - http://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-impossible-draft.439309/page-35#post-22784539

    CM(box to box): Igor Netto - one of the elite midfielders of the 50's and 60's. A dynamic box to box midfielder, who liked the left side, but was versatile enough to move all across the pitch with his outstanding passing in dribbling ability and one of the most gifted Soviet players of all time.

    AMC(Playmaker): Zico - To me the best player in the draft and on the park. He’s the greatest Brazilian to never win a World Cup. Pele once said: “The one player that came closest to me in playing style was Zico.” He had it all - vision, passing, one of the best dribblers and close control, whilst having the goalscoring ability of any forward in history - scoring more than 500 goals for club and country, not playing as a striker.

    AML/LW: Pavel Nedvěd - One of the best midfielders in the last 30 years and one of the best ever to wear the black and white stripes of Juve. You always know what you get with him; goals, assists, great play-making, and hardwork. All while playing with high energy and infectious passion. He was very good defensively as well. A truly complete player and a Ballon D'or winner to boot.

    RWF: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge - a quote from El Mundo Deportivo back in 82 describes him best - "It hasn’t been a coincidence that he’s been voted two consecutive seasons in a row as the best European player. He has been the undisputable best player in Europe and for his country. The WC won’t be a deciding factor to his reputation, because he is already an accomplished player at the age of 26, and regarded as one of the major stars in the world. Success at the WC will just confirm for Germany that they have one of the greatest players in their history."

    CF: Gabriel Batistuta - One of the best and complete #9's in history. He was an agile, evasive and inventive forward. He’d drop deep, link play, run in behind. Bully, harass, out-smart. There is a reason Diego Maradona once said he was the best centre forward of all time. He passed it into the net, powered headers, dinked, chipped and clipped it past hapless custodians. And of course, from time to time, he simply smashed it.

    Great article on him for those interested - http://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-impossible-draft.439309/page-29#post-22723285

    Defence: Every great attacking team needs a solid foundation at the back and we have that with 2 of the greatest CB's of all time and certainly in their respective era's - Shesternyov and Santamaria. Both are defensive walls equally adapt to handle the danger in the air and on the deck. Then we have the most complete full back in Djalma Santos on the right and Benarrivo on the left.

    Midfield: Our midfield unit is constructed of solid defensively so that it can shield the back four, but also move the ball to Zico and Nedved, which would be Netto's role and win the ball back quickly to start prompt counter attacks. Netto and Varela are great in the defensive phase, which will allow Zico to run the game, whilst Nedved's presence would add up to the midfield battle and give us another body in midfield.

    Varela vs Rivera would be a great battle and the former is someone who stacks up pretty well to Rivera. A midfield of Netto, Varela and with the help of Nedved and Zico would cut the supply to Pat's forward line and limit the opportunities they will get in front of goal.

    Attack: A team that is definitely build around a fantastic attack, this is our focal point. Nedved, Kalle, Zico and Batistuta is an attacking unit that has it all and one of the best in their positions individually. Our attack has it all - the grit and determination of Nedved, Kalle and Batistuta, complimented by the incredible vision, pure flair and Dribbling ability of Zico. Zico, Batistuta and Kalle are phenomenal goalscorers and we have a lot of different routes for goal. Kalle would excel alongside physical and complete forward in Batistuta, to play off him and come from the right, whilst also Batigol creates space for him and Zico to make late runs in the box. Nedved with his endless stamina will buzz around the pitch add to the midfield battle as well as provide our forward line with creativity.

    Advantages:

    Our team is well set up to counter Pat's main strengths. We have a top CB pairing who are both excellent in the positional, pure tackling and athletic department with Santamaria stacking pretty well to Romario and Shesternyov to Leonidas. Varela would also limit the effect of Rivera, thus cutting off the supply to the forwards and the creativity in Pat's side.

    Facchetti will have to use the left flank on his own, but that would mean he'd leave space for Kalle to exploit whilst on the other end he'll be met by none other than Djalma Santos. When Facchetti is not bombing forward, Djalma would tuck in and help the defence coping with Romario on the side.

    On the other end we feel we have an advantage with Nedved challenging Bessonov (who also will have to provide width in attack) and Bozsik as DLP not the greatest fit against explosive Zico.

    Worth mentioning as well is Kalle's and Batigol teamwork and pressing ability forward, which will be our first line of defence.

    TEAM PAT

    So says the greatest mind in football today, and if it's good enough for this man it's good enough for me:

    [​IMG]

    Formation/Tactical Synopsis: Possession-orientated 4-4-2 Diamond

    Defence:

    Three time IFFHS World Goalkeeper of the Year Jose Luis Chilavert takes his place in goal. Ahead of him Willi Schulz, rated world class on 6 occasions by Kicker Magazine in their bi-annual rankings, partners Diego Godin, who conveniently for me continues to elevate his reputation by the match during the current World Cup. Our attacking build up will generally be funneled through our two all-time great playmakers towards the scintillating Brazilian pairing up front, but outlets in the wide areas are still essential and to that end I’ve drafted two athletic attacking full backs in Bessonov and the legendary Facchetti. With Bonhof in particular also providing supplementary width, I feel I've addressed the most obvious potential weakness of the diamond quite well.

    Midfield:

    With arguably the greatest deep-lying playmaker of all time in Bozsik at the base of the diamond, and the elegant, lavishly gifted classic playmaker Gianni Rivera at its tip, we’re aiming to establish a meaningful edge in possession and midfield control. With two playmakers at either end of the diamond, it was essential to flank them with mobile, powerful ball winners. As a box to box midfielder who also played in both full back positions, Bonhof’s suitability for the role should, I hope, be clear. As ever when attempting to situate an older player in a modern formation, Edwards as the LCM may attract some more scrutiny. I’ll elaborate more in the match thread, but my own stance is that his old left half back role translates well to this LCM engagement, and his own attributes translate even more effectively: Colossal strength and stamina, formidable ball-winning prowess and a redoubtable, team-orientated mentality.

    Attack:

    Romario is quite possibly the best centre forward in the draft, and with the likes of Luis Ronaldo and Eusebio on the blocked list he’s a stylistic rarity, with most of the other standouts tending towards the target man category and few possessing Romario’s quicksilver, jinking genius with the ball at his feet. His partner Leonidas, the best player and top scorer at the 1938 World Cup, seems to have been cut from a similar stylistic cloth. Comfortable at inside forward as well as centre forward, he was famously agile and inventive, as well as being utterly prolific.

    Restrictions

    10s: Leonidas (BRAZIL) Benbarek (MOROCCO)

    20s: Bozsik (HUNGARY) CARRIZO (ARGENTINA)

    30s: Edwards (ENGLAND) Schulz (GERMANY)

    40s: Rivera (ITALY) Facchetti (ITALY)

    50s: Bessonov (UKRAINE) Bonhof (GERMANY)

    60s: Romario (BRAZIL) Chilavert (PARAGUAY)

    70s: AYALA (ARGENTINA)

    80s: Godin (URUGUAY)


    6 x EUROPE

    6 x SOUTH AMERICA

    1 x AFRICA

    1 x ASIA


    CL: Rivera, Facchetti

    WC: Romario, Bonhof

    CA: Romario, Godin
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  2. Jul 11, 2018
    #2

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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  3. Jul 11, 2018
    #3

    Enigma_87 You know who

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  4. Jul 11, 2018
    #4

    harms Way Staff

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    Both teams are close to ideal, it'll take me some time to make a decision here.
  5. Jul 11, 2018
    #5

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    No changes for Bad_Custard?
  6. Jul 11, 2018
    #6

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    I see that Pat decided to stick with the team from last round. Perhaps Ayala would have been a bit better than Schulz to combat Batistuta and also Nedved if he beats Bessonov.

    On our team I think the biggest upgrade is Varela coming on for Pluskal. Whilst Pluskal was excellent DM and destroyer, Varela is just another level and with a good claim to be the best DM in the pool given the blocks and Desailly not making the cut.

    Varela would be a nuisance for Rivera and really a good fit to frustrate him and cutting the service in the attacking third from Pat - the final pass which Romario and Leonidas would strive for.

    On the other hand Netto also brings his ball skills and ability to drive forward to the fore, whilst being a seemless fit alongside Zico, Nedved and the likes.

    Pat's midfield of course is top notch, but Bozsik is far from ideal fit to Zico and he would stamp his authority on the game with his movement and dribbling skills, whilst of course being a major goalscoring threat in the attacking third.
  7. Jul 11, 2018
    #7

    harms Way Staff

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    I thought that there were none, but then convinced myself that he'd picked Facchetti... turns out he didn't.
    Interesting.
  8. Jul 11, 2018
    #8

    harms Way Staff

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    Just thought that I'd share this. Hopefully at some point I'll finally make a good Netto's profile. Here he's playing against the current World Champions — the USSR will win the game 3:2

  9. Jul 11, 2018
    #9

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Great work mate! Yeah that's what I've meant but a video is worth thousand words. :D

    Getting closer to the greatest outfield Russian player with Netto? :D
  10. Jul 11, 2018
    #10

    harms Way Staff

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    Yeah, he's definitely in the mix
  11. Jul 11, 2018
    #11

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
  12. Jul 11, 2018
    #12

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
  13. Jul 11, 2018
    #13

    idmanager Full Member

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    Enigma has almost made it a perfect squad. If I am nitpicking, the only problem is Djalma Varela and a forward in Rummenigge on that side looks disjointed.

    Pat probably would have won against most other QF opponents but can’t look beyond Enigma for this after those reinforcements in a already stacked team.
  14. Jul 11, 2018
    #14

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Cheers mate.

    On Djalma and Kalle - Kalle up to 1978 WC played for Germany in the exact same position with Vogts as a RB most of the time and playing off both Mullers - not so much different to having Djalma behind him.

    On Djalma himself I've tried to present him in the best way last round, but to compliment to that - he was very important player for Brazil and his club in the build up from the back and also driving the ball forward. Something he will perfectly fine do here as well.

    But what Djalma also brings to the table is his great defensive acumen which would also help against certain Romario in this game.

    Also to reiterate to our attack - that front four is pretty mobile - Nedved and Kalle can swap wings, also Zico can move to the right channel to look for space, whilst Kalle cuts in. Against a diamond especially Kalle is very good fit to cut in behind Facchetti - a goalscoring wing forward can do good damage there.
  15. Jul 11, 2018
    #15

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    Added in.
  16. Jul 11, 2018
    #16

    idmanager Full Member

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    I don't mind a defensive FB at all with any sort of winger or forward, but when the most defensive minded midfielder of the team also is on that side, it does make for a left heavy attack build up wise with Kalle not able to get in the game as much as possible.
    Things that go missing in draft discussions sometimes. Even my team has the same problem with Andrade/Monti and Matthews on the right.

    I will probably have to watch some full matches of Brazil 62/66 to see how much Djalma joined in the build up as after my bubble burst about Faachetti's game, I am not sure how much to trust anecdotes about full backs.

    But then again, when you have the absolute GOAT in Garrincha ahead of you, maybe you do get a chance to be a little more involved. As most people pointed last game, I have always known him to be a defensive FB with very little to do with attack or build up.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  17. Jul 11, 2018
    #17

    harms Way Staff

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    With Garrincha it's the opposite. You don't get to participate in attack because he does everything by himself
  18. Jul 11, 2018
    #18

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Yeah, that's why I really picked him and get to delve into that topic.

    We also have to note that from that time it wasn't that common to have constant overlapping full backs at the time. Both Nilton and Djalma were the first to do so.

    I think you also pointed out in one of the games(or was it Sjor) that Facchetti himself didn't get that much forward in some of the 70 WC games due to having to deal with opposition wingers.

    Against a diamond tho I don't think it would be a huge issue either way, as we have plenty of players to provide width up top whilst Facchetti himself and Bessonov would be the main ones to provide for Pat, whilst also having Kalle and Nedved to think about.
  19. Jul 11, 2018
    #19

    idmanager Full Member

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    Well, another way to look at it is the opposition players on that side would be busy dealing with Garrincha that Djalma most times would have no one to deal with on that side giving him a chance to contribute.

    Agreed, wasn't a point on the game but your team in general considering it might not be possible to significantly upgrade it anymore if you win.
    Think the actual problem is players like Netto/Davids. Kind of fixes your DM to the right leaving a wide gap with not to much to contribute from.
  20. Jul 11, 2018
    #20

    harms Way Staff

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    In theory, with every other player. But not with Garrincha :)
    You'll see for yourself
  21. Jul 11, 2018
    #21

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Yeah I can understand where you are coming from mate. Although at the start that was my idea with Djalma - the ability to tuck in midfield from the right and shore up if a DM like Varela is occupied with the opposition #10, or to bring the ball forward with players like both Zico and Kalle capable of stretching the play from the right.

    Our game plan isn’t really crossing the ball from the right rather than moving the hall forward and breaking up the opposition with through balls and movements of the attackers from that side.
  22. Jul 11, 2018
    #22

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Some highlights on Batistuta. He was indeed an insane striker of his time, when the Serie A was packed with elite defenders. :drool:

    His national team record was phenomenal as well and twice Copa goalscorer in 91 and 95.

  23. Jul 11, 2018
    #23

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    and example of the fluidity of the front 4 with Kalle nominally starting from the right but running through half of the pitch and finishing in the bottom right corner.

  24. Jul 11, 2018
    #24

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Nope. I had very limited options for upgrading the diamond formation so ended up changing nothing. I could have switched it up to a 4-3-3, and I'm somewhat regretting not doing that. I'll post it up near the end of this match to see what people think.
  25. Jul 11, 2018
    #25

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    I did consider bringing in Ayala just for the sake of freshening things up, but he doesn't really bring much to the table that Schulz doesn't, and Schulz's credentials as a top-notch defensive organiser swung it for me. The leadership and intelligence of that Schulz/Godin combo is eatly what is required against the movement your front four offers, and against Batistuta specifically I don't see them getting overwhelmed by his pysicality at all. In fact, I'd probably rate Godin higher up the pantheon at CB than Bati at CF now.

    Zico will give Bozsik no end of problems if he isolates him, but that's unlikely to be a regular occurance with two top-notch ball winners in Edwards and Bonhof flanking Bozsik.
  26. Jul 11, 2018
    #26

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Enigma's team was near final-ready after the initial drafting, so there's not much to criticise, but I don't think we're necessarily over-matched here. Some points in our favour:

    Bozsik: While Rivera is well-marshaled by Varela, one of the advantages of the diamond is that we can field a second playmaker. Bozsik is arguably the best ever in his role, and Zico won't offer much resistance when Bozsik initially picks up the ball. Bozsik can not only help us establish our rhythm and hopefully establish a degree of control over the match, but he can find our front pairing directly with his pinpoint passing.

    Romario/Leonidas: In my last match vs Brwned they came up against possibly the worst possible stylistic opponent in Bobby Moore. Moreover, Brwned fielded a three man central defence, which comes into it's own against a striker pairing. Here, there's no spare centre back to deal with my nimble, prolific pair of strikers, and without that additional layer of resistance I'd back Romario to be too hot to handle for pretty much any defence in the draft.

    Batistuta as a lone frontman: Batigol is a personal favourite but he's probably the only player in Enigma's team whose tactical role I don't like. I'll quote Anto who phrases it succinctly:

    Godin and Schulz measure up well to him in any case in terms of both quality and style, but I don't see Batistuta being at his best in this role.
  27. Jul 11, 2018
    #27

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Pretty hard topic that Godin/Bati in terms of stature of the game, as you also know that Godin is one of my favorite defenders mate. :D

    I'd probably rank him below the Figueroa/Santamaria tier, with of course Figueroa the outstanding defender of the SA ones.

    When it comes to Batistuta I'd also put him in the tier below the absolute best. Batistuta has proven himself both on international and club level. Just to put it in perspective - the only player to score 2 hattricks in two different WC's. Top goalscorer of 2 Copa's, 207 goals in 300 odd games for a team that was never in contention for the title - Fiorentina and won the Serie A with Roma, scoring 20 goals.

    He was clutch, he was clinical and also worked his socks off for the team. All that in the era where Seria A was packed with talent all over the park and especially in defence.
  28. Jul 12, 2018
    #28

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    To address those as well.

    Bozsik vs Zico - Zico would have his shot over there mainly due to the diamond and the attacking full backs that create the width for you. Both Edwards and Bonhof would have to cover wide, especially with Rivera being a classic #10 and never really putting a foot in defensively. He was Italy's golden boy and Zico was much more of a team player than him. Besides both Batigol and Kalle would offer our first line of defence and most likely press Bozsik in that zone.

    Add to that Nedved and his work rate and both Bonhof and Edwards would have a lot of defensive duties, especially on the backfoot and we have a lot of players capable of switching momentum and pick up a pass.

    Romario/ Leonidas - I can understand that rationale, but here Djalma comes to the fore. Djalma Santos is perfectly capable of tucking in and shoring the defence as well as that inside right channel. Facchetti would obviously be in the picture but overlapping most of the time would leave a lot of space for Kalle to exploit. We would most likely have 4 players at the back - one full back, depending on where the ball is, our CB pairing and Varela shielding the defence. In any case we'd have a spare man to cover the Rivera/Romario/Leonidas trio.

    As for Batistuta - I don't think that's particularly accurate and a bit out of context. First of all he became Copa leading top scorer in 91' scoring 6 goals with a more of a winger partner in Caniggia. Then he would often be paired with another forward but that's due to most of the teams at the time playing 4-4-2 or 5-3-2. He hasn't really played that many games as a sole forward due to the tactics employed at the time, but that's hardly his fault. And finally he has a partner in Kalle who will cut in and attack the space. Kalle and Batistuta in terms of pairing is really a non brainer especially when you consider having Zico behind them to pick a pass and exploit the spaces.

    Furthermore Batistuta is known to form a great pairings with a top notch playmakers like Totti and Rui Costa. Teamed with Zico here, it's hard to find a better partner really and even an upgrade to what he had.

    Some highlights on the last part:



    It also underlines how often was Batistuta alone between the two center backs and how good his synergy with Totti was(despite being their first season playing together). He scored 20 that year and pushed Roma to the title.



    ^^ At Fio with Rui Costa. Most often than not again it's Batistuta positioned between the two CB's and a target man, who with his movement creates space for Rui Costa to drive forward or looks for space in the box to finish off a move.

    It's a bit surprising really that part on Batigol, since he'd absolutely thrive in this setup - a perfect foil in Kalle in free role, whilst also Kalle having a physical CF with a great movement to play off. A fantastic playmaker in Zico and Nedved who can deliver the perfect cross out wide.
  29. Jul 12, 2018
    #29

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    The only real criticism of Batistuta IMO as that his goals sometimes dried up against top opposition, possibly more so than the norm for top strikers. See his phenomenal record in the World Cup group stages vs only one goal from open play in the knockout stages and some underwhelming performances, or his 12 goals in 42 matches across the CL/UEFA Cup/European Cup Winners Cup. I discovered to my cost in the Serie A Draft that he had a pretty underwhelming record against some leading defenders like Baresi and Vierchowod. Baresi is understandable given how much better Milan were than Fiorentina, but the Vierchowod record was harder to explain away.

    He was brilliant and I'm obviously painting him in a far harsher light than I would as a neutral, but as so many of us grew up idolising him he's probably getting a bit more credit here than he deserves vs Godin and I've got to try to redress that to make this in any way competitive.
  30. Jul 12, 2018
    #30

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Disagree again mate and that's pretty harsh on Batistuta.

    Batistuta record at international stage:

    [​IMG]

    For example Messi's record at international stage:

    [​IMG]

    and he has played like 50 games more than him, and whilst of course not being a striker, he was often used as false 9, even at this WC.

    How many goals have Cristiano and Messi scored at WC KO stages?

    Batistuta has scored 2 in just 3 games in KO stages, far from bad record considering some of the GOAT's records there.

    Not to mention the state of Argentina's NT at the time. They didn't invite one of their(if not the) best players in Redondo because he had a long hair. Even Batistuta was under fire by the manager due to having a long hair. The team itself was managed pretty badly and there were conflicts left right and center. Not to mention in 94 and what happened with Maradona and his drug issues right in the middle of the group stages.

    Fiorentina were really shite side when he came to Italy. They were relegated in 93' so naturally his record against Baresi wouldn't be the best, besides, just look at the side they had in 92/93 when they were up against Milan:

    Goalkeeper Gianmatteo Mareggini
    Defenders Daniele Carnasciali, Mario Faccenda, Gianluca Luppi, Stefano Pioli
    Midfielders Stefan Effenberg, Giuseppe Iachini
    Forwards Francesco Baiano, Gabriel Batistuta, Brian Laudrup, Massimo Orlando

    Apart from Effenberg and Brian Laudrup(who also had a brief unsuccessful stint) even some of the Serie A die-hard fans would have trouble remembering those names.

    Milan put 9 goals past them in 2 games in that season, so naturally it would be tough to compare Batistuta goalscoring record considering the service he was getting at the time.

    There was also one season where he spend at Serie B, and after 95 Baresi was retired and Vierchowod was nearly done as well.

    In 98/99 Milan were 1st in the rankings and Batistuta put 3 past Maldini/Costacurta led line.

    Next year he scored the equalizer against again Maldini/Costacurta led defensive line.

    His record in Italy isn't all that bad:

    [​IMG]

    Considering Fiorentina were stuffed on regular basis up until the 95/96 season when they became a lot more consistent.

    His record against top sides is not worse than Roberto Baggio's (4 goals in 23 matches against Juve and 7 in 29 against Milan) or even Van Basten's record for example against Juve where he has scored 3 times(1 penalty) out of 11 meetings.

    In Europe he scored twice against United, once against Arsenal, Barca and Ajax in handful of meetings and most of those goals were really fantastic.

    In relation to how vital he was for Fiorentina and his goals:
    [​IMG]
    He was the leading scorer of the club in every season he was there, and usually scored 50-60 % of all Fio goals during the season.

    At Roma he found the net 5 times in the run in (last 7,8 games) showing how clutch he was when it really mattered and not only in the underdog position.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  31. Jul 12, 2018
    #31

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    He was surprisingly willing to drop deep and support the defensive effort for a player of that ilk, moreso than Zico. He was far from a powerhouse defensively, but he was willing to drop deep and defend, even making some timely interceptions near his own penalty area in this match:



    Fair point on Djalma, and there's no discounting the protection Varela offers in front of the defence, but Djalma tucking in will leave space for others to exploit (Edwards inside left channel on occasion and Facchetti on the outside). Kalle is a menace on the counter but there's no way I'd instruct a player with Facchetti's formidable attributes to hang back if there's space ahead of him to gallop into, especially not with Edwards there to cover on that side.

    It's a fair point that more teams played two striker systems in Batigol's pomp but equally I think his playing style suited being part of a pairing up front. He loved having a partner to play off and he loved roaming and dropping deep, both of which are hindered a bit by playing the lone striker role in a 4-2-3-1. He was suffering badly with injuries at this point and rapidly exiting his prime, but the 2002 WC was an example of him looking uncomfortable in that role, and most felt Crespo was better-suited to it and should have started ahead of him. I get that you can mitigate the problem by having Rummenigge playing closer to him, but then you're sacrificing width on that side which plays into the strengths of my diamond formation.
  32. Jul 12, 2018
    #32

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    On Rivera - even from the video you can see him not bothering to track back when losing the ball couple of times. He naturally dropped deep, but this is to start counters, exactly in the same way Zico dropped deep on many occasions. Rivera was never known for being a grafter, far from it. Out of the two Zico is the more dynamic one and the one who usually covered more distance at least from my viewing.

    Facchetti wasn't a Marcelo either if we have in mind the era he played in. When he faced Jairzinho(another cutting in wing forward) he didn't really put his authority in the attacking third in 70's WC, nor he constantly bombed forward. Same for Edwards on that side, especially considering he'd be used for defensive cover not to isolate Zico on Bozsik, which I think was the plan.

    Batigol in 02 was already done. He was struggling with injuries and later on when he called it a day he said himself he couldn't go much longer and even asked the doctor to amputate his legs due to the pain. His swansong was 01' and after that his goalscoring record plummeted. In 01/02 it was the first season in 11 years when he failed to hit double digits in all competitions and in 03 he was already retired.

    Stylistically you'd struggle to find a striker/forward who didn't like to play with a partner at that time. There just weren't lone strikers or 4-2-3-1 formations. Kalle is not stuck to a position either, as he's in a free role and he's one of the most mobile forwards in history, usually covering great distance. One of his best qualities is his movement and ability to exploit space - either wide or in the center. No doubt he'll do that if he's left with grass to eat up when Facchetti gallops forward.
  33. Jul 12, 2018
    #33

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Off to bed then, and with the time zones in mind hope we can catch up tomorrow and continue with the discussion.

    Good luck @Pat_Mustard !
  34. Jul 12, 2018
    #34

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    I feel a bit dirty after the Batigol criticism.

    To clarify, I'd stand by my opinion that 4-2-3-1 isn't the best system for him. Not a catastrophic misuse of him or anything, just not where I'd deploy him if I was building a team around him. 3-5-2 is probably where it's at in that situation, giving him both a strike partner and a No 10 behind him, and the same setup where he was at his zenith for both Fiorentina and Roma iirc. On his overall record, I did hopefully make it clear that I was painting him in a harsh light to try to claw myself back into the game as it was surprisingly close early on. His record in the UEFA competitions was surprisingly lacklustre, but his overall international record is great despite tailing off in the WC KO stages, and there's not much arguing with his incredible track record, often for poor teams, in the strongest league ever.

    To cleanse my soul, some Batigol mastery against top opposition:

    Against the Utd of Stam/Irwin/Keane:



    Same opposition, different season:



    Destroying the Milan of Baresi, Maldini and Desailly:



    Against Brazil in the 1991 Copa America:



    Ahh, that feels better!
  35. Jul 12, 2018
    #35

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Congrats @Enigma_87 !

    I thought my team stacked up fairly well to yours but I fully expected to lose after not reinforcing at all. I felt I had a decent chance against most teams except yourself and idmanager, so I was banking on a kind draw and the right players to become available in the next reinforcement round. In retrospect I probably should have just changed the formation and tried the 4-3-3 I had in mind. Quite porous defensively but it would have packed plenty of punch in attack:

    [​IMG]
  36. Jul 12, 2018
    #36

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    @Pat_Mustard good game mate and not surprising at the very least in the tight score! You have build an excellent side as always and one of my favorite in the draft. Nothing to criticize whatsoever and only could've gone to our strengths.

    As for Batistuta, the team is naturally build around Zico with him being the star here, but to me Batistuta would definitely thrive in partnering with him and Kalle.

    Batigol was always notorious in forming an exciting partnership with a top class #10 and Zico is phenomenal personnel to work with.
  37. Jul 12, 2018
    #37

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    aye, didn't want to face yours as well as Romario/Leonidas is one helluva pairing stylistically and you had top notch defensive unit, hence stacking up against a top heavy attacking side.

    The 4-3-3 above also looks mint and Blokhin/Facchetti looks particularly tasty and complimentary. :drool:
  38. Jul 12, 2018
    #38

    idmanager Full Member

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    Would it be a crime to play Edwards in the Beckenbauer/Baresi/Sammer role?

    Looks like a natural at it from the 1957 FA cup final game

  39. Jul 12, 2018
    #39

    Physiocrat Full Member

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    You have to remember though that Utd were essentially down to 10 men for most of that game so you don't get the full Dunc. He could certainly do a job, but it would be like putting Keane at DM.
  40. Jul 12, 2018
    #40

    idmanager Full Member

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    Yea, I know we were down to 10 men but his aerial ability seems amazing. Almost wins all headers with ease, shrugs off players with his sheer physical presence, quickly transitions to an attacking mode with his quick feet and what looks like a bit of wayward passing when he steps out which I guess is okay considering his age. I don't think Keane could ever look so smooth playing that role as Edwards seemed to look.

    Maybe I am reading too much into it, but I would definitely put him very close to Sammer in terms of style of play.