Is it time to settle to a 352?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Home&Away, Oct 21, 2017.

  1. Dec 4, 2017

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    We wont be bale to play like we did against Arsenal against pretty much any other team...and we have played the same tactics against Arsenal with different formations down the years.
  2. Dec 4, 2017

    wolvored Full Member

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    feck me not the vg chestnut again. Hes long gone let it go.
  3. Dec 4, 2017

    stevoc Full Member

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    Welcome to United JoMo!
    Very possibly mate who knows. Teams try old formations have success with them because teams are not used to playing against them. Others teams copy them with initial success then before long so many teams are using the formation that inevitably everyone gets used to playing against the system again and it is largely abandoned. Rinse repeat and as you say history repeats itself.
  4. Dec 4, 2017

    Nick. Full Member

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    3-1-4-2 is the Conte played to get the best out of Pogba. Everybody always says build around Pogba but they don't want this formation? My only problem with it is that I like Martial wide and I don't think he can score enough goals for it yet. Adding Griezmann would probably be ideal for this system but then where do Martial and Rashford fit in?
  5. Dec 4, 2017

    unitedforeveral Banned

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    I think it is ridiculous to think we have the squad for the 3-5-2 formation. Although we have Bailly, Lindelof, Jones, Smalling, Rojo and Tuanxebe as CBs, i certainly do not think any of those apart from Bailly and Lindelof are a ball playing CB. Smalling can definitely not play in the middle, in a 3 man defense. Bailly and Lindelof like playing in the right, Jones, Smalling and Rojo like to play on the left. Pogba should play on the left in a 3 man midfield or should play in the number 10. With Rashford we have a left winger, striker and also can play behind the striker. Martial is a pure striker and a pretty good LW as well. Lukaku is a pure number 9 who needs service. 3-5-2 is definitely not our strength.
  6. Dec 4, 2017

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt Scouse Lover

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    The main reason I'm thinking this is the way to go is Martial.
    A Martial that achieves his potential would win us titles.
  7. Dec 4, 2017

    Home&Away Banned

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    I really hope if the 352 sticks we give Cameron Borthwick Jackson a chance. Think he might lack some experience to play as a full back but as a wingback he could do some serious work for us.

    Lingard, Martial, Young, Valencia have really showed what players can do once put in to positions to get the best out of them.
  8. Dec 4, 2017

    Home&Away Banned

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    Why do you reply to people who have something positive to say about LVG? Your the one who needs to let it go & let a forum be a forum.

    People told you he would find us good young players & people told you he would help us with some basic tactics; yet all you do is compare him against managers who are clearly better at delivering finish products.

    If this stresses you out then maybe you should just let it be. The pro LVG fans knew 352 was the future of United because they have done their homework about him before he even got here; not because we just randomly plucking at cherries. Your just in the same group as fans at Barcelona who called him 'Mr always negative never positive'. Just your opinion of him is as biased as mine is- the only difference is some of us had lower expectations for his tenure but higher expectations for the future.

    As I always say; let's see in the future if the 352 is going to bring about the next historical Manchester United side; because it really isn't going anywhere. Our best performances at least against the big clubs tends to be from the 352 & if we can find a balance between attack/defence whilst including the likes of Rashford, Martial, Lingard (some of the other fringe youngsters) on top of the current managers top players - it is your choice not to give LVG credit & that doesn't make it more right or wrong compared to some of credit some of us decide to give to him.
  9. Dec 4, 2017

    Android1974 Incredibly anal about player positions in lineups City Lover

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    We were overrun in midfield by Huddersfield with the usual 4-2-3-1 and even at home with Brighton, so I'm not sure you can blame the 3-4-1-2 formation for that. If it was a true 3-5-2, with three central midfielders, we wouldn't, though, but maybe we wouldn't have that many counterattacking chances.
  10. Dec 4, 2017

    stevoc Full Member

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    Welcome to United JoMo!
    Didn't we have like 80% possession in that game?
  11. Dec 4, 2017

    vangagal Full Member

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    Mourinho always love his defence solid first. He would to anything to ensure that comes first, be it from formation or personal, his defence comes first, esecially in big games. We all know that. I dont think 3-5-2 will always be use, but right now, it's the safety bet in big games for Mourinho. Jones-Bailly aside, none of our CB strong enough to play 2 central defender. Everyone has their share of weaknesess. Add to that our LB's. None of them have full trust from Mourinho, even Young fairly suspect in defensive sense. So, with that condition, he play 3-5-2, to ensure we have enough protection for defence.

    If Mkhi or Mata had perform like early this season i think we gonna go 3-5-2. But our 10's performances have been worse for past month. For Mourinho its about balance and strong defence first, anything he will do for it.
  12. Dec 4, 2017

    westmeath Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    I had the exact same thought watching saturdays match. This was Fergies arsenal away template dusted down and used again. It needs real speed to be executed, which, to be fair Lingard delivered. I'm not sure this formation will get it done at home against defensive minded teams (most of our home games). It's more attuned to counter attack.
  13. Dec 4, 2017

    Rajma Full Member

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    Been telling this too, having one additional CB instead of another body in the midfield only going to invite a huge pressure with us being overrun.
  14. Dec 4, 2017

    MadMike Full Member

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    We did, but he won't let the facts get in the way a of a good story.
  15. Dec 4, 2017

    wolvored Full Member

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    I replied because the topic is about 3-5-2 formation not VG and 3-5-2. he didnt invent it you know. Why keep bringing up vg? OK you like him I get that, but just keep to the topic and the here and now. If you want to talk about Vg start another thread about him. Just to let you know I had high hopes with him in the first season, and hoped the football would kick on, but could see the same as virtually everyone else how it regressed as the second season wore on.
  16. Dec 4, 2017

    Rajma Full Member

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    Should not be used in the big games, against midtable sides away from home fine as it gives them enough believe to have a go at us since our midfield will get overan at times but ultimately they will lack quality to take advantage of it, while at the same time leaving huges gaps for us to exploit on the counter.

    Against big teams imo we should be using diamond with two up top given that we don't have world class wingers and have only certain players that can do the job there.
  17. Dec 4, 2017

    lex talionis Full Member

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    I don't think we can yet settle into any single formation. When Bailly and Jones are back and return to form there's no need for a three back set. And we're rarely ever going to rely on the low block.

    The bigger question for me is the short term future of Lukaku. Long term I have no worries whatsoever but I'm concerned about the persistence of his poor form in the last third. He put in a solid shift defensively against Arsenal and he put in a decent cross from the right side for the Rashford goal, but he's not beating defenders with the ball at his feet and that's a major worry. The answer is beyond me, but maybe we've found something in his "partnership", if you can even call it that, with Lingard. Jesse has earned the benefit of any doubt to hold down a regular starting role, at least for now, and that's where the analysis of the way forward has to begin. Either a 352 or a 4141 with Jesse Lingard, of all people, pulling the strings. Or if Lukaku can't pull himself together maybe Ibra has to take over for a while against the bus parkers where Ibra's lack of pace isn't a liability.
  18. Dec 4, 2017

    Android1974 Incredibly anal about player positions in lineups City Lover

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    You're right, 78%. Maybe I was mislead by the way Mata was literally run over by a Huddersfield player, losing the ball for their goal.
  19. Dec 4, 2017

    Home&Away Banned

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    The 352 should be played like this in my opinion playing around 2 pivots (this is actually what Guardipla fixed the 433 around a central pivot)-

    2-1-4-1-2

    A pivot just in front of the defence who bring the ball forward to Midfield allows the wingbacks to get forward (the CB/CDM hybrid type player) would only be able to do this if they had time and space to do so - meaning the wingbacks are free to get forward from WB to wingers if needed to.

    The ball is passed forward or given to the midfielders whilst the 1st pivot in front of defence falls back in to defence - giving us the defensive stability of a wide 3 at the back when the wing backs on the attack.

    Likewise the central attacking pivot as seen by Lingard recently can either takes the ball forward or run in to the spaces not occupied by the front two strikers creating a wider front 3 only when on the attack.

    The beauty of this formation is for example:

    Lukaku - martial
    Lingard

    Turned in to

    Lingard - Lukaku - Martial

    But is also supported by the wingback who got forward both offensively & defensively - allowing us to have

    Lingard - lukaku - martial - valencia

    Offensively valencia can attack or cross but if we get countered - valencia is the highest full back forward who presses; if the opposition try to run in to spaces behind valencia then he is most likely going to face the now widely positioned RCB (we saw this with Lindelof being aggressive quite a lot) or they have the opposite side to attack where our wing back quickly decide to fall back in to defence giving us

    Lindelof - Smalling - Rpjp - Young

    Until Valencia gets back; giving us up to 5 at the back.

    The problem so far is currently our central defensive pivot is a sweeper; someone who guards the two channels rather than being guarded to bring the ball forward & initiate attacks. There's a huge gap between defence & Midfield that hasn't been the case between attack and Midfield ever since Lingard started because he act like the pivot who either runs in to space or takes the ball forward after passing.

    If we get one for defence we would be balanced both attackingly and defensively but I'm sure Jose knows this; if he wanted a defensive CB/CDM hybrid he could play blind covered by 2 CB's but instead he opts for the extra defensive stability of the sweeper; making us play a more counterattacking/ defensive style of 352; the 532.
  20. Dec 4, 2017

    Rajma Full Member

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    Import to note that we actually employed 5212 rather than 532 as Lingard even though was working hard operated as number 10, which leaves defensively not very sound Pogba and Matic to handle the whole centre of the park. Given huges gaps and spaces sometimes between CBs and our MFs we were easy to walk through.
  21. Dec 4, 2017

    Home&Away Banned

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    Aye. Read my post above; smalling playing as a sweeper in the middle of defence is the furthest player from our midfield. The central pivot must be the one to initiate our attacking and defensive moves as a team; something Lingard has done wonderfully as a CAM both defensively and offensively. We get over run in Midfield because we are overly defensive with a formation that covers us defensively more than adequately by numbers alone - we lack the link between defence and Midfield both to defend & to attack.

    Smalling should be the first to tackle & the first to pass; but obviously that doesn't happen as he is played as a sweeper behind the back line that can accommodate up to 5 defenders.

    It will come sooner or later though.
  22. Dec 5, 2017

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    Yep. It's also the same tactics Jose has repeatedly used against Arsenal with Chelsea, when again he never used a 3-5-2. Wenger and Arsenal are the only club going who do nothing to counter tactics used against them even when stung countless times. Because Wenger is too arrogant to believe his team has to adapt or acknowledge another team's strengths to win.

    Other teams learn and not only that, usually watch what you do in other fixtures too. So they start the game prepared. City might be prepared to just steamroll smaller teams but in big games they change and adapt. They did against Chelsea and against Arsenal. They wont just charge at United and leave themselves completely open on the counter like Arsenal did.
  23. Dec 5, 2017

    automaticflare Full Member

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    Two horrible individual errors from us that day pissed me off for sure
  24. Dec 5, 2017

    Rajma Full Member

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    Stop this nonsense Jose, just play diamond and have one extra CM in there, we are going to get more control and defensive stability without losing out on counter attacking threat as it gives an option to play two up top still.
  25. Dec 5, 2017

    Infra-red Full Member

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    It's a 3-4-1-2 today. I'm not a fan, of this or a 3-5-2. It's too narrow and you can't control the opposition wingbacks (Fernandes & Vitinho keep working 2 vs 1's down our left-hand side).
  26. Dec 5, 2017

    Joeace2020 New Member

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    That 3 at the back seems to give the whole team much more freedom.
  27. Dec 5, 2017

    Mcking Full Member

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    Why is everyone worried about us being overrun in a 2man midfield when we have played it in every game this season bar at Stoke?
  28. Dec 6, 2017

    stevoc Full Member

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    Welcome to United JoMo!
    Yeah a bad mistake by Mata lead to their opening goal and a hopeful punt down the pitch and another horrible mistake by Lindelof gave them their second. We didn't play well that day by any means but i don't think it was one of those games where we were overrun in midfield.
  29. Dec 6, 2017

    Mcking Full Member

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    The formation we've played lately - 3-4-1-2 do suit us really well. It allows us to get a lot of our many CBs on the pitch, compensate for our lack of widemen, play Rashford and Martial in their preferred position and play just one of Lingard, and the out of form Mkhi and Mata(noted).
    The formation also allow Pogba, Young and Valencia to get forward well due to more defensive cover.
    Moreover, Lukaku really looks good in the formation as it allows him to consistently link up with the SS and AM; we look really good on the counter attack too.
    There are worries we might be overrun in midfield, but it has to be noted we have played a 3man midfield just once this season - and didn't win.
    I will like us to keep the formation for the rest of the season and even go as far as to say we should keep it beyond this season and sign players suited to it in the summer.
  30. Dec 6, 2017

    Devil may care Full Member Verified Moaner

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    I'm still not 100% sure due to a couple of factors, but it certainly suits Martial, Rashford and Lukaku, the latter benefits from having 2 other attackers close to him thus he's not required to hold the ball up and instead can release it quickly, where as the 2 young guns are free'd up from that dogged wide tracking duty and use the freedom well in attack as neither are wingers or #9's, so the system maximizes their attributes.
  31. Dec 6, 2017

    MyOnlySolskjaer Creator of Player Performance threads

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    I think it suits us but we need a bit more depth for this formation, say we lose Valencia at RWB, we don't have anyone who can fill this role adequately. Really happy with how our attackers, in particular, are doing in this system whether it be Lingard, Martial, Rashford or Lukaku.
  32. Dec 10, 2017

    Home&Away Banned

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    Another rubbish result playing an ancient old formation that doesn't work.

    Time & time again- the 352 is ingrained in to this squad (don't ask me why) -

    Players like martial & Rashford are strikers and better ones than lukaku

    Players like blind who is severely underrated by Jose for neanderthal like reasons should be play as a 3rd CB in Central areas of the pitch.

    I mean we want to counter attack but have not a single ball playing defender put until half time.

    The 352 allows us to defend well from having numbers behind the ball and attack well by having the most attacking players in the right positions.

    Just shambles - all over; whether ppgba is not on the pitch or not; there is absolutely no reason not to use this formation.

    United will never be consistent winners until we have a consistent formation - that has to be the 352.
  33. Dec 10, 2017

    settembrini Full Member

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    It's clearly the formation that suits us the best and not playing it today after the recent wins was a remarkably bad decision.
  34. Dec 10, 2017

    Murder on Zidane's Floor You'd better not kill Giroud

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    I agree.

    Gets the best out of our centre backs, they need support as they are not good enough to play in a pair.

    Takes some of the defensive responsibilities away from our converted winger full backs.

    Three in the middle to pack against difficult teams like City.

    Two strikers so there is no isolation.
  35. Dec 10, 2017

    criticalanalysis Full Member

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    It's not formation so much, it's tactics and mentality from Mourinho.

    It's gotta come top down. There's no organisation or coaching on how to get the ball forward, how to retain possession, how to press, how to attack etc.

    Mourinho a world class manager at organising defences but when that tactic is basically 'get everyone behind the ball when you don't have it', that's easy. Players need direction and instructions otherwise there's uncertainty and at this level, that's the difference.
  36. Dec 10, 2017

    Home&Away Banned

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    But that's part of the reason the 352 is good - it gives us the solidity of having 5 defenders back & having our attacking players ready in a formation to counterattack if that is what Jose wants to do.

    Playing 451 & playing counter attack is pure stupidity; its neither stronger defensively than having 5 at the back & neither does it have the attackers in the right positions to counter attack.

    It is negative tactics for sure - but even that needs to have a well drilled formation. This changing formation per opponent is making us look like we are never a master of our own formation
  37. Dec 10, 2017

    Random Task Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    I am at a loss as to why Jose dropped the 352 in favour of the 451 today.

    The midfield were severely overrun throughout that first half and small portions of the second, entirely due to lack of numbers. Matic and Herrera may as well have been statues, they had absolutely no effect. Lingard's positional sense is god awful, particulary from a defensive viewpoint. The front 3 found themselves completely isolated time and again, consistently running into packs of blue shirts with no support from those in red. Lingard was partially at fault for thisdue to his poor positional sense, he offered literally no link from midfield to attack.

    The 451 doesn't work (against the big teams especially) and I say again,I'm at a loss as to why Jose adopted it today in favour of the far more tactically secure 352.
  38. Dec 10, 2017

    Roboc7 Full Member

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    Think the way Arsenal carved us open last week meant the 3-5-2 had to be dropped. I don’t think the formation makes that much difference the big issue is there aren’t enough players who can pass the ball well enough and retain the ball under pressure.
  39. Dec 10, 2017

    DevilRed Full Member

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    Formation had nothing to do with it today. Two individual errors.
  40. Dec 10, 2017

    Home&Away Banned

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    Of course it did - the 352 allows us to defend and counter attack just by looking at the wingbacks alone . We did it once the whole game. It gives us tactical solidity with the ability to attack & defend in number - which was odd because the attacking didn't happen in a game we needed to win.