Is Matic a big reason why we can't build attacks?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Adam-Utd, Oct 8, 2018.

  1. Oct 9, 2018
    #81

    Grande Full Member

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    Your memory of the season seems very selective. Leicester and Brighton in particular we didn’t create much at all.

    Our best periods of play and chance creation came against Tottenham (first half), Burnley, Watford and Young Boys.

    I thought Matic played well and Improved our flow and balance once he entered the team this season, but he’s been deteriorating by the game. Maybe he can’t take the intensity, or maybe he is afflicted by what the reat of the team is afflicted by.
  2. Oct 9, 2018
    #82

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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    Think it's a combination of things (including Matic).

    Firstly, Jose's tactics are to retain possession with little risk which prevents players making passes which MAY come off (especially at the back). The CHs are poor at bringing the ball out (compare it to say the Valencia game where the defenders looked comfortable) which allows the opposition to sit/man mark, Matic has definitely slowed down and very cautious (maybe linked to Jose's tactics .... caution), Pogba/Martial/Sanchez can cope with fast fluid passing, some of the others can't, especially Lukaku who is too static - doesn't make the runs to help the passer and if you knock it to him, his first touch is dreadful and for a big man, gets outmuscled too easily (compare to say Arnautovic). Finally, most of the team stand still and passes are made to feet, which is much easier to defend against. No idea why we don't move more/pass into space.

    We have a cautious manager (which is a waste of some of the players we have), we have players with poor technique (first touch, moving with the ball (defenders) and inability to make a mix of passes), we have a slow Def Mid (which negates ability of Pogba, Sanchez, Martial, Rashford, Lingard), the midfield three doesn't gel in style and Lukaku is not the CH for us (goals but little else).

    The end of the Newcastle game was only a cameo but at least showed what the players can do if they play with more pace, more front foot, more ambition. It has to be tempered depending on opposition but with the players we've got, a negative/slow style is pointless.
  3. Oct 9, 2018
    #83

    TMDaines Full Member

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    This. Absolutely this.
  4. Oct 9, 2018
    #84

    Cnaiür urs Skiötha Full Member

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    Right now I have the feeling we mainly have 2 different kind of players:

    The immobile ones slowing our play down (Matic, Lukaku, Smalling, Fellaini) and quicker ones being good on the ball but suffering from the headless chicken syndrome (Martial, Rashford, Sanchez).

    Modern football is all about mobility, movement without the ball, positioning, quick decision making, slick passing, pressing etc.
    Only few of our players seem to have that kind of abilities and the ones that could fit into such a philosophy like Mata, Herrera or Lingard are too inconsistent or too average.

    Matic is a player that needs his time on the ball to produce something great and I am not sure if this is still possible when playing on the absolute top level against the world elite.
  5. Oct 9, 2018
    #85

    Adam-Utd Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    Thanks for the condescending post :lol:

    It's funny you mention these as strengths, as I think he's struggling massively in parts 1 and 2.

    1. He rarely actually breaks up play unless he's inside the box already, when the play is moving quickly he gets nowhere near forward runners.

    So many times he stands off his marker as he's scared to get tight. Just look at the 3rd west ham goal for example of this.

    2. He is a poor link as he moves the ball so slowly. He takes 4/5 touches when only 2/3 are needed. His passing ability is quite limited, and he can't drive the ball up the field as he's too slow at accelerating.

    I just feel he isn't in good form and what he brings to the team isn't enough. Herrera made more interceptions and tackles than Matic does, the only thing Matic does better is win headers.
  6. Oct 9, 2018
    #86

    Raees Fairweather Fan

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    Even when Matic was one of our better players (last season) we still struggled to build attacks unless the entire team is chasing a deficit. He’s in bad form now but it makes no difference.

    I have seen excuses such as lack of ball playing defenders, now it is Matic - wonder what is going to be next.

    The defence and Matic were actually key in us getting a very undeserved second place last year so that’s tells you all you need to know about what the real problems are at this club and a good 20 minutes against Newcastle shouldn’t make everyone oblivious to the true culprit for our shit performances.

    The problem is we have an issue with enjoying victories when they do fortunately come our way and the reason is that they get used as a way to shield the manager from criticism to a point which is beyond comprehensible reason.
  7. Oct 9, 2018
    #87

    finneh Full Member

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    Matic is an issue as he lingers on the ball far too long. However I don't believe this problem is down to Matic just being unable to release the ball quickly. I believe that he is one of the few players who wants to play the ball forwards whenever he can; but due to a lack of movement in front of him as well as his lack of mobility/ability to beat a man; he ends up holding on to the ball for far too long pending an available pass.

    Out of our attacking 6 players we have Matic, Pogba, Fellaini, Martial and Lukaku; the majority of which always start and all of which do not provide movement off the ball. This creates a huge problem as particularly Pogba/Matic need movement around them to be most effective.

    I personally think we can only get away with maybe two statuesque players of our six most offensive, one of which has to be Pogba due to what he uniquely brings to our team. If we're playing Matic and Pogba in my opinion it has to be with four including Lingard, Sanchez, Mata, Fred, Rashford and/or Herrera. In my view therefore we have to make a choice: Herrera in the DM role with Lukaku/Pogba in the team or my preferred option which would be Matic in the DM role with Sanchez or Rashford up front.
  8. Oct 9, 2018
    #88

    Giggsyking Full Member

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    short answer
    yes
  9. Oct 9, 2018
    #89

    Giggsyking Full Member

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    the only way we can build on attack and matic on the pitch is if he plays like last game in the defense. He was embarrassing to watch him play this season and I feel sorry for Pogba playing alongside him.
  10. Oct 9, 2018
    #90

    Mainoldo Full Member

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    Great skill set... poor execution! He can’t dictate the tempo because he doesn’t believe in one touch football.
  11. Oct 9, 2018
    #91

    Johan07 Full Member

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    This is a very good post. Not at least beacuse it focuses on the one thing that Mourinho has not achieved since arriving here; getting rid of these unnecessary turnovers in attack. Be it in possession or on the counter.
    I wrote a similar post above but it focused on Lukaku instead of Sanchez. Both give up the ball way too many times for the type of defensive game we are trying to play. Be it that they lose the ball in different manners, but the effect is the same.
    I was surprised that Mourinho stuck with Sanchez so long just because of this; we will see what he will do with Lukaku who is also a culprit of the same behaviour.
    That said, we always have enough players behind the ball Mourinho style. Matic and a back four should be able to handle transitions against (even if they are way too many). Matic is just not mobile enough for this though.
    I see two remedies; either get rid of Matic and buy new/deploy someone like Herrera in front of the back four. But that would limit is when we do sit low (which is like most of the time) and need Matic to help defend crosses
    Or make Lukaku and Sanchez sit on the sidelines for awhile. Play Fellaini up front and Lingard and Mata on the wings. That would fix the issue of too many turnovers, but it would also severely limit our offensive play in other ways.
    I would not want to be Mourinho right now, but he put himself in this position, especially when he bought Matic and Lukaku and made them the focal points of our team. And then added Sanchez, who made the issues we are discussing here even worse.
  12. Oct 9, 2018
    #92

    Marcky411 Full Member

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    YES, YES , YES, far to slow needs far to many touches on the ball and ends up, like Herrera passing sideways or backwards instead of looking up to pass forward. Like Valencia, Matic is also on his last legs and get often overrun in midfield, that is also why he sits so deep that he often slots in between the CD which sometimes is the cause that the CD's don't really know who is picking up who of the opposition's runners.
  13. Oct 9, 2018
    #93

    Dr Fink Full Member

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    To me, he was the main problem in the first half against Newcastle. He was far too ponderous on the ball. I thought Jose was bringing Mata on for him. He looks very leggy already this season. The lack of movement in front of him doesn't help either.
  14. Oct 9, 2018
    #94

    thegaffa New Member

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    He only had one good season at Chelsea in the end it was Kante that made everyone look good including people like David Luiz.
  15. Oct 9, 2018
    #95

    Rifer Full Member

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    Big reason is overstretching it. Yes, he's part of the reason but "a big reason"? Come on..

    Is he a player that excel in building attacks i.e. playmaking at the back? No.
    How is his passing skills? Not bad, not too good either. Fine solid passing skills and fine passing range.
    Can he spot his surrounding team mates and pass to them accurately? Yes.
    If not building attacks, then does he offer something else to the team? Yes, a lot.
    How is his form recent games? Not a consistent good run of form.

    ---

    Thread is in respond to his current bad form isn't it.
    Let's remember back last season and hope he will gain back that form.

    So what if he's not that good in building up attacks.

    Solution
    Just pair him up with other players who can build attacks, and team mates who'll offers him more better options to be given passes. Last I heard, football is still a team sport.
  16. Oct 9, 2018
    #96

    PepsiCola Full Member

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    I got blasted for saying he was largely average last season and would need replacing this coming summer.

    Would you look at that...

    Guys largely crap, a few classy performances and Bakoyoko being worse made him exepmt from critique for too long.
  17. Oct 9, 2018
    #97

    Crashoutcassius Full Member

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    The players is part of the problem. But it is mostly down to the coaching which mourinho needs to improve dramatically. From what he says the desire to improve it is there but he needs to deliver that now
  18. Oct 9, 2018
    #98

    kkengvib New Member

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    I don't think so. I think he provides the same qualities as Carrick (shorter passing range but slightly better on the ball) and we managed fine with Michael. It's the movement around him and the static attack that has us reverting to the zombie passing.
  19. Oct 9, 2018
    #99

    Odoi New Member

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    A very limited player and I cant believe united fans were cheering when he was bought.
  20. Oct 10, 2018

    Andersons Dietician Full Member

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    Our movement is an issue but sorry the amount of times he has options to make a decisive pass and he turns away from it are unreal, he seems scared to take that risk or execute the pass and his general pace of passing is awful. I think he is a stronger person than Carrick so can hold people off better but Carrick had ice in his veins and never really panicked, could hold that ball till the pass presented itself.
  21. Oct 10, 2018

    Aloysius's Back 3 Full Member

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    Carrick made the right pass at the right time & would be a way that he relieves pressure off the defence by inviting pressure on to him before releasing that ball to the best placed midfielder in front of him.

    Matic takes too long in midfield, invites pressure that stays constant, doesn't always find the best possible pass forward to relieve us of that pressure. Good on the defensive side & that's pretty much it.
  22. Oct 11, 2018

    kkengvib New Member

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    I get where you're coming from, but do you think that's not because of the tactics and the role the manager has given him? I don't think that's what he's been told to do - make that decisive killer pass. That's more Pogba's role. He's there to control the tempo of the game and distribute to others - again similar to Carrick. I think he's being exposed this season a bit because Pogba has been pushed forward more and he doesn't really have a partner who's good on the ball to relief some of the pressure (Fred doesn't play enough and Fellaini is not the ideal partner for him). We've bought him probably when he was on his last legs as well, which isn't great.

    I also don't think he's scare of making that pass. Remember this guy used to be an attacking midfielder/playmaker in his younger days.

    For the role he's been asked to do, I think he's a decent player. Has he had a drop in form? Yeah sure. I still think he's important and offers something that none of our other midfielders can.
  23. Oct 11, 2018

    Adcuth Full Member

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    So in essence, replacing matic win someone who shields the defence but can pick a key pass from deep will allow pogba to stay forward and improve our play. Who do we sign then?
  24. Oct 11, 2018

    RikRuud Full Member

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    He’s been in poor form since the Liverpool draw at Anfield last season.
  25. Oct 11, 2018

    Judas Open to offers

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    Comparing him to Carrick is an absolute insult to one of our best players of the last 15 years.
  26. Oct 11, 2018

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt Scouse Lover

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    Our problem isn't that we can't build attacks. It's we can't sustain them.
  27. Oct 11, 2018

    Andersons Dietician Full Member

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    I do think his role is basic, get the ball off the CB’s give it to Pogba and just break up play. However he is a footballer and I’m not saying has to play these defence splitting inch perfect passes but really the amount of times I’m watching him and it’s not even a hard pass it’s a straight line to someone out wide in space or just moving it to someone to create an angle which would put opposition Nader threat and he doesn’t take the opportunity. I don’t think that would be by instruction or part of the tactics and if it is it shines badly on a lot more than just him.

    In general I think our whole tactical set up is rubbish and people don’t know what they are doing and it just ends up in a complete mess. However being that I was an avid member of the bring Matic in he’ll be great I’m having serious second thoughts now. I would hope some rest, hopefully a new manager will instil some confidence back in him and we see more of the player who was here for the first 2 months but right now for me he is a big part of the issues we have.
  28. Oct 11, 2018

    redshaw Full Member

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    As a lot of players, he had a good first few months last season, lots of energy and inventive play then he's been quite poor mostly.

    Thing is we tend to make scapegoats out of certain players, they don't feature and we still look slow and crap.
  29. Oct 11, 2018

    Oscar.Z.Acosta Full Member

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    It’s far more than just Matic’s slow play. Surely that’s self-evident?!
  30. Oct 11, 2018

    PepsiCola Full Member

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    We really should have let Fred, Pereira and Pogba gel as a midfield 3.
  31. Oct 11, 2018

    gerdm07 Full Member

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    Yes. And I think this because I just watched a recording of the Chelsea v Liverpool match and saw Jorghino move the ball so quickly. His play is infectious as you see kante and Kovicek (?) also play a lot of one-touch passing. In contrast, we have Matic, Pogba and Fellaini who, it seems, only play a one touch pass if it's backwards or very easy. Maybe Fred and Andres could quicken our pace but it doesn't seem Mou wants to go in that direction. As long as Mou is here the majority of our play will be slow and conservative.
  32. Oct 11, 2018

    Van Piorsing Lost his light sabre

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    Just like Lukaku, he doesn't have a strong rivalry on his position which is a strictly defensive midfielder. More advanced position on the pitch automatically forces him to run back to his defensive position and it takes also too long.
  33. Oct 14, 2018

    Bestietom Full Member

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    Fred will always try to move the ball forward but he is not played, Pereira is the same and is not played. WHY??
  34. Oct 14, 2018

    Mcking Full Member

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    The coach is the main problem.
  35. Oct 16, 2018 at 15:12

    JK-27 Full Member

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    Jose has stated we don't have the technical ability to play out from the back (i.e., our defenders can't pass), so he has asked Matic, Pogba, and McTominay to drop deep and take the ball off them to start to build an attack. When our midfielders are dropping in to our final third to get the ball, and our attackers are staying in the oppositions final third to create opportunities we are getting the massive gaps between midfield and attack that we see.

    Jose is asking the wide players of the front 3 to drop back in to midfield to help combat this and provide defensive cover but we're still getting outnumbered in midfield due to our natural midfield players being too deep. Then we lump the ball up the field anyway and wonder why Lukaku can't get hold of the ball when he's surrounded by 4 defenders because all our others players are so far back.

    It's a tactical problem, not a player problem. If we'd have got Maguire or Toby I don't think we'd have that problem, but Jose simply doesn't trust Smalling, Lindelof, Bailly, or Jones with the ball (and I can't blame him). But he does need to find a better solution than having our midfield players drop so deep to get the ball.
  36. Oct 18, 2018 at 15:15

    Slik New Member

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    I have seen several times a player tries to do a one two passing move with Matic and then Matic passes the ball backwards whiles the other player is running forward. And then the opposition regroup before we can attack them again. He looks like a player who doesn’t want to take risks with his passing. I think he slows our attacking play down. I believe mourinho plays him because he reads the game better as a defensive midfielder. But he really offers so little to our attack and build up.
  37. Oct 18, 2018 at 15:41

    Ekeke Full Member

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    There's not much wrong with a DM who wants to play simple passes and give the ball to more talented players. What isnt good is if that same DM tries to get on the ball as much as possible. That means that a large amount of what our team is doing with the ball is simple passes. Thats Matic. He wants the ball all the time but wants to play a simple passing game to keep the ball. He's made our 2nd highest amount of passes this season, 1 behind Pogba - but joint 2nd lowest key passes of our CMs and attackers with Rashford. Andreas is lowest but hasnt played much.
  38. Oct 18, 2018 at 17:24

    Red00012 New Member

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  39. Oct 18, 2018 at 17:28

    Red00012 New Member

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  40. Oct 18, 2018 at 17:31

    VeevaVee despite the protests, wears Ugg boots

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    It looked as though he 'unlocked Pogba' when he first came and was exactly what we needed. So what's changed? Increased expectation? Matic not performing? Poor tactics? Age?