Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by MyOnlySolskjaer, Oct 14, 2017.
What i thought myself, thankfully it seems I'm not crazy.
We've got Tuanzebe, no reason to feel envious about any club having a fine young defender.
Christ, so Joe Gomez is world class now. This place
Grass is always greener on the other side syndrome.
One of the biggest wind up comments I've read in a while.
So wish we had Gomez who cant get a game at Liverpool and played in a defence set up for England because virtually every single other defender in the country was ruled out through injury.
He's young, he's a prospect, lets not get carried away. If he cant get lovren out of the Liverpool team, that tells you everything you need to know
I referenced Lingard because he is a relatively average player that has somehow hung up to his place in the squad during the same years that Gomez and Alli have been targeted, signed and progessed (and I feel that United should be targeting players of profiles like Gomez and Alli).
Obviously it's not just Lingard - there are other players that we have that I look at and think "Why is he here whilst our rivals are looking at X?".
I am not now comparing United's academy to either Liverpool's or Tottenham's, nor at any point have I done so.
My point about Alli is self-explanatory.
Would you not like us to target talented young players, the type we used to sign, during the Ferguson years?
He's started 8 of their 11 PL games this season. He is sharing the RB spot with TAA but is the first choice of the two.
He's a promising young player with great potential.
How did I do ?
Still bollox to claim he’s “the player we pretend Bailly is”. I’m quite happy with the player Bailly actually is instead of Gomez, thanks very much. The point about him not keeping Lovren out of the team is also valid. Anyone who thinks Bailly wouldn’t be a regular in central defence for Liverpool this season is living in cloud cuckoo land.
I think Gomez will become the better player than Bailly but he isn't established yet. There is some hyperbole of course.
As an aside, for me Bailly is our more overrated player. I don't think he is as good as Jones. I would put him on a level with Smalling. I think his front foot style of defending endears him to fans.
And is soon as Clyne is back, he'll get nowhere at RB and still wont be a regular CB.
Liverpool would love a player like Bailly, he'd walk in they're team.
1 half decent game for England he's had, in a meaningless friendly where England played very defensively. 3 at the back is easier than 2, and with defensive minded wingbacks and 2 holding midfielders he hardly had a tough test against Brazil.
Like I say, he is a young player with potential. He may well develop into a very good CB for Liverpool, but lets all calm down a little for now saying he's better than Bailly and other players who are actually established premier league CB's.
While I didn't see your game last night where apparently he did well, I still think some of you are getting a bit carried away. Gomez is a prospect and could turn out to be brilliant. I certainly hope he does, but so many times have young players been spoken of as the second coming without ever getting there. Let him cement a place in our awful defense before making him a Maldini in the making. If he's as good as I hope, he should soon replace Lovren.
And I think I’ll become a bitcoin millionaire 10 years before I’m due to retire. Right now I’m not, though, and I might never be. So it’s still a load of old bollox to say Gomez is already the player that we pretend that Bailly is.
As an aside, you seem to be massively underrating Bailly. He’s raw and inconsistent (yong and lernin) but when he has a good game he looks absolutely top class.
Too much middle ground for the caf, is he world class or fecking shite?
How about fecking world shite? Best of both worlds.
Iam a middle ground kind of fella.
He doesn’t have anywhere near the quality with the ball that you would want from a DM. Defensively, sure he’d be fine once he learned the position but he’s just too limited with the ball at his feet to play in that position.
I have noticed that the liverpool fans amongst my friends group seem to really have a intense dislike/underrating of Bailly. They don't seem to rate him highly at all.. ditto Pogba. Make of that what you will.. they're usually quite fair in their opinions, but we have massive disagreements on those players.
IMO they'd kill for a player like Bailly in their side. He's definitely better than Gomez at this moment in time.. as much as I rate Gomez, no way has he shown the potential that Bailly has shown as an all-round defender.
Of course Gomez isn't better than Bailly at the moment. I don't think I am underrating him, Smalling is a very good defender.
Ok, cool. We're on the same page so.
I think I'm with you on this too. I'd probably rank our three central defenders in the same order that you do. Although I maybe see more scope for Bailly to improve in his second and subsequent seasons. Considering his age and how little top flight football he's played I think he's been fairly fecking impressive so it's a little harsh to call him "overrated" IMO.
Disagree and wonder just how much you've actually seen of him. A DM doesn't have to a creative force, more a destructive one, Masherano wasn't creative per se and Kante isn't exactly either, for example.
Never understood why Smalling gets such a bad rap on RC. Always seems like a really decent CB to me, not a world-beater but then few are.
Just don't see the relevance of mentioning Lingard when the club produced him as opposed to signing him from elsewhere like Dele and Gomez. It's a poor comparison to make.
United have an excellent record with young players but it's not just as simple as you make it sound. Fergie signed Smalling, Jones, Zaha, all very well sought after but never really delivered what was expected. Johnny Evans was another youth product who was moved on and couldn't really handle the pressure. In the same breath though we have Rashford and Pogba playing week in week out from our academy (yes I know Pogba was initially at Le Harve but he developed at United as a kid).
It's also worth baring in mind that Gomez and Dele haven't 'made it' yet. There's alot of time left to judge them and it won't all be great. Young players aren't like that as it can take alot of time and patience. Currently we don't have that time to play with and need a mixture of youth with established quality.
Depends on the personnel he had alongside him. Never gonna be a Pirlo or a Carrick, but play him as a pure defensive-minded DM and it could work, he's good enough technically and confident enough in possession to be able to play simply and recycle the ball at least.
Still, for me he's a CB and that's always been the plan with him at least up until he went to Liverpool, but I'm assuming that's what Rodgers had in mind for him as well, whether Klopp sees the same I don't know.
So Joe Gomez, who can't get a game in the shakiest defence of any big side at centre-back, is a better defender currently than a key part of statistically one of the best defences in Europe?
The mind boggles sometimes.
I remember a few Liverpool fans rating him very highly after he played for Villarreal against Liverpool (season before we signed him), and saying the same when we signed him. This re-enforced my view we had got a gem.
There seems to be an under rating of Bailly this season. People forget how good he was for nearly all of last season. I think he's suffering slight second season syndrome.
Wouldn't be surprised if Klopp plays him at CB this weekend.
That´s a very fair point about the style of football England played against Brazil: very defensively. Given how offensively Mourinho always sets up his teams (especially compared to Klopp) Bailly is consistently more exposed at the back and that should factor into the evaluation of the players.
Was fantastic against Brazil. Was a bit sceptical before, but he certainly proved me wrong. Fair play to him.
The Caf is a funny old place. Gomez has gone from a nobody to the next Baresi in the space of an international friendly.
Gomez might not have, but Alli definitely has. He's been one of Spurs' best players for the last 3 seasons.
Agree with all that.
First bold part:
There is a key difference between what happened during the Fergie period you referenced (2010 to 2013) and what is happening now: back then, we actually made an effort to sign that profile of young player; now we don't try
If you sign 10 young players and have a 50% conversion rate (no. these players signed that go on to be first team regulars / no. these players signed) then at least you end up with five quality young-ish players
We don't currently look at this market, so we sign 0 of these players, don't have a conversion rate and end up with nothing to show for it
Buying a talented young player from a smaller team/lower division that is clearly better than his peers can be a high-risk/high-reward endeavour
Second bold part:
I can't argue with that
In an 'ideal' world it would be preferable if we targeted the best players of the 16-21 age group (planning for the future, molding the next generation, buying early to avoid overpaying for peak age players)
This is the real world and, as you state, we don't have the time
A Liverpool supporting mate of mine is cursing Gomez and reckons he's been woeful lately. I avoid watching most Liverpool matches so I have no idea whether or not he's spot on about this. Anyhow, that's a hugely differing opinion than some of the hyperbole in here.
Is he not a CB? He doesn’t look very good going forward at RB. There was some ridiculous things said after the Brazil game in particular.
I think he's decent, he was poor against Swansea though.
He's not a right back for me. Holding midfielder or CB.
He's not a right back and sadly he's not a CB either at this stage of his development. His perfect position is RCB. He needs to be at a club where 3 at the back is the regular formation and I can't see that ever happening at Liverpool.
I can see him excelling for England, but possibly dropping out of the Liverpool first team unless he brushes up on his CB skills. Will never be a top RB for me.
To be fair your's was the first post in a couple of months.
Haven't been hugely impressed by him. Looks poor at RB certainly - at fault for Sane's goal v City and was pretty terrible last night too.
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