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Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added

Discussion in 'Player Performances Forum' started by Suedesi, Aug 9, 2017.

?

Your stance

Poll closed May 25, 2018.
  1. Top manager in charge of a major rebuild. Needs more time and/or money.

    43.8%
  2. Made improvements but we've stagnated. Sack him if we drop out of top 4

    24.1%
  3. He's not the right fit. Sack him and get someone else who can get more out of our squad

    32.1%
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  1. Mar 11, 2018

    Roboc7 Full Member

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    That is a good point but I don’t think we have anywhere near the individual talent that Madrid had and that is what Mourinho will have to find in next transfer window.

    The managers tactics and playing style are in place now, that is not going to change or improve. I hope I am wrong but I don’t see it being enough, think we are too passive and defensive to make that step up, maybe the right signings make the difference though.
  2. Mar 11, 2018

    Witchking Full Member

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    I really need to be less pessimistic about Jose. Fantastic win yesterday and his post match comments show that the team is with him and is trying to play on the template. All credit to him for planning the game on Liverpool's weakness and exploiting it.

    I had serious doubts about Lukaku, and now he is showing signs of being a United striker and Jose also deserves a lot of credit for that. I hope this continues, all i would expect next season is for United to play a bit more openly as we have the ability to put teams to the sword. This type of pragmatic approach is fine when we play teams who have extremely fast forwards.

    Well done Jose. Now hopefully Sanchez and Pogba become the main players, and we have an almost finished team who can take on anyone. Will take time i guess. Now we need to continue this good run against Sevilla and Brighton and end the season on a strong note, reaching the UCL semis, finishing second and winning the FA cup can be considered excellent progress.
  3. Mar 11, 2018

    Stacks Full Member

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    reminds me of the win at home vs Chelsea in terms of exploiting weaknesses of our opponents. He is building a great home record vs our direct rivals in the league. This game may not mean nothing in the grand scheme of the league but it is very pleasing to not lose to Pool in quite some time and bring Klopp back down to Earth. Jose did a number on Klopp there. Jose's tactical battle wins warrant some sort of reward. Perhaps the FA Cup???/
  4. Mar 11, 2018

    PaulScholes99 New Member

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    Most of the time it seems to be quite obvious for all of us what Jose did wrong when we lose/draw games. Wrong formation, wrong tactic, wrong players, etc. - everyone of us finds answers what he would have done better instead of Jose.

    On the other hand it doesn't seem that obvious what Jose does right when "he" wins a game through good tactics. Sometimes the answers are simple (e.g. against Chelsea, the start wasn't good but his substitutions were on point and Lingard even scored and decided the game as sub) but also sometimes i don't get it.

    Therefore my question: What is Jose's secret of stopping Liverpool's offense?

    One time could be luck, but since Jose manages us, we played Liverpool 4 times and they scored only 2 goals in this 360 mins. Sounds good, but is in reality even better, as one goal was an unbelievable stupid error of Pogba who gave them a penalty and the other goal was an world class own goal of Bailly. So they didn't manage to score out of open game in these 4 games (yesterday they didn't even create a big chance out of open game) against us since Mourinho is our coach. Pretty eye-catching in my opinion as they are the most threatening offense in Premier League beside Man City.

    But, as already written, how does Jose stop their offense? I rewatched the full game and didn't find an answer. All i saw was our team being aggressive, not letting them make the game wide, not giving them too much room to use their speed and playing with long balls to avoid their pressing. But that can't be the key as probably every amateur coach realise these points but nobody can really stop their offense.

    Another cause i thought about is our defensive strength at home. 7 goals this season at home so far is brilliant and also last year with only 12 goals against at home we were more than just solid. But also that can't be the solution as we concede some more goals away from home but especially at Anfield we played 0-0 the last two games.

    So, is there anyone who knows and can explain me the solution (or at least believes to know it)? I just don't see it...
  5. Mar 11, 2018

    haram Full Member

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    The absence of certain posters in this thread is hilarious :lol:
  6. Mar 11, 2018

    SirAF Ageist

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    Ooooh, I know the answer to this one!
  7. Mar 11, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Name them.
  8. Mar 11, 2018

    SirAF Ageist

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    Nah, that's just going to fracture the mood.
  9. Mar 11, 2018

    haram Full Member

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    Nah, they know who they are. These people would have been the first people in here had we lost.

    :lol:
  10. Mar 11, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    :lol: I guessed that.
  11. Mar 11, 2018

    SirAF Ageist

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    :lol:

    feck, you caught my mistake before the edit too!
  12. Mar 11, 2018

    Dorock New Member

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    I watched some tactical analysis videos on it actually and tought it was pretty impressive. Liverpool tends to find spaces with those trough balls between the fullback and the centre back. By making the back 4 really narrow like 10-20 yards between the fullbacks while mata and rash closing down the corridors was key for achieving this defensive dominance.
  13. Mar 12, 2018

    RooneyLegend Full Member

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    We're a country mile behind City, and while they're reaching 80 points now, we'll be doing that at the end. The fact is 80-90 points will most likely not be enough for a title challenge as long as Pep is around at City. Some believe Jose will build a 90 point side i just don't see it. We're not an side that wins matches emphatically enough like a 90+ point side.
  14. Mar 12, 2018

    Jngun Banned

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    I am going to debunk people's assumption about Jose Mourinho by using the facts here :

    As you can see, the "Jose Mourinho is defensive" narrative isn't true, he will attack when he thinks he need to attack and defend when he thinks he need to defend, he knew his Real Madrid team must attack and score because we had an away goal scored by Welbeck, while Fergie knew he had to defend and play counter attack.
    i rather say he is pragmatic manager rather than defensive, exactly the same kind manager with Sir Alex, who puts winning above anything else at all cost using any way. Remember how Sir Alex put Park to nullify Pirlo, put Welbeck to nullify Alonso, put Jones to deal with Fellaini that's what a pragmatic manager does - identify opposition key player and try to nullify them. A reactionary manager sets the team to counter opposition tactic rather than playing their own games.

    They (Jose and Sir Alex) are both cut from the same cloth, unfortunately, people believe more in what media feed them with rather than finding the truth. No wonder they becomes best friend , because they have same footballing principle
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  15. Mar 12, 2018

    Akshay Moderator Staff

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    A one match sample size isn't a very good proof of anything, especially a match which featured a very controversial sending-off that completely changed the course of the game. I do agree that Fergie was pragmatic at times, especially in Europe, but it wasn't his preferred way to play and not the way United set up in most big games. That's the difference with Mourinho, who prefers to ensure he nullifies the opposition in big matches. Put it this way, Fergie would like to win an important game 3-2, Jose would prefer to win 1-0.
  16. Mar 12, 2018

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    In europe, Jose ended up getting his 1-0 win more than fergie actually pull 3-2

    United fans should know better how Fergie himself thinks he's naive tactically in Europe and only in later years he changes his approach. We played pretty much pragmatist football against Jose' Madrid and might actually pull it off if not for Cekir
  17. Mar 12, 2018

    SCP Full Member

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    I took this from a portuguese tactical blog https://www.lateralesquerdo.com/201...e-em-que-mourinho-venceu-mais-um-jogo-grande/

    Probably the majority here doesn't speak, its interesting because the guys at that blog are Guardiola and Messi fans, but they actually praised the organisation United had yesterday, neutralising all offensive transitions from Liverpool.

    They do like Klopp, and one of them was a big fan of Mourinho in the period between Porto and Inter.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  18. Mar 12, 2018

    Listar Full Member

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    Less we forget those big matches where we end up 4-1 and 4-0. I love SAF, but those matches gave me nightmares and I do not want to experience that again. I prefer LVG matches against liv and city than the drubbing we got in some Fergie matches.
  19. Mar 12, 2018

    Akshay Moderator Staff

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    As I said, Fergie did play more pragmatically in Europe than in the PL, especially in later years as you say. I'm just pointing out the default styles of the two managers isn't the same. Fergie preferred to play expansively and had to adapt as necessary. Mourinho prefers to play 'pragmatically' in the first place.

    Sure those weren't pleasant memories but you're comparing 27 years of management to 2. If LVG stuck around for a few more seasons he'd have his share of big losses as well, they happen to every manager now and again.
  20. Mar 12, 2018

    Suedesi Full Member

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    Football is a game of small details. If the ref gave a penalty for that Fellaini/Mane tangle, I'm sure the majority here would have lamented 2 dropped points, and directly blamed Mourinho directly for replacing Rashford with Fellaini. But we won, so Mourinho is hailed as a genius.

    Goes to show that the manager's perception can be hugely affected by small details, which can or cannot be under his control.
  21. Mar 12, 2018

    VancouverUtdFan Banned

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  22. Mar 12, 2018

    Listar Full Member

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    My point is SAF expansive style versus certain teams gave us much grief. Liverpool, City and Barcelona finals come into mind. When he was pragmatic, like the semi final against barcelona we won. Mourinho tried a bit adventurous in his heavy lost against Chelsea, I doubt he will repeat that anytime soon.

    And contrary to belief, what was shown in second half against Liverpool was not what Mourinho wanted. As commented by the commenters, he was on the sideline trying to push his defence higher up the field, but our players seems to be staying deep by their own decision. We let Liverpool back into the game because the players went into their shell of safety first by playing deep, not because Mourinho ask them to park the bus in our own box.
  23. Mar 12, 2018

    Akshay Moderator Staff

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    I cannot understand any of the discussion during the videos, but the text seems to suggest we played less passes in the central midfield area to deny Liverpool the chance to press us and win the ball back in dangerous situations? Relying on Google Translate so I'm undoubtedly missing some.

    Expansive football means high risk, high reward. We had some amazing big wins against rivals too like the 8-2 vs Arsenal. And we arguably lost the title in 11/12 by playing too pragmatically at City.

    I don't disagree with your point about the second half v Liverpool.
  24. Mar 12, 2018

    Womp idiot

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    To be fair, that result was against a severely weakened woeful Arsenal team. Also, it was Arsenal.
  25. Mar 12, 2018

    haram Full Member

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    We took away the space for Salah to run into by playing a narrow back four (no space imbetween CB and fullback) and removed the scenario where Liverpool could press and win the ball in midfield. As a result they were completely nullified. Masterclass from Jose.

    In terms of our goals, Liverpool dont really play with a DM and Can doesn’t realise to help Lovren with Lukaku, Lukaku obviously dominates Lovren, and TAA is more interested in positioning himself to attack than defend from fullback. Jose identified all of their strengths and weaknesses and we executed it perfectly.
  26. Mar 12, 2018

    Skills Snitch

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    The last 2 games have been huge. I haven't felt this kind of momentum behind us for a long, long time. Really hope we ride on it with a big finish from now till the end of the season.
  27. Mar 12, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Last 3 games, Chelsea home game was also huge. Think players will have spring in their step after last 3 games, come back wins against Chelsea and Palace, home win against Liverpool.

    Next 2 games are also very important as one is CL and other is FA cup, the only trophy we have good chance of winning.
  28. Mar 12, 2018

    Utdfrom2002 Full Member

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    Some great results in the past few weeks. But, like Jose himself mentioned, Sevilla and Brighton games are more important. Hope he can come up with a masterclass against Sevilla.
  29. Mar 12, 2018

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Im not worried nor care by the way we play at this moment.

    Jose is a veteran manager, his livelihood relies on result. No matter how expansive he plays at the end of the day if the result are bad he'll lose his job. On the contrary no matter how bad we play as long as the results are in his favor he'll keep his job.

    Managers are in charge of every game, the buck stops with him at the end of day, if he won then he won, at best his detractors can only grumble. If he lost then he'll get the full brunt of the knives. In this occasion he won, so fair play to him we need to keep our complain and let jose enjoy his day. Manages gamble everyday, lost and they're crucified win they get glorified. There's no two way about it, everything else is if and buts
  30. Mar 12, 2018

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Tbf it's a game of 2 teams. We're being pinned down. You can only do so much, just like liverpool can only do so much when we defend so tight and discipline.

    It takes 2 to tango.
  31. Mar 12, 2018

    TheRedDevil'sAdvocate Full Member

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    Liverpool rely mainly on two things in order to create chances: High press and clever runs in behind which are initiated from the half-spaces. The former tactic allows them to keep players high up the pitch, retain possession in the opponent's half and enforce their own match rhythm. The latter is their main attacking plan. In order to make it work they use Firmino's movement in between the lines and his ability to play neat one-twos with the two wingers who almost always cut inside.

    Mourinho's low block defence aims to shut down any pockets of space between the lines. If you noticed Firmino struggled to find any kinds of space and he was forced to drop very deep just to get on the ball. The fact that Mane/Salah were constantly looking to create pockets of space in the half spaces "allowed" us to retain a very narrow shape at the back. Now, Klopp didn't want these two out-wide so much as he wanted to create space for Firmino to link up with them. So, his tactical decision was for Milner/Oxlade to drive Matic/McTominay wide. Mourinho's immediate response was for our wingers to track these movements (in what often looked like a back-six) so that the two pivots would stay centrally. His tactical decision was to replace a winger with a defensive minded midfielder in order to help the team retain its shape and defend well the central channels.

    It's true that we invite much pressure under these circumstances and we put too much faith in our defenders to soak it all up. Against Liverpool, it has worked four times already because, despite their attacking prowess, they don't have many tools at their disposal against a very tight and composed defensive plan with 10 men behind the ball. They need pockets of space like the drought needs the rain. They don't get much from long shots, they don't get much creativity" off the dribble" (especially now that Coutinho is not an option for them) and they don't get much from crosses.

    Our problem is that it probably won't work that well against City who have more quality on the pitch. It won't work until we learn to make better use of the fact that we have all our players in our third and start hitting teams on the counter instead of constantly hoofing the ball. Liverpool's problems occur when they face good and very compact defences or when they play against sides who can match or even surpass their attacking quality.

    TL/DR version: Mourinho sets United tactically to cancel Klopp's tactics. When the plan works, Liverpool are forced to find moments of individual brilliance. As a team that needs open spaces, they don't get many of those moments. When they did find them (like Coutinho's magical shot from distance last season) in the last 4 games, there was usually DdG to deal with them.
  32. Mar 12, 2018

    PaulScholes99 New Member

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    Sounds logical and i can follow your mind, but is that really everything? Why do "smaller" teams only manage to defend Liverpool that rarely this season? It's obvious that it is harder for them to play a defense with more individual quality, but i'd say that our defense isn't even close to be as good as our offense (individually). So i believe that they are a bit more carefully against us as they know that our attacking players can always hurt their (bad) defense and when they don't play with that much risk they are - through the reasons you talked about - unable to create much chances.

    I was a bit scared of this game because i thought Liverpool has found solutions against deep standing defences, especially the last weeks they were really good and created a lot of chances. Also last year their problem was mostly not creating chances but converting them, like us.
  33. Mar 12, 2018

    TheRedDevil'sAdvocate Full Member

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    It goes without saying that they approach the big games with more caution. I think everybody does that more or less. Even Klopp's games against Guardiola often need something drastic to be turned into an end to end contest. This season it was an early red card at the Etihad and 10 minutes when City had lost all concentration at Anfield.

    I still believe that for a team that can create so many chances they tend to drop a lot of points against the midtable opposition. And half of the time (Burnley, WBA, Everton at home and Newcastle, Swansea away or Leicester in the League Cup) it's because they can't break them down easily. And i'm not talking about missing a couple of big chances because that's natural when a much better team faces a mediocre one. In these games they had the ball but they couldn't force their own tempo, they were completely stuck in traffic. They couldn't break down the opponent through raising the tempo and putting the defence under constant threat. The chances that were not converted is a tricky statistic. It didn't tell the whole story for us either. We were not a good team, we couldn't play at a higher tempo with confidence and our best games came when we managed to be rock solid at the back (Europa final for example).

    As for us, our defensive discipline is much better with McTominay next to Matic. The youngster isn't anything special as a footballer but his positioning is not only very good for a player of his age and lack of experience but it is also very intelligent. Last game showed that it's not easy to drag him out of position with off the ball movement. His positional sense when defending off the ball on Saturday often reminded me of Carrick. With Pogba in there, we were always willing to take a risk tactically in the square just in front of our box that consists of the two CBs and the two CMs which is essential for Mourinho's plan.

    Last Saturday we looked more threatening than usual against Liverpool because we had planned to attack Liverpool's right side (our left) and create 2v2 situations with Lukaku/Rashford against Lovren/Alexander-Arnold. Despite what people think of Mourinho's attacking plan, he's always been good at spotting and exploiting an opposition's weak spots at the back.
  34. Mar 12, 2018

    SCP Full Member

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    The basic idea is that, the videos basically consist with the first showing how Liverpool likes to organize and apply their offensive transitions, while the other 2 videos show how Carvalhal first and Mourinho later denied Liverpool the space they need.

    This is why Carvalhal analogie between the Ferrari in the London traffic might sound a joke, but actually makes sense.

    Then they use those 2 examples to show what Conceição should have done in the first leg vs them, even if this isn't proactive football in a certain way is the better way to block Liverpool.

    Just found interesting they praised the strategy applied because they are more associated with the type of football played by Guardiola, Klopp, Sarri, Paulo Fonseca or others.

    At least they are not fundamentalists regarding their analysis.

    Anyway this is viable for this particular opponent, it can't be done every week.
  35. Mar 12, 2018

    Akshay Moderator Staff

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    Thanks for the explanation. I do remember now that analogy that Carvalhal made. It'll be interesting to see how Klopp responds to this the next time we play Liverpool, I cannot imagine he won't change anything. He doesn't strike me as being as stubborn as Wenger, but maybe I'm wrong. Also if they improve on certain defensive positions it won't be as easy to exploit their backline as it was for us on Saturday.
  36. Mar 13, 2018

    Bastian Full Member

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    I'm really starting to enjoy his press conferences of late. When someone pointed out he'd won 2 CL trophies, he said "I did?". Just like when he was saying he had never been accused of match fixing, whilst talking about Conte and someone pointed out Conte had been accused in Italy, he said "he was? not me". And again, yesterday, when it was pointed out that he's the last manager to have won the CL outside of the top 4 leagues, he said "good achievement". I think he enjoys the criticism he's getting in the media as his record backs him up quite easily. He's on good form.
  37. Mar 13, 2018

    Theonas Full Member Scout

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    I really don't understand this line of argument about pointing to some Fergie precedent. Fergie was not perfect, far from it. If we argue that is the greatest manager ever, it is not because he was the master at everything, it is because his strengths far outweighed his weaknesses, arguably more than anyone else.

    Fergie did play conservatively many times in Europe, especially during the Queiroz years. But what should not be forgotten is that it was for him more out of necessity and admitting weakness than some ideological belief. Just look at what he says about our home game against Barcelona in 2008 for example. We were as defensive as any Mourinho side is, it gave us one of our most memorable wins and eventually led to us winning the CL. Yet, the great man expresses how a Manchester United side should never be made to play like that especially at home. Go forward and in our future meetings with them, his alpha ego comes out again and he sets up in a final against them with two strikers and a two men midfield that has Giggs in it, an absolute suicide if you want to actually set up defensively. After the game he goes on to express how that's how he would like us to play.

    The point is it is true a lot of Fergie teams played football that is not too dissimilar to Mourinho, especially in Europe. That was however a sign of us coming up short, not some master plan. The ideal was always to win on the front foot playing pro active football and being faithful to our ego as a big club. Fergie did not always achieve that ideal and especially during the Queiroz years, was forced and/or convinced to compromise. Obviously we can never criticize him for that because what he has given the club dwarfs any possible shortcoming. But we are within our rights to criticize anyone else who falls short in that area and who does not have the massive and unique credit Fergie had.
  38. Mar 13, 2018

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    I do not equate mourinho with the great saf.

    But let the man do his job. Saf wasnt perfect, took him 6 years and the grand sum of 26 years to take us where we are now.

    Jose is only 1.5 year in, give the man time to install his vision properly.

    An apple to apple comparison isnt jose now vs saf 5 years ago, saf also doesnt start on fifth gear. Took him a while to shape us into what we were back then.

    If anyone can shed a light on fergie first 2 years that would be lovely.
  39. Mar 13, 2018

    Maradona10 Duncan Castles

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    Whenever you Doubt mourinho watch this.
  40. Mar 13, 2018

    Samid follows Pogue around, fixing his images

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    Poor man's Frank de Boer.
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