Discussion in 'Player Performances Forum' started by Suedesi, Aug 9, 2017.
Who are these people please?
I'm itching to have a go at them.
Absolutely true, we where better in big games under LVG because our ability to keep the ball helped against teams that didnt pack the bus.
Even in the big games we failed to win, we where dominant.
One of our best game against liverpool at anfield was under LVG, we dominated the game.
It's just so strange. When we used to play Mourinho's first Chelsea incarnation, we were usually second best all over the pitch. Still remember Joe Cole's goal against us.
For some reason Jose has gone entirely weak in such matches, thinking he needs to nullify instead of imposing ourselves. Our first XI is simply not that bad, we can and should be playing our football instead of being reactionary.
We finally have the midfield that can control any match on the day.
i'm quietly confident about this season.
I don't think he's gotten more conservative anymore than he was before in big games. The big difference last season was not only our defenders and sometimes midfielders not helping in attacking play, but they were hindering us in the buildup and we didn't have much of the ball as a result. A consistent back four and Smalling not having a heart attack every time he touches the ball will help. It's probably why we signed Bailly and Lindelof despite the defensive talents of Smalling and Jones.
Bluntly put, he slyly acknowledges his current squad is inferior in quality and goes for solidity. It may not be stylish but you need results at this stage of rebuilding, you just need to escape the sands of mediocrity and grow a winning spirit again, whatever it takes.
I listed our entire Europa League campaign that stretched throughout the whole season. Considering we never faced a class team in the entire competition we barely had any matches where we straight outplayed anyone. If that isn't a testimony of how mediocre we were in the majority of our season then you should really go re-watch the season.
Already seeing you ctrl+v the same response to other people how we had 10 bad games from 65 in the whole season. Well if you truly believe that then you're someone who's well and beyond worth reasoning with.
The season we had before Mourihno is irrelevant. We're judging him on what he has done. Should Jose be excused for the previous managers? And the excuse for Van Gaal was Moyes? And the excuse for the manager after Jose will be the previous 3 managers? Tell me at what point does this end?
Jose is a world class manager who spend heavily in his first season. People hire him to get results fast. He bought absolute class of players in Mikhi, Pogba and Zlatan who should have transcended our attack instantly because you don't have to wait for either to deliver in the stages of their careers.
You said we had a problem scoring goals and that Jose clearly improved us in that regard when he clearly didn't. Talk about contradicting yourself.
I have no idea what am I talking about when reffering to Feyenoord and Fenerbahce sarcastically as giants? Both teams are nothing compared to us. Nothing. Zero. The NL league have plummeted so hard and teams like Feyenoord have not been relevant since forever. Don't even have to comment on the come to Besiktac rivals. Literally have to google the last time these teams have done something relevant.
Winning a cup especially the one like the Europa League is a walk in the park when you have a good team. Ask Sevilla who are apparently a class above us as well. Implying we've faced tough opponents in our run is completely laughable and incomparable to any other year because all of our opposition was absolutely bang average yet for some reason we struggled immensely in the majority of our matches.
Any competent team that had our run would be putting all of those teams by a bunch of goals without breaking too much of a sweat. That's the harsh and honest truth about how much we've regressed and while Jose had his glimpses all over the place we still remained largely negative throughout the season. People cherry pick short streak of matches or single matches like the Chelsea OT game as if that's how our entire season went. I'm surprised nobody mentioned our unbeaten run as a testimony of how good we were
We shouldn't use it as an excuse, i pointed it so you can have a better perspective. Some things can't be fixed over night, if you couldn't see the improvement in attack over LVG's way of playing and creating 1-2 chances per game than maybe you should rewatch some of the matches. I pointed out that we created a lot of chances and there are lot of signs of improvement yet you use one point against the other without even quoting me properly. I said the team has problem scoring goals, because even last year after the improvement under Jose it wasn't good enough, but it was an improvement.
And yes you have no idea what are you talking about. Cup competitions don't work like that pal. If that was the case Sir Alex Ferguson wouldn't finish his career with 2 Champion League titles, instead he would have won 8. The year before us Liverpool beat us, they beat Dortmund and lost to Sevilla.
Don't underestimate teams because we are Manchester United, for 3 years we were in dire situation, then we win the Europa League and we had a better season that most our rivals (except Chelsea), and you do is whine and see only the negatives.
Errrr and how does cup competitions work like? You're telling me we struggled versus absolute shite teams because that's how it always is in cup competitions? How convenient to use that baffling excuse simply to distract from the fact that we've been completely dire. Awful attempt of an excuse considering we played cannon fodder all tournament. We never faced anyone close to Liverpool, Dortmund or Sevilla. Also the fact that we think it's acceptable to lose to any of those 3 says enough on how far the bar have fallen.
You play and beat what's in front of you. Teams like Ajax and Anderlecht beat teams like Roma, Lyon. Football doesn't work that way, in cup matches anyone can beat anyone, it was a good achievement and got us CL. There no point in arguing with you mate, i already wasted couple of posts that i shouldn't have. Cheers!
Think it will be a grinded out 1 -0 win myself
I'm not taking anything away from LvG's famous victories, but it is ironic that the same people who bash Jose for playing pragmatic football against teams in the EL (a competition we ended up winning which justified the means), hype up LvG's big game record which itself was boosted by circumstances.
We have to take note of the fact that LvG was up against Rodgers and Pellegrini, with Poch just settling in at Spurs. Whereas now we have Conte, Klopp, Guardiola and Poch managing our rivals.
Let us see the big games LvG managed us in:
- First season: The smash and grab at the Emirates was largely due to Arsenal's wasteful finishing, I remember they could have dicked us 4-1 but fluffed a lot of chances. The 3-0 against Liverpool was again due to de Gea's heroics and our clinical finishing (3 shots, 3 goals). The famous 3 game streak was commendable, but it has now been proven that it was nothing more than LvG accidentally stumbling upon a formation with players in form. It was no triumph of possession football.
Second season: LvG won against Arsenal 3-2 with kids, but it was more down to the form of the kids rather than pure tactics. 1-0 win against Spurs was by a Walker own goal. The 3-1 against Liverpool at home was due to Rodgers being down and out -- he was almost broken at the time, nearing the sack. The 3-0 at Goodison was class, but the 1-0 at Anfield with Klopp incharge was pure luck - a deflected goal. The 1-0 at the Etihad was again due to Pellegrini being unable to motivate his players.
Conclusion is that, circumstances helped LvG. We must note that whenever LvG came up against a top 6 team at the peak of its form and in full strength, he always lost. Examples include how Jose's Chelsea beat us 1-0 in LvG's first season, and how Arsenal and Spurs dicked us 3-0 at the Emirates and the Lane. Liverpool humiliated us in the Europa and we didnt even put up a fight in the return leg. So, whenever the opposition was in terrific form (Arsenal/Spurs) or had a half decent manager (Klopp), LvG was sussed out, bar the 3 game streak in his first season. If our big game tactics were so good, we should have beaten those teams when they were on a ruthless streak as well.
Possession football played a part in winning those games, but it was not the only factor.
Note that I am not taking anything away from LvG. A win's a win, and as he was in-charge, he deserves full credit for the games we won. But the same people who big up his big game record downplay Jose's EL tactics ignoring the fact that we won the competition. So, if we focus only on giving credit to LvG for winning big games without seeing the circumstances, we should focus only on Jose winning EL and not the tactics.
All the matches you listed from the Europe league campaign are from the last 3 months, as we played Rostov in March after the Bournemouth game, not stretched through the whole season. Since every post you write proves you actually watched nothing of the
last season or your memory is so short or you like rewriting history then there's no need to discuss any farther.
And ctrl+v is much better than writing a very long post that proves nothing.
Very attacking line-up.
Similar to most home games last season. Let's hope its not more of the same though.
Even if Joe Hart has a stormer.
I think were getting more of a balance and what ive wanted to see last season. 4231 for home games esp when teams might be out to frustrate us. It gives us more options going forward (and with Matic there) it allows Pogba to get closer to their box to create for them.
I think we will see 433 for top6 teams and some away games (esp Europe).
His use of subs today was good, but it will be more of a test when we are drawing or losing to see how we cope and change things up.
Got everything right today.
Was just about to post this.
Well today went ok...
He bought Matic and Matic didn't give West Ham a chance. Most important thing Mourinho did regarding today.
He knows how to build a team.
To be fair, most were expecting a 4-3-3 with Matic, Herrera and Pogba as midfielders. Takes balls to not play United's player of the year for the new signing.
Interesting line-up. Surprised me as I expected Matic, Herrera and Pogba to start throughout the season.
We looked like a team that could win a lot of games against modest PL opponents.
Mourinho's second season syndrome is no coincidence...
That was interesting. Having both Mata and Miki on the pitch was superior to Herrera in midfield so it made sense once 15 minutes or so had passed. Not expected though as you say.
I genuinely can't believe we went for Moyes over Mou in 2013.
When you look at our performance today, it was so classically Mourinho. How could anyone in positions of power at United not want that?
Not the same cloth as SAF though.
A+ performance by JM and the core is being built as we speak.
No more revolving doors at every position. José knows what he's doing and he's finally bringing positional stability to the squad.
Got everything right today, maybe Martial on a bit earlier but even that wasnt a bad decision.
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Let us see the players and the coach for at least the next 10 games before we can judge them.One game doesn't mean anything at all. I can even be lucky and be man of the match on any given day.
Lets us not forget the fact also that Mouriniho only technically bought one player ( a possible bit younger carrick in Matic.) Lukaku is a direct replacement for Zlatan who in my view will score similar or bit more goals than him. if we finished 6th place with Zlatan , it is not gonna be much different with Lukaku unless other players produce.this is the season where Mouriniho will be severely tested.If I am not mistaken he mentioned that he needs three transfer windows to win the PL.
I guess most will be cautiously optimistic. Playing a 2 man midfield is brave, and well judged given how much we dominated. But WHU were absolutely terrible. We have a relatively gentle start to the season, so let's see where we are at the international break. He did bring on Fellaini of course
We finally play like a team compared to many matches last season where the players play like they never train together before.
Mourinho signings again are spot on with players like Zlatan, Baily, Mhki, Pogba, Lukaku, Matic and hopefully Lindelof will come good (hope to add Perisic). He knows how to build a team. With the rate he is going, our team will be the finished product by next summer transfer window to challenge for the EPL and CL.
Hope that come the end of the season I'll get to pull up some of the posts in this thread prior to the first match and have a good laugh
Wrong. Lukaku is a different player to Zlatan and that will affect the whole team. He draws defenders towards him, leaving space for other players. So be will have more of an impact than Zlatan. Also Lukaku scores against the lower teams, he is pretty clinical too, unlike Zlatan last year. Matic will be a huge signing, he finally brings balance and stability to the team. Players like Mihi, Pogba and Rashers now have more experience playing with each other, so they'll improve this season.
Do I expect us to win the league? Probably not. But we'll surely challenge for the title and surely won't finish 6th this season.
To be specific, both draw defenders to themselves and leave space for others. Key difference is Lukakummhas speed which he stays on shoulder with last defender, & run in behind more which much it harder for the defender to push up to stop our midfield runner.
Zlatan created more pocket of space and space for the wide attacker to attack. We had problem with Rashford being best fit, but not prolific enough. Martial didn't make enough run. Lingard lack quality. Mata is slow. Micky was hot & cold, and more important prefer the role of playmaker than being forward. Lukaku actually is better fit for our team / the quantity of players.
Yeah, players like Mata, Mikhi and Pogba can pick out his runs. He will always keep defenders on the back foot. Also with him, we can be deadly in counter attacks.
In his second spell at Chelsea he used the first season to indentify the holes in his squad and corrected them perfectly in his second summer transfer window. Meanwhile, we were spending big on exciting players but still ended up with a woefully unbalanced squad. I remember looking at Chelsea's transfer window with more than a little envy. Early days yet, but this feels like that Chelsea transfer window. It's not perfect as we still have a couple of weaknesses but it's very, very close to a completely balanced squad. Close enough to mount a genuine title challenge? I believe so.
Remember the doom-and-gloom when we lost 2-1 to Madrid in the Super Cup in a game which we were a Rashford finish away from extending to ET and potentially penalties?
Doesn't seem nearly as terrible or the end of the world as it did then with all the overreactions lol. José is transitioning the club very well and things will only begin to look more positive as the remaining pieces are acquired over the next few transfer windows. Funny to think we put up a bigger fight than Barca did over these 2 legs and people began questioning Mourinho for no reason at all
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