Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by sugar_kane, Apr 17, 2019.
Go home, you are drunk
Jose has some magic to make people lose their shit over him despite being a coward who gave up when things didn't go his way. Only had half a billion to spend, how the poor fella managed.
Rather harsh tone in some of the exchanges here. My view: Woodward is a low life egomaniac who treated all our managers abominably especially LVG and Mourinho. Mourinho is not above criticism; but this is a great club, with a virus. And the name of the virus is not Paul Pogba.
Why does this shit keep getting bumped who cares if he is right or wrong the man had an opportunity to prove his worth and failed miserably. Had to say this before I put it on ignore.
The problem is that we haven't moved on. We have moved backward.
Minus 19 points last season, minus 32 this season
I fully understand that Jose can be a divisive manager.
But my contention is that far from Jose throwing players under a bus, the clear evidence is that it was the club and in particular the the players who threw him under the bus. His frustration was there for everyone to see.
Oh and by the way they are doing it to Ole as well.
Not weird at all, that.
Keep the excuses for Mourinho coming.
But, but he wasn’t backed. The excuses for him are outrageous.
Great post. Couldn’t agree more.
Anyone who couldn’t appreciate this and see this has an extremely narrow view of the world of football. You can not just focus on the manager and a few players. The environment, the conditions, the track record, data points, etc all come into play.
They wanted him to be allowed to buy another 10 players who would stagnate and eventually fall out under him,the mental gymnastics from his supporters when it comes to Jose is akin to a legitimate cult of personality. Everything has to be black or white
It's hard for some to admit they were terribly wrong. Easier to twist the narrative.
Did he do this deliberately to force the boards hand to give him more money to buy players or he hit self destruct as he was told no more signings work with what you have ?
We'll probably never know mate.
Wouldn't surprise me if he did it to get the sack because he thought/knew we were going nowhere.
Lets try to be specific here. Did the manager fai
Is it possible to improve a team which can or doesnt want to improve? If not, how can one expect that Mourinho would improve them if the same players have shown the same flaws under different managers?
Ole can not be expected to be a wonder doctor that is true, but you can expect him to ‘improve’ the team or to atleast create a system, whereby his players which suit his vision can flourish. If we can not expect a United manager to improve a team or to be a good coach and next season becomes another debacle, it will be groundhog day all over again. It will be another mistake from the board, to have given an inexperienced manager a contract while knowing he is not a ‘particular good coach.
People are judging Mourinho. He won the Europa league in his first season and finished second in his second season, with 81 points, the highest finish post Sir Alex. Those are objective statistics. Now when we speak about the factors which attributed to his sacking, we can agree that his antics didnt help. However in hindsight fans are starting to realize that there was truth in his statements. Fans were calling his statement of him not knowing if players are caring about the football absurd, but statements like these have now come to light yet again under a different manager. Was he right in publically calling his players out ? One can argue about that, likewise, is Ole correct in publically telling the media that he doesnt know if all the players will be here this season?
I dont believe that backing narrative was ‘bullshit’. What was the fee Leicester asked? Was it a Van Dijk? How do we know other defenders werent requested? I remember an interview of Neville saying that jose wanted a defender and the board rejected this. Was Neville selling a ‘bullshit’ narrative?
We can not definitively say that Mourinho failed, he won the Europa League and finished second in his second season. What was he expected to achieve with this specific team? The title? That is unrealistic. Champions league qualification? That was a realistic target, however as you can see under Ole, the team didnt have the right attitude to achieve that objective. I’d claim that he failed to bring the ‘united way’, in stead of the negative tactica of defense, but that yet again falls on the board when they hired him. You cant expect one of the most succesfull trainers in football to change his ways later in his career.
Your first question is a straw man and it's not even remotely true, these aren't the same players and it would be quite exceptional if somehow +25 players coming from different places were for some reason all unwilling to improve. Logic dictates to look at the common denominator and in this case it's the coaching staff and its quality, none of the managers that we brought were at there personal best. Some players may not be good enough and I'm convinced that it's the case for a substantial part but not all of them, even McTominay was badly struggling this season until the last months.
As for the rest, you simply ignored the defenders that I mentioned and said themselves that they decided to not join after being handed offers and the only reason we talk about Maguire is because of the negotiation rumours.
And of course he failed, he took the 5th team in the PL, spent 400m and was the 6th team in the league the day of his sacking at 8-10 points of 4th. He failed to durably improve the team and was acting like a prat, the last part being the most important for me, because I didn't necessarily expect perfection and linear improvement but I most definitely expected him to not act terribly and not be a nuisance himself.
Exactly. Spending 200 million wouldn't have changed anything, except we would have been 200 million poorer and more deadwood added.
These are definitely the majority of the players, minus Fred and Fellaini (could have forgotten some here), but De Gea Jones, smalling, Shaw, young, Matic, Pogba, Lindgard, Lukaku, Mata, Martial, Sanchez were all here, so i am not so sure how that is a strawman argument or ‘not remotely true’. You even mentioned that ‘some players may not be good enough, and i’m convinced that its the case for a substantial part but not all of them. This comes back to the point of how can you then expect from a manager to improve a team which arent good enough to substiantally improve enough to challenge for the top spots?
Yes Boatang and Godin were indeed targets that rejected United. However, we dont know how many defenders were requested. Here is a quote from Neville;
‘From a board perspective, it has been messy over the last couple of weeks.""I think of the briefing Ed Woodward gave journalists ahead of the Leicester game, where he explained why United weren't going to buy centre-backs and why Jose was not being backed, trying to justify to the media why he's not backed his manager."“It's too late for that, Mourinho has already been given a contract extension - back him until the end."
(Source skysports, august 2018).
Is Neville selling a fake narrative too?
Furthermore, when we speak about ‘failing’, what exactly was the target? What is the comparison? To whom? To LvG and Moyes? Yes, the first season Mourinho finished 5th, having missed the CL based on goal difference to City, with a european trophy (the only one missing in United’s history). The second season United finished with 81 points, the highest finish post Sir Alex. The pre season debacle started and it all went downhill from there. The antics were now public and the player-manager conflict kept dragging on until the sacking. Many fans said that Mourinho was to blame, but they are now starting to realize that there was ‘some truth’ in Mourinho’s statements when he publically criticized the team. Similarly to Ole, telling the media that he is not sure if all players will be here next season. As you stated, its logical to look at the common denominator and that is the fact there are rotten fruits in the dressing room, negatively influencing the team and hence team results.
I appreciate the dialogue!
I don't understand that paragraph a third of the players mentioned have been bought by Mourinho, Smalling and De Gea improved under LVG and Martial was actually good. As for the dressing room, can you name the rotten fruits?
De Gea actually improved under Sir Alex gradually. Smalling had that ‘mike’ moment (under LvG) when he was in a good spell. Shaw and Lindgard had good spells as they had too under Mourinho. The other players Lindelof, Bailly, Fred, Pogba, Lukaku, Sanchez were indeed bought under Mourinho’s reign. The point i am making is that you stated that you believe that a substantial part of players are just nog good enough. How then can one expect a manager to improve a team which ‘just isnt good enough’? Werent the results then merely a logical consequence of this? This happened under Ole as well, players not showing the right attitude and mentality to push through. In regards to your last question. Do you believe there are rotten fruits in the team?
This is not an argument we are merely expressing different perspectives,which is fine. I try to hang on in terms of the english grammer, considering i am not english. Dutch people and the english language dont go along in harmony as they say
Mourinho was right that the squad is shite. BUT he was so wrong going out in the media and criticising everyone, pointing fingers. Also, let’s not forget that he significantly contributed to having a weak squad. Fred? Sanchez for these wages? Oh come on
José looking hella sexy these days, he's refreshed, Man United are the mess he said they were and he got suitors.
He was right. He will prove it when he manages a proper team again. He got second place with 81 points and won the Europa with the shitest squad ever.
Good luck with that.
Has he? It looks like he's going to start the season without a club job for the first time in ages, unless he drops down a tier of course...
My point is he's in a better place all around than when he got fired. And much quicker than I thought he would.
Really? When you're being paid 17 mil for being a failure then its easy to get back up quickly.
Btw to your earlier comment about Jose having Suitors. Who? Heard he rejected Benfica and the rest he was linked with hired other managers or gave extensions.
A cynic much, money don't make everything you know, José professional pride took a beating. And I'm making what I consider to be a fair assumption about the suitors based on his employment record.
Professional pride? He gave up when he didn't get to sign some average old guys (clear to see in pre season). We were 6th, 8 points behind 4th, while poch got no one but kept them in top 4.
So just assumptions then.
I still think Jose should have been allowed to finish the season. But one of his biggest faults was in not signing players capable of showing leadership. This was and is a key problem for United the past few seasons.
United has become a collection of over-paid signings, not a team. Jose has responsibility for that. United needs a strong spine and this is something that Ole most certainly knows. He will begin with the backbone and improve from there.
It was a brilliant achievement- LVG did much good work too. The SAF hangover and the Moyes fiasco, ideas about “The United Way” all helped create a toxic dressing room. With just a little help from certain players and the decisions and interventions of the Glazers’ “CEO”
His player choices were being disputed by the football “expert” Woodward
You are doing well with your language. I agree with most of your points too, and very much appreciate your civil and friendly tone.
No, he made the squad worse!!
Doesn't matter whether he was "right" (it's hardly going to be black and white) about the state of the players (forget the state of Woodward for the time being).
The story he's trying to push is that he overachieved in difficult circumstances, and more specifically that he overachieved in his second season with a subpar team.
His problem is that this isn't how United came across at all. What exactly did Mourinho do? He didn't turn the players into a well drilled unit, that's obvious. Nor did he coach any individual player into performing consistently well. And he sure as feck didn't lift the team with good vibrations.
What, then? He somehow micro managed individual players into performing on separate occasions - but not consistently? Even if this were true, I'd hardly call it great management. Unusual management - unprecedented, even - yes, so he'd be due some credit for the novelty of the thing if nothing else.
Look at Leicester in their fairytale season. Overall solid, well drilled, doing the basics right most of the time, sticking to a working formula that isn't overly complicated. That's how a team punching above their weight actually look like. United looked nothing like that in Mourinho's second season.
Its not like he's being offered any jobs out there. The only time he wasn't booted out of a club was at Inter and even they don't want him back now.
Poch kept working away and did his best. I think he is hungry for success (he hasn't won any trophies).
Jose on the other hand didn't get the players he wanted, so gave up. I actually think he was looking to get sacked. Some of his performances were so apathetic that only someone who wants to be sacked would behave that way.
In any case, we need to move on. Woodward, the man who demotivated Jose, is still here and will continue to use managers as fall guys, when they fail to get 4th place.
Mourinho fans are really deluded.
Not surprised to see @haram is the top poster in this thread
Separate names with a comma.