Jose's tactics at United| Acrophobia discussion

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Treble, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. Sep 13, 2017

    Rusholme Ruffian Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2017
    Messages:
    793
    Location:
    Cooking MCs like a pound of bacon
    Hey, if you are literally the only person getting vexed about something then the chances are it's probably something not worth getting vexed about in the first place.
  2. Sep 13, 2017

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    13,540
    But is is, to the point of cherry picking players to make comparisons to prove his point. I think you should refresh yourself by reading what he has said both in his OP and in his replies.

    You don't think it's nonsensical that he's decided Pogba struggles in tight spaces yet uses Kante as an example to illustrate his point about size, really?

    Read the OP again, see what he is actually asking, then read the replies and then his replies. I think you'll find the party that is guilty of making absolute claims will be the one you are so vehemently defending. He is quite literally saying Pogba and Matic won't cope with pressing because they are tall!
  3. Sep 13, 2017

    12OunceEpilogue Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2016
    Messages:
    3,031
    Location:
    Trafford/Wigan
    I see no reason why Pogba and Matic can't work together.

    This is key. The height of our players aside we saw against Stoke we have a tactical question on ours hands regarding our midfield. Herrera looked all at sea and Matic and Pogba struggled to get into they game too. While you could say Herrera was rusty and Matic and Pogba (indeed the whole team barring DDG really) had an off day it was telling Herrera and Matic looked to be trying to play the same role and getting in each other's way.

    As the season goes on and as prtk says we start playing top teams we'll know more about this, but it will be interesting to see which combination Jose prefers for which game/situation.
  4. Sep 13, 2017

    Moonwalker Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,903
    I envy your conformism.
  5. Sep 13, 2017

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    88,190
    Location:
    "like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
    It's clearly a risible assumption though. They've both achieved great success at the highest level. They didn't do this by falling apart as soon as they come up against the revolutionary tactic of being, shock, horror, pressed.
  6. Sep 13, 2017

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    4,554
    Hahhaha!!

    Petit was what? 6.2? Vieira 6.4?

    Yep, that 1.5 inch makes ALL the difference :lol:
  7. Sep 13, 2017

    The Bloody-Nine Full Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2017
    Messages:
    1,050
    Defending an argument for multiple pages, an argument that, by your own admission, you disagree with is remarkable contrariness.
  8. Sep 13, 2017

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    88,190
    Location:
    "like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
    Of course it's a fecking coincidence! Central midfielders that combine their height with their technical ability are few and far between. So finding two of them in the same team is obviously very unlikely. Inferring from this that they will definitely fall to pieces when pressed is just daft though.
  9. Sep 13, 2017

    roonster09 Full Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2009
    Messages:
    5,230
    Comical stuff isn't it :lol:

    See how tall Pogba is, Chelsea don't have any tall players even though Bakayoko is only 1 inch smaller than Pogba.
  10. Sep 13, 2017

    Moonwalker Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,903
    It's very hard for me to argue against something like that, considering my personal preference for tall players, and the fact that I think our midfield is great, buuut - his argument is that in some pinnacle of the season key match, there's a deficiency there in terms of technical ability that would be exploited by a more nimble midfield. This is true or isn't regardless of how decorated and accomplished Matic and Pogba are.
  11. Sep 13, 2017

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    4,554
    It's maddening pigeonholing of the highest order.
  12. Sep 13, 2017

    Rusholme Ruffian Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2017
    Messages:
    793
    Location:
    Cooking MCs like a pound of bacon
    Not conformism, just self-awareness.
  13. Sep 13, 2017

    Treble Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    6,112
    Petit was 6,1. Is that the only example of a great team?
  14. Sep 13, 2017

    cyberman Full Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    9,394
    French national team were tall as hell when they dominated?
  15. Sep 13, 2017

    Gandalf Greyhame Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2013
    Messages:
    2,823
    Location:
    Herrera 16/17 > Kante 16/17
  16. Sep 13, 2017

    Treble Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    6,112
    Well, I think that it isn't a coincidence. No one said that they will fal to pieces but that they may struggle to control the game. The empirical verification/refutation is coming soon. Obuiously, many on here are cocksure that Pogba and Matic is a great midfield duo and will fare well in the big games. That's natural for many reasons. I have doubts. Maybe they are daft after all.
  17. Sep 13, 2017

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    4,554
    2 great teams actually.

    But.. Petit was just 5cm short of your imaginary "too tall" line, so you really believe that 5cm makes all the difference? Petit and Vieira WERE fantastic together and Pogba is a better player than Petit, and much more technical. Agreed?

    You don't think Vieira and Pogba would have been incredible for example? Why? Because Pogba would need to be 9cm shorter to fit into your pigeonhole?

    You surely see it makes zero sense? Especially when Pogba is a once in a generation talent.
  18. Sep 13, 2017

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    88,190
    Location:
    "like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
    Our midfield may or may not have the beating of their opposite number in that scenario you're talking about. It's the idea that swapping out Pogba or Matic for a shorter player (like Hererra?) would instantly improve us that I find so laughable.
  19. Sep 13, 2017

    Adebesi Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2006
    Messages:
    17,300
    Location:
    Sanctity, like a cat, abhors filth.
    Pun intended?

    I also thought of the left footed penalty taker thing when I saw the bit about tall people not being dynamic in the OP.
  20. Sep 13, 2017

    Adebesi Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2006
    Messages:
    17,300
    Location:
    Sanctity, like a cat, abhors filth.
    Its the kind of thing commentators come out with, which probably gives this idea a veneer of credibility. I distinctly remember a commentator once saying Peter Crouch had "quick feet for a big man". The thing is, commentators come out with quite a bit of shit, so just because they see an imaginary correlation between height and skill on the ball or dynamism, that doesnt mean the correlation exists.
  21. Sep 13, 2017

    Moonwalker Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,903
    That's not an opinion I care to defend.
  22. Sep 13, 2017

    sammsky1 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    21,487
    Location:
    Behind my 
    One of the core reasons for Mourinho's success is that he seeks out benefits most other managers don't even consider. For example, he plans for all matches 'in phases' and implements substitutions accordingly.

    Likewise, I imagine in this instance, he is initially seeking all the attributes typically required in a world class midfielder, but once he has identified that small pool he will select the tallest, as that provides an additional benefit.

    To summarise, Mourinho succeeds because his due diligence and tactics are more detailed and rigorous than other coaches, and this is simply an example of that.
  23. Sep 13, 2017

    Treble Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    6,112
    Swapping Matic for Kante would make us stronger, IMO. Don't know about Herrera. The season is long, maybe we'll see at some point Pogba and Herrera. But we won't play with just 2 mids vs top opposition.
  24. Sep 13, 2017

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    88,190
    Location:
    "like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
    Trying to get the best possible midfield involving Pogba is difficult, because of Pogba. He's a unique player, with fairly unique set of strengths/weaknesses. Matic is a very different player who can and will fit into pretty much any midfield but doesn't have the same ability that Pogba has to create something out of nothing. The fact their heights are almost identical shows just how silly it is to try and pigeon-hole all tall players together.

    Especially when their height is within an inch or two of many superb yet very different midfielders; from Vieira, to Zidane, to Lampard, to Veron, to Busquets etc etc.
  25. Sep 13, 2017

    Cliche Guevara Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Messages:
    604
    Precisely!

    In my opinion if Jose had the choice of signing peak-Messi or peak-Ronaldo, he'd definitely sign Ronaldo due to the height difference. It's just something extra he'd feel he could use.

    He wouldn't buy Crouch instead of Messi, though. Obviously.
  26. Sep 13, 2017

    breakout67 Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2017
    Messages:
    453
    This Kante-Pogba partnership doesnt work, both are players that vacate their position and need a player to sit back. A midfield 2 requires a very disciplined and efficient DM and a box to box midfielder.

    Kante and Pogba with a dedicated DM behind them would be very good, but in a 2 neither are defensively aware enough.
  27. Sep 13, 2017

    Treble Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    6,112
    It's not about individual tall players but about having more of them in the same team and especially in the same midfield. My hypothesis is that it may have costs in terms of dynamism and quick reactions and these costs may be exploited by teams that are very good at pressing. Time will tell whether the hypothesis is daft. I expect Liverpool to have a better balance of created/conceded chances in the game next month. The caftards may be in for a shock.
  28. Sep 13, 2017

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    4,554
    I'd expect the same even with Kante & Pogba in our side, Liverpool are a decent side, will be pumped & are excellent at home.
    I reckon caftards would be more shocked if we go and smash them.
    Liverpool having the marginally shorter Can & Henderson is midfield aint the reason though.
  29. Sep 13, 2017

    Verons left nostril New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2017
    Messages:
    11
    Supports:
    Wealdstone F.C
    you can't train someone to be tall, but you can train someone who is tall to be fairly good in the air.

    Part of Fellaini's game is the height he adds in the position he plays, he tends to float into attack positions and when the balls in the air it is like having an additional target man hanging around - it makes him difficult for opposition to mark & manage.
    example, from a typical corner you have 2 center halfs watching 2 forwards, full backs will typically sit one at opposite end of the box and one on far post to clear the line, you add another 6 footer in the mix and it makes aerial defense tricky.
    same goes for any aerial ball going forward really.

    on top of that, classic style defensive midfielders are no longer as common, most teams play a deep playmaker or ball carrying dynamo and, unless its my imagination, CMs seem to be getting shorter these days as the focus is on technical ability rather then physical.
  30. Sep 13, 2017

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2002
    Messages:
    44,427
    Location:
    Founder of IhateMakeleles.org and Gourcufffanboysa
    What makes some of you imagine tall players aren't technically good? Do you think the likes of Ferdinand, Zidane, Cantona, Zlatan Ibrahamovic, Vieira, Socrates, Gullit were technichal dwarfs?
  31. Sep 13, 2017

    ShakeUnBake So, Aguero eh? Great Arsenal player

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Messages:
    975
    Supports:
    Ajax
    I think as it is in any sport, good enough equals tall enough. Or strong enough. Or old enough. Or technical enough. I remember Mike Tyson making it seem as if being tall was a disadvantage in heavyweight boxing. It wasn't but he was good enough that it seemed so! Different things work for different reasons. We hope to become our own unique top football team, and no two top teams work the exact same. We'll have to figure out what works for us.

    Is our midfield good enough? They look the part. With Pogba, Matic, Herrera, Fellaini and Carrick I think we're set for a good season, but time will tell.
  32. Sep 13, 2017

    crazysherlock New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2014
    Messages:
    10
    Our Midfield vs Other Midfields (Height in cm):

    United Pogba 191 Matic 194 Fellaini 194 Herrera 182 Carrick 188cm

    Liverpool Wijnaldum 175 Henderson 182 Can 184 Coutinho -171 Lallana 172

    Chelsea Kante -168 Bakayoko 185 Fabregas 180

    Man City De Bruyne 181 Silva 173 Fernandinho 179 Silva 173 gundogan 180 Toure 188

    Tottenham Eric Dier 188 Dembele 185 Wanyama 188


    Real Madrid Kroos 182cm Casemiro 184cm Modric 174cm Isco 176cm

    Barcelona Rakitic 184cm Iniesta 171cm Busquets 189cm

    Our midfield is in fact the tallest among the premier league elite.
  33. Sep 13, 2017

    el3mel Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2016
    Messages:
    6,725
    Location:
    Egypt
    Who said we're targeting players because of their height ?
  34. Sep 13, 2017

    jb8521 Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2007
    Messages:
    3,961
    The whole idea that a difference of an inch or 2 in height has any significant impact on a players technique, agility or ability to deal with a pressing game is a ridiculous one. If we were signing massive, slow players with no technique or starting players ahead of significantly better players just because of their size and spending the game hoofing long balls at a big immobile lump this thread might make sense but we've actually been playing quick attacking football while also dominating possession in most games while also benefiting from having tall players by scoring from crosses and set pieces in games where we were struggling to score.
  35. Sep 13, 2017

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    88,190
    Location:
    "like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
    Our midfield which started our last league game was, on average, 2cm taller than Spurs. But we're going to get dicked whenever we face teams that can press and they won't. Because that (just under) one inch makes all the difference. Apparently.
  36. Sep 13, 2017

    GM K Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,856

    I think Jose will be in the best position to give an accurate answer to your question but to a very large extent, I think your observation is spot on. Jose does like very physical players and many of such players tend to have some height.

    There was this post on a site some years ago when Jose managed Madrid. You might find it relevant to your post:


    .........................

    Real Madrid and Barcelona height comparison
    [​IMG]
    Real Madrid
    Casillas - 185
    Pepe -187
    Carvalho - 184
    Ramos - 183
    Coentrao - 180
    Alonso - 183
    Khedira - 189
    Ozil - 182
    Di Maria - 182
    Higuain - 184
    Ronaldo - 185
    Avarage height - 184 cm (all players are tall)

    Barcelona
    Valdes - 183
    Puyol - 177
    Pique - 192
    Alves - 170
    Adriano - 170
    Busquets - 189
    Iniesta - 170
    Xavi - 170
    Pedro - 170
    Sanchez - 170
    Messi - 170
    Average height - 174 cm (only 2 players are tall)

    as we can see R.Madrid mostly buy tall players and Barcelona short players. This must be their philosophy. what is the reason for this and which club does it right?

    ...............................................


    So, that was someone also wondering why Jose's team was so tall in Spain. Interestingly, the average height of the Real Madrid team today is about 5'11". It has suddenly grown short! Co-incidence? I don't think so.

    Maybe this is why people have a particular impression about how his teams play. I agree that tall players tend to be less dynamic (this is in the most general sense as it is not a rule or law. We all know very tall players who are / were incredibly dynamic and short players who are/were not).

    I once jokingly said that Jose was always going to be a C.Ronaldo manager rather than a Lionel Messi manager or if he were managing a country, it will likely be one that is very physical.
  37. Sep 13, 2017

    Treble Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    6,112
    Spurs used Dier moslty as a CB last season. Based on last season, the difference in height between their and our mids is at least 2 inches. More importantly though, United aim much higher than Spurs. Spurs had a very good season by their standards. By United standards to finish a distant second and to fall apart in Europe would't be a good season. So no, Spurs are not the measure of success. I hope so.
  38. Sep 13, 2017

    Treble Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    6,112
    Thank you mate. Jose's preference for physically imposing players should not come as a surprise at this point of his career. His reliance on big players may well work after all, especially in the EPL.
  39. Sep 13, 2017

    Lentwood Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2015
    Messages:
    1,322
    Location:
    West Didsbury, Manchester
    The way I see, we are one of maybe 5/6 clubs who can sign almost any player we wan't in world football. If you have a choice between a technically great CM who is 5"10 and a great CM who is 6"4, wouldn't you rather go with the player who is 6"4 since 33% of goals scored are from set pieces?
  40. Sep 13, 2017

    Moonwalker Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,903
    It's incredible how most people disagreeing with the op don't even have complementary arguments. It ranges from - "Yes Jose has this preference but I think it's a good thing" to "Jose has no such preference whatsoever, it's all a coincidence."

    You'd think some of these brave conformists (full of awareness) would figure out that their arguments are at complete odds, and perhaps confront each other about it, but I can see how that's not as appealing as forming a clique based on very little intellectual overlap, other than (against the op, and 'in the majority').

    This is some of the stuff people thought was a smart contribution:

    "The tall players are not just bringing height and nothing else" - isn't what was argued.
    "Clearly they are not just tall players" - he didn't claim otherwise.
    "So we should buy short players because they are short now?" -not what he said.
    "I think our tall players have a lot more going for them than just their height" - didn't disagree with that.

    And then a long list of arguments refuting an absolute claim, when none was uttered. That's poor form, even for this place.
  41. Sep 13, 2017

    donkeyfish Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2016
    Messages:
    4,802
    I guess you could argue what dynamic really means, but I can't say a player like Pogba strike me as an un-dynamic player. Even Fellaini is mobile in a sense, finding positions in the box from the sitting midfield position more often than not.

    Same with players like Yaya Toure, would definitely call him a dynamic midfielder at his best.

    It's probably true that generally very tall players are less dynamic, but I'd say it's not that relevant. More relevant is whether our very tall players are