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Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by 032Devil, Jan 8, 2011.

  1. Feb 2, 2011

    towcester_red Full Member

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    I prefer the manager to have all the power, maybe thats down to how things have been run at Utd, I dont know.

    With DoF's you always get stories coming out of how the manager didnt really want this player etc etc. The DoF's spend a lot more time with the chairman/board so thier opinion seems to hold more weight than that of the manager. I just think it gets messy.

    Of course they have been a few success stories from it, I saw it first hand at Bristol Rovers when they had Lennie Lawrence and Paul Trollope in charge, took them from bottom of league 2 into a top half finish in league 1 last year.

    But you question who was really running the club? Lawrence left, he brought in some pretty dreadful players towards the end. Trollope was then swiftly sacked and the club are almost back to square 1...
  2. Feb 2, 2011

    Sam.G Banned

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    Fair enough. They definitely have all the ingredients of a mess but clubs on the continent make it work so i imagine, if done properly, it would work here too.

    As an aside, are you a Bristol boy?
  3. Feb 2, 2011

    CnutOfAllCnuts Bald Boring Cnut

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    Towcester. I am guessing....
  4. Feb 2, 2011

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

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    You ask me, more clubs should have one.

    Look at how often clubs sack their manager and how much money gets wasted because each new manager wants his own boys in and quickly gets rid of all the players that doesn't suit his style or that he fails to appreciate.

    A director of football gives you much greater consistency and continuity in your transfer strategy and footballing philosophy as a club.

    I was delighted FSG went that route, though we've yet to see how competent Commoli will really be for us. I had grown tired of watching first Houllier, then Rafa, then Hodgson (Thankfully, we nipped that one in the bud) come in, decide the squad needs a total overhaul and bring in their own men with casual disregard for the quality of the players already there because they didn't sign them.

    Earlier in thread someone wondered why this kind of money was given to a caretaker manager. Thanks to having a director of football, we're not as paralysed in the transfer market as we might otherwise have been in such a situation.

    I don't doubt Kenny has plenty of input on transfers and I imagine Commoli is not going to sign anyone that Kenny hasn't ok'ed. But at the end of the day it's Commoli managing the shortlist and how we spend the money and it's his job to ensure that there is a longterm coherency to our transfer strategy.

    Imo, the Manager position only really works if you have someone good enough and stable enough to be there longterm. He has to be as good in the transfer market as he is as a coach. Only Wenger and Ferguson fit that bill in the premiership.
  5. Feb 2, 2011

    Sam.G Banned

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    Ha!

    What makes you say that?
  6. Feb 2, 2011

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    Surely that whats a lot of irrational football fans think?
  7. Feb 2, 2011

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

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    Tabloid reporting from a British press inherently distrustful of this setup.

    It's doesn't take that much to make it work. All you need are two people with decent communication skills, who understand what their role is and share a broadly similar philosophy of football. They are there to support each other.
  8. Feb 2, 2011

    Sam.G Banned

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    Dunno. Ask one.

    But it was tongue in cheek as I am not going to get any change out of a comment like that on here.
  9. Feb 2, 2011

    CnutOfAllCnuts Bald Boring Cnut

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    How can a manager be held responsible for results when he doesn't decide who get bought and sold.

    I'd say such a system provides less stability, not more.

    Surely, if the manager does not decide what players to have and what football philosophy, he is not a manager. No more than a Sammy Lee or Mike Phelan.
  10. Feb 2, 2011

    CnutOfAllCnuts Bald Boring Cnut

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    Pretty much like manager and an assistant...
  11. Feb 2, 2011

    BaldwinLegend Full Member

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    I agree that the role has a bad rep due to bad appointments, especially in England.

    How is Comolli's work at Spurs now viewed, with hindsight? I was living abroad at the time so lost touch with the PL for a while. I know Jol fell out with him and was unhappy with the set up, but looking at the list of players signed while he was there: Berbatov, Modric, Bale, Taarabt, Kaboul, Gomes, Assou-Ekotto, Hutton, Boateng and Pavyluchenko - that's a fairly strong record, has to be said.
  12. Feb 2, 2011

    BaldwinLegend Full Member

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    Not at all really. DofF is an exclusively administrative position after all.
  13. Feb 2, 2011

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

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    Because it's his job to get the best out of the players, coach them and decide on tactics.

    When it comes to the week to week business of winning games, the manager is still the most important man at the club even in such a setup.

    Quite a bit more. The assistant manager doesn't decide team selection, coaching strategy or tactics. He has input, but that's not his job.

    But in fact, there is a reason why usually the term Head Coach is used in such a setup. They don't manage the club in a broader sense. They are focused on the team in front of them.
  14. Feb 2, 2011

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    Of course you're not, same effect as posting your 'truisms', one wonders what the point is.
  15. Feb 2, 2011

    Eyepopper Lowering the tone since 2006

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    Ahh the curse of subjectivity...... it can cleverly disguise itself as objectivity.
  16. Feb 2, 2011

    Sam.G Banned

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    The same point as any post on here I make; discussion and to waste time.
  17. Feb 2, 2011

    Sam.G Banned

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    Watch and learn, Popper!
  18. Feb 2, 2011

    CnutOfAllCnuts Bald Boring Cnut

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    All of that is related to each other in my opinion. Football philosophy, coaching, player purchases, tactics etc, and one man has to be responsible for it all to avoid a mess.

    Only the manager (or head coach or whatever) can decide how the team should play. In order to get the team to play the way he wants it, he needs to be in charge of players coming in and going out.

    Appoint the right man, and you don't need a manager and a director of football.
  19. Feb 2, 2011

    BaldwinLegend Full Member

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    Do you honestly think it's that simple nowadays?

    How many managers can you name who are ready and capable of being given complete responsibility for running a massive European club on their own today?
  20. Feb 2, 2011

    towcester_red Full Member

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    Well its less interesting than it seems in my 25 years....

    Born Manchester (ashton under lyne), live in Towcester now, lived in Bristol for 5 years, didnt get up to Utd that much down there so took Rovers under my wing as couldnt possibly support Bristol City...
  21. Feb 2, 2011

    CnutOfAllCnuts Bald Boring Cnut

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    They are not on their own. Massive coaching set-ups, scouting networks, organisational infra-structur etc.

    Meaning they can focus on managing the team , including player purchases
  22. Feb 2, 2011

    towcester_red Full Member

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    I agree with a lot of the points on it, but the manager should always have the final say on who comes in and who leaves any club.

    Regardless of whether or not you have a DoF if you got a new manager in in the summer surely he would want to get some of his own players in again? So regardless of the DoF the process starts again?

    Isnt the Director of Football a glorified chief scout?
  23. Feb 2, 2011

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

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    it can vary from club to club, but generally no.

    I imagine if a new man comes in, he will have ideas of whom he'd like brought in and whom should go. A good DoF will probably be eager to try and accommodate him as well. A good part of his job is to make sure the head coach is happy with what he is working with as he is the one who has to deliver the results. And much of the DoF assesment of transfer strategy will come from the coaching staff's assesment of strengths and deficiencies in the current squad.

    But it is still the Dof's job to make sure it can be fitted into the overall transfer strategy of the club. If it doesn't make sense within that scheme, he'll have to tell him no. And if the manager thinks it makes sense to offload a player to help fund it all that the DoF regards as a prized asset he might tell him no as well. And I imagine especially so if the new man thinks an overhaul of the squad is needed.

    And on the other hand, the DoF might well present him with the current shortlist when he arrives and ask him to consider those targets carefully as options to sign. Which he might be inclined to do as well, seeing as he won't enjoy the benefits of having his own scouting network to pick out alternatives.

    I think a lot of managers when they join new clubs are often very casual in their assessment of players, because they have in the back of their mind that ideally they'd be bringing in their own men anyway.

    Essentially, as head coach, none of them are 'your' men (or conversely they all are - point is, he doesn't get room to start thinking like that). Your job is to coach them and get the best of out of them. And that's a different perspective that necessitates bringing the best out of the players you have.

    Of course, all this also necessitates that you appoint a head coach that shares common ground with the DoF on some fundamental footballing points. But this is an essential element of longterm planning in the first place.
  24. Feb 2, 2011

    CnutOfAllCnuts Bald Boring Cnut

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    basically, all just the same jobs as the managers always had, with new names and titles, and shared responsibilities.

    To me, it is wrong that so-called "transfer strategies" should take priority, and that the so-called "transfer strategy" shouldn't be set by the manager related to the manager's aims and the way the manager want to play.
  25. Feb 2, 2011

    spinoza Paz's ion

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    There aren't that many right managers. That's the point. So when you're stuck with one who can't take the entire responsibility, you hire another one to oversee something he can't. That model is inferior to finding the manager who can do the job.
    Can't help it if you don't understand me.
  26. Feb 2, 2011

    spinoza Paz's ion

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    And shared responsibility, which is an easy way to end up where no one is responsible for anything. If someone can't do the whole job, he shouldn't be in the job. Getting two people to do the job is a cop out - duct tape on a leak.
  27. Feb 2, 2011

    Sam.G Banned

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    As proven by...?
  28. Feb 2, 2011

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

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    Not quite. A director of football will generally find much more time to scout and assess the market than what a manager focused on coaching his team can do.
  29. Feb 2, 2011

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

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    you're right. sack the coaching staff. sack the scouts.
  30. Feb 2, 2011

    CnutOfAllCnuts Bald Boring Cnut

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    You mean, like the clubs' scouts do?
  31. Feb 2, 2011

    spinoza Paz's ion

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    Obviously, you don't understand what responsibility means.
  32. Feb 2, 2011

    CnutOfAllCnuts Bald Boring Cnut

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    Arsenal and United have been the two most stable clubs in world football the last 10-15 years. And that's down to one main factor. Their managers have been responsible for managing their clubs, from top to bottom.
  33. Feb 2, 2011

    BaldwinLegend Full Member

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    Is that supposed to be new information to us? We all know that already, and as I've told you at least three times today - you can't base your argument against it solely on the fact that Ferguson and Wenger are successful without them. Especially when you admit you know very little about clubs like Sevilla which have successfully used other models.

    I'm still waiting to see how many managers you can name that you'd be absolutely happy entrusting the entire running of a top European football club to today.
  34. Feb 2, 2011

    towcester_red Full Member

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    Out of interest, would you entrust Kenny with everything?
  35. Feb 2, 2011

    BaldwinLegend Full Member

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    I wouldn't, but he's operating in tandem with a DofF so it's irrelevant, isn't it?

    I do think Dalglish has made some smart decisions though already - not least getting Clarke in as assistant coach there. His presence there is clearly having some kind of uplifting effect and working alongside Clarke and Comolli it doesn't look as daft a decision as I first thought it was.
  36. Feb 2, 2011

    e.cantona Full Member

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    Daglish is caretaker, right? In that case a dof would make a lot of sense, with Torres wanting out, and going out, Liverpool being in a position needing to strengthen and needing long term planing. I cant see why, if Daglish is in fact just a stop gap/caretaker, they would let him make the decision on who to bring in except maybe having a word on it. I'm sure when they decide on a long term manager, that person will be given a lot more say in these kind of decisions. If Daglish is behind this, and only staying for this season, it'd be rather strange
  37. Feb 3, 2011

    Boss Melodramatic, attention seeking space-attacker

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    he's actually doing a decent job so far, didn't really need that long to settle
  38. Feb 3, 2011

    Sam.G Banned

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    I think you could have taken over and given the dressing room a lift, Boss.

    A little early to tell about Dalglish but the portents are good so far.
  39. Feb 3, 2011

    Boss Melodramatic, attention seeking space-attacker

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    Maybe people can confess Roy was absolute dogshit at Pool, losing to the likes of Blackpool at home
  40. Feb 3, 2011

    amolbhatia100 Barbiturates ain't got nothin' on me

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    Agree. Right now Liverpool are riding a bit on the wave of being under a new manager and having made a couple of signings. There is a euphoria and hope that comes along with that. The real test is when that dies down in a month or two.

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