Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by cesc's_mullet, Nov 14, 2008.
see? i'm being opressed for my beliefs
gandhi = me
Take the goals away from either player and put them in the best side in the world and Messi would still deliver a lot more.
Even if Ronaldo were as good for the team's overall play as he was in 06/07 he'd still not be as as good in that department as Messi. It's just not in his game. And he sacrificed much of his overall game to become a better goalscorer, though I think he's been adding some of those facets back into his game this season.
The same argument stays. Based on one goal. The other 4 in that video he just stood still and headed it. Not a hard thing to do tbh. It's like at practise really.
Being a good header means to be able to challenge for the balls that come into the box. You're not a good header if you're tall and manage to clear it from the defense. Ferdinand is not a good header for example.
Not that you were saying anything different, just getting my point across.
Oh, I'm not denying he's a decent header (possibly very good for his height), but in the grand scheme of things, he's not ever going to be considered a great header of the ball, mainly due to his height.
Sir Alex said many years ago that Gary Neville would have been the best CB in the league if he was 3 inches taller, but the fact is he wasn't 3 inches taller and hence he was never the best CB in the league.
What a ridiculous argument, the ultimate aim of a football game is to score goals (well score more than the opposition).
Someone like Owen (the traitorous little judas) used to score a fair amount of goals with his head and he is a midget. I laughed my ass off when he scored a header against your lot after outjumping Silvestre.
That said I'm not sure he challenged well for that many headers the way someone like Torres can. But he was excellent at finding space where there wasn't much challenge for the header. And invariably found the target whenever he connected.
Lucas is very good at the same. He just is yet to hit the target so far in his Liverpool career.
Anyway, who cares about Messi's heading. He doesn't have to challenge for many in the first place and even if it were underrated, it's not like it's so outstanding it's worth mentioning. He's not exactly Riedle reborn is he.
So basically, you don't really rate players like Xavi and Iniesta. Or Zidane (except when he scores on big occasions).
Those 3 players you named are/were all midfielders, guess what their main role in the team is? Next you'd be telling me I don't rate Vidic cause he doesn't score enough.
Ronaldo & Messi are both forwards and scoring goals is their most important role in the team. I just think it's ridiculous to compare forwards and say "if you take away the goals, etc, etc".
It'd be like comparing goalkeepers and saying, "if you ignore the saves they make, GK A is better than GK B because he distributes better."
Messi will probably make a better midfielder than Ronaldo, I'll give you that.
I don't think anyone cares as much about top goal scorers as you do. Don't worry though, the real medals, you know league titles, cup competitions etc are more important than being top scorer. I'm surprised Messi was ever top scorer to be honest.
Still, he might not win the top scorer award, he'll still win la liga and possibly others and also quite likely to win his 3rd ballon d'or in as many years. It hurts you i know but that's the way it is.
Though I did say 'if you take away the goals' I didn't actually use it in the usual casual derogatory sense t denigrate him as a player, but merely as a comparative example of facets of play. There's no sense in taking away his goals when evaluating him as a player overall. But it does make sense to evaluate hos contribution in addition to goals.
And in this regard Messi does a lot for the team, the stuff good creative attacking midfielders do, when he is not scoring goals. So it makes sense to take that into evalution of him as a player. It makes no sense to me to ignore what he brings to the team besides scoring goals simply because his primary role is as a goalscorer. Di Stefano would hardly be the legend he is if that were a proper way of evaluating a player.
So it wasn't you who got all excited with Messi's 47 goals last season despite him choking on all the big occasions - CL, World Cup, etc?
Barca better win La Liga, it would be a calamitous collapse if they messed it up.
As for the Ballon D'Or, his win this year has just further eroded what little credibility the award had left, seems like Fifa not only fixes WC host voting, they even manipulate player voting...
I've never said one should ignore other things the players do, but ultimately goalscoring is the most important part for forwards, that's all.
I guess it lost it as soon as Ronaldo stopped winning it.
47 goals is an incredible feat. I never expected him to score that many goals in a single season aged 22.
Didnt see any choking myself. Saw him demolish arsenal, lost to inter along with everyone else. It happens in cup competitions, the best teams win, not the best players and even the best teams can be beaten. For example Madrid drew with Almeria, not Ronaldo.
You get different types of forwards though, not every forward does the same thing. You get brilliant forwards who arent brilliant goal scorers and vice versa.
as it stands messi is equally as good a goal scorer as he is all round player. He drops deep a lot. Despite his all round play his goal scoring is still incredible. Only Ronaldo is anywhere near him in this regard but Messi could score 10/15 goals less than Ronaldo yet still prove himself to be the better player.
Xavi's passing is just much better than Messi's period. To hell with this position malarky. Retention ball, long ball, killer ball, Xavi has mastered them all. Messi I believe will reach that level. But only when he gets the required experience.
My earlier statement still stands. No one serious underrates Messi passing abilities. You'd have to be blind to do so, I mean remember the classico. Just like no one serious can believe he is as good a passer of the ball as the likes of Xavi, Iniesta or Scholes even currently. Just think back to the world cup with him as the central playmaker in chief.
Messi's passing is better than Xavi's in my opinion, especially the ones that split a defence from deep, you actually say Messi do this alot at the world cup since Maradona assigned him playmaker, so is Fabregas' for that matter in my opinion
making the most passes does not make you the better passer
of course it's subjective, when it comes to more creativity and imagination to define better passing then I will have to pick Messi
when it comes to controlling a tempo and picking key passes I will select Xavi
Messi is superb all round, he won't dictate a game like Xavi because he has more facets to his game. I'm sure you could play Messi in the midfield and instruct him to dictate the game through short passes, but it would be a waste of his talent, just to prove a point.
I thought he's proven beyond doubt that he couldn't do it at the World Cup with Argentina. Before anyone starts, whilst they're not Barca quality, the rest of the Argie side isn't that bad.
So you agree with the most assists = best passer theory.
Nani is a better passer than Scholes.
Just look at how Argentina destroyed Spain when they put in some competent players and a new manager.
Besides, the likes of Xavi etc have played CM for so long, if Messi was to train in that position for a significant amount of time, I'm sure he'd be brilliant. Wouldn't be surprised if he moved there towards the end of his career.
Just look at how Portugal destroyed Spain when they put in some competent players and a new manager.
Or perhaps Spain just aren't up for friendlies...
I thought I said the opposite :/
imagination and creativity>key passes
Messi has incredible vision and passing ability, I love how players like him can perfectly weight through-balls.
On a side note: I wonder how many times cal's whacked off to his Ronaldo poster today...
There was nothing laughable about that, Chief. I'm not disagreeing that I think Xavi is the better overall passer.
All I was suggesting was that the there was something else that must be taken into account, and that there is nothing wrong with at least ranking Messi in the same league of passing as Xavi. I mean, Messi's ability to play the through ball is absolutely phenomenal and ranks him up there with anyone, and it's not as if he's the sort of player that consistently gives it away simply.
There is at least a discussion to be had. I think you're being a little too extreme in your view here in order to further put across your opinion that Xavi is a better paasser.
it's well known you like perfectly weighted balls my friend
I think Messi being a attacking mid fielder you cannot compare his passing to a central mid fielder like Xavi.
I mean the passes they have to make are completely dependent on the position they play in.
Xavi has to make passes to spread the ball around while Messi makes the attacking passes further up the pitch.
So I can understand when people say his passing is almost as good as Xavi's.Messi is terrific at making attacking passes or through ball or what ever you can call it.
However I do believe Xavi is the better passer because he is so fucking good.But difficult to compare.
Get a grip. I don't base anything on one thing. Messi is a good header of the ball, an excellent header in fact. Be it controlling the ball with his head or passing it with his head or scoring goals. It's never going to be a main asset but despite his lack in height he's very good with his head.
It's a common theme in continental football. You see it in the Italian league and Spanish leagues an awful lot, where a player will use his head as a tool rather than just to clear the ball. Passing with your head accurately is a very difficult thing to do in my opinion and i appreciate it when players are able to do it with such ease. When you look to direct it into a team mates path or cushion it to feet rather than look to put it out/distance up the pitch it's a fine thing.
Controlling the ball with his head ? How does one do that FV ?
Cushion it into your own path. The same way you control a ball with your shoulder, thigh, chest.
I see but it's not really the same thing, with those other part you have the possibility of keeping the ball extremely close to your body.
FV - No one cares about Messi's heading.
Whether it's true that he is good or not at it, it's a bit of a fanboiyish thing to highlight.
Cheif torn blubber rubber and Cal???? stated that i based my opinion on messi being underrated at heading solely on his headed goal in the CL Final against United. I posted in regards to that, hardly just coming out with random statements...
I'd pretty well agree with this. An to comment on Rubber Chief's post, and I know it won't be popular but I do not see Scholes as a better passer, excellent though he was/to an extent is.
About as many as you have to your Buddy Franklin one
Luke Hodge... Get it right!
Mate, you are attempting to suggest that on some level Messi passes that ball as good as Xavi. That to me is laughable. What Messi can do rather is pull off some great passes, rather than being a master passer.
On the contrary, there is plenty wrong. Messi was handed the reigns of a team from center midfield and didn't run team any where near as good as Xavi does with his passing. Just because
Messi has outstanding vision, rarely loses the ball and can pull of great through balls sometimes doesn't put him in the same league with people like Xavi when it comes to using a ball.
Rather I'm just being brutally honest. Some of you just take Messi praise too far. I'm just trying to put you back in line.
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