Lionel Messi

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by cesc's_mullet, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. May 10, 2012

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2003
    Messages:
    17,009
    Location:
    Moyes. Ought. Not. Go.
    I think it's a decent point. I find Britons to be probably the most culturally insensitive people I have met abroad and I know this perception is widely shared. Given that, it's a bit rich to be taking as a matter of course that foreigners coming to the British Isles should just shut up until they have absorbed all cultural intricacies of the country.
  2. May 10, 2012

    Skorenzy Full Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2011
    Messages:
    3,881

    Re: Coutinho, you're absolutely correct, but he would have been about 15 years old at the time of the 1958 season and if his (Portuguese) Wikipedia page is to believed the 1958 Paulista title isn't among his honours (titulos), which would lead me to believe he didn't feature extensively.

    The first references in reports and lineups of Coutinho that I have seen are from 1959: "In addition to state titles, the Saints won the Rio-São Paulo in 1959, beating Vasco in the final by 3–0 with two goals of the boy Coutinho, 16 [years old]. Even in that Coutinho 1959 São Paulo had five goals against Ponte Preta in the Saints game, even without Pele won 12–1." (from an article on Pelé's Santos, which seems to be pretty much translated directly from Portuguese, but interesting nonetheless).


    Re: World Cup, http://www.rsssf.com/tables/58full.html#grd

    or for visual: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_FIFA_World_Cup_Final

    Almost every piece of literature I've read on the 58 WC mentions that 3-2-5 was the dominant system in the tournament, something which the usually reliable RSSSF seems to back up.

    And actually in his first game, v USSR Pelé played the centre-forward role, after that he went to inside left and Mazola (QF) and Vává (SF & F) took over.
  3. May 10, 2012

    Snow Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    19,830
    Location:
    Reykjavík
    Pretty much yes. Think the Germans have got the upper hands on the Brits. Well at least as far as obnoxious tourists goes. Brits are less adventurous in general. Spain is where they go in the summer and they enjoy British things whilst they are there. English breakfast buffets, British pubs and beer. Even the holiday homes are in the style of British homes.
  4. May 10, 2012

    Gazza Magic Carpet Pilot

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2000
    Messages:
    28,854
    Location:
    Some place faaar away... yes, that'll do
    Well, Suarez plays in England

    If he played in Argentina, no one would care about his use of the word
  5. May 10, 2012

    Gazza Magic Carpet Pilot

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2000
    Messages:
    28,854
    Location:
    Some place faaar away... yes, that'll do
    But it's not relevant! If I'm a high profile tourist whose actions are likely to make the news, I watch what I say a bit more than if I'm chatting shit in a bar with my mates. What dickhead British tourists do abroad isn't relevant.
  6. May 10, 2012

    Snow Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    19,830
    Location:
    Reykjavík
    Argentina doesn't have black people. If they do they keep them well hidden.
  7. May 10, 2012

    MrMarcello Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2000
    Messages:
    37,097
    Location:
    On a pale blue dot in space
    Can someone explain the positional numbers to an American that didn't grow up in this sport?

    It goes off the old W-formation, right? I believe 1 is the keeper, 2 & 3 are the modern day fullbacks, 4 & 5 (or is it 6?) are current central defenders, 7 & 11 are wingers today, 6 & 8 are central midfielders, and 9 & 10 are the forwards.

    Yet there are times I see starting lineups for United from the mid-90s that will have Cantona in the 7 slot, Sharpe in the 6 slot, etc.
  8. May 10, 2012

    Raoul Administrator

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 1999
    Messages:
    50,925
    Location:
    Las Vegas
  9. May 10, 2012

    Snow Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    19,830
    Location:
    Reykjavík
    That word definitely sounds offensive in many contexts. It's simple. You don't bring in your own cultural thing into a totally different culture and expect it to be the norm. Also is someone is calling someone one the opposition team a 'negrito' you can bet your ass he's not being kind.
  10. May 10, 2012

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2003
    Messages:
    17,009
    Location:
    Moyes. Ought. Not. Go.
    It's not uniform. the no 7 is in Britain just as often the inside forward (at liverpool, 7 is sanctified as the hallmark of the creative fulcrum) whereas on the continent it is generally the no 10. And 4,5,6 vary between centrebacks and defensive midfielders (I tend to think of no 5 as the holding player).

    I think the only more or less uniform ones are 1 for the goalkeeper, 2 for the rightback, 3 for the leftback, 9 for the striker and 7-11 being midfielders and attackers.

    Except for dickheads like Gallas who thinks wearing no 9 as a defender is cool.
  11. May 10, 2012

    Brwned Have you ever been in love before?

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    42,353
    You're always good for some info. Skorenzy, much appreciated. You're probably right about Pele in his early Santos years then. I only saw from the QF onwards so I can only comment on that but it didn't look like Orlando was playing as a wing-half at all, although perhaps that's just me misunderstanding the W-M system. One thing I can tell you is that the Wikipedia image is wrong, without a shadow of a doubt. Nilton Santos is famed for being the first attacking fullback, and Bobby Charlton says this of Djalma Santos: "[He was] the best right-back I ever saw. He was too good to be a full-back, really, he could have played anywhere on the pitch. He always seemed to have so much time on the ball, which is the sign of a really good player.". So it'd have been madness to play them both in a three man defence. Djalma Santos only played in the final though so perhaps they changed to a 424/433 hybrid then. Didi for me simply didn't play that high up the pitch, he was a midfielder for sure. Zagallo spent as much time in the middle as out wide, but that's a relatively minor thing really. FWIW, here's a reference that has Brazil playing 424 - http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/...he_Tactical_Evolution_of_Brazilian_Soccer.pdf. For me it's not far off how we set up in 06/07, much like the Brazil '70 side.
  12. May 10, 2012

    Skorenzy Full Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2011
    Messages:
    3,881

    Well, I have the full game of the Final v Sweden somewhere on my pc and the last time I watched it I remember Didi being indeed maybe not quite as high up as the illustration suggests, but definitely not as deep as centre of midfield when in possession. He would be somewhat behind Vává and Pelé, but often around the opponent's box, with Pelé drifting left and right of Vává. Against France in the semi-final he played deeper (around the centre circle) as he scored a scorcher from distance and his rival Kopa would drop deeper as well.

    Nilton and Djalma Santos started off fairly narrow when without the ball, and what they did was certainly revolutionary in those days but they didn't come as high as a modern-day Dani Alves for example (who has also been utilized in back-3s by the way).

    Anyway, I'm certain the position of Orlando is key here (for the Final). My guess is that, when in possession he would push up from defence to midfield, which would allow Didi to move up as well, basically leaving a 3-man backline; when they were without the ball they still might have resembled a (2)-1-3 even instead of a flat back four like in your source.

    It's very interesting and I think where our accounts differ is on the fact that Feola overhauled his first team after a disappointing group stage game against England and in fear of the strong defense of the USSR. Initially he went with the formation as described in your source (that also indicates Pelé in the CF position, which is where he played from on his first start against the USSR). Against Wales and Sweden it resembled more closely a 3-2-5. Against France probably a 4-2-4/3-4-3.

    That's my guess anyway from what I've read and seen.



    edit: I've looked up the FIFA All-Star team selections and they use a 3-4-3 for the 1958 WC, so I suppose a midfield of Zito-Didi-Orlando-Zagallo which in the final looked to me as Zagallo quite wide out and high up the pitch, and Didi also higher than normal.
    In the 1962 one (a 4-3-3) Zagallo is considered a midfielder.

    I'll tell you what it's futile to try and describe a coherent system/formation throughout a prolongued period, because it exists anew every game again.

    So a 4-2-4/3-4-3/3-2-5 hybrid it is then? :p Depending on who has the ball.
  13. May 11, 2012

    Nucks Cuckoo

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2,584
    I didn't realize negro was racist anywhere.
  14. May 11, 2012

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    23,082
    Location:
    Montevideo
    Down here the norm was:

    1: GK
    2 & 3: CBs
    4: RB
    6: LB
    5: holding/battling midfielder
    8: all-round midfielder
    10: trequartista/playmaker
    9: centreforward
    7 & 11: winger/inside forward
  15. May 11, 2012

    MrMarcello Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2000
    Messages:
    37,097
    Location:
    On a pale blue dot in space
  16. May 11, 2012

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    35,777
    Location:
    ... and they are lovely beyond any singing of it.
    Your 235 looks right (it's numbered 1-11 with 8 & 10 in the valleys of the W). We then went to 424 (2,5,6,3 -4,10 - 7,8,9,11). In 442/4411 it looked more like (2,5,6,3- 7,4,8,11 - 10,9). Individual players with 11+ or favourite numbers started to screw it up in the 90s.
  17. May 11, 2012

    kps88 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    15,474
    Its incredibly daft of Drenthe to come out with these claims now in some random interview. He should have reported them straight after each game if it bothered him.
  18. May 11, 2012

    duffer Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2004
    Messages:
    15,456
    Location:
    Chelsea fan.
    Maybe it didn't bother him.

    He was probably asked a question about racial abuse, I very much doubt he called a press conference to bring it up.
  19. May 11, 2012

    kps88 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    15,474
    He's part of the problem then. If the same player has racially abused you several times over the course of your career, he has a responsibility to do something about it.
  20. May 11, 2012

    Zen Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    8,633
    The more I see old stats like that Muller thing above, the more I wish football had kept them for longer. It's weird that football as a whole was so unbelievably slow to get onto a system for the public....and even with Opta and others recording stats for the past 20 years, it's not until recently that they've become fully known by public.

    Baseball for instance has kept ridiculous stats since day one, same for Cricket, Basketball, NFL, NHL, hell you can get some solid stats on tennis going back to the 70's, but the worlds biggest sport? You struggle to find like assists as far back as the early 00's, which is really a simply stat to keep up with.

    It's given football fans and even some pundits the idea that "stats don't mean much", when in fact they really do tell you pretty much everything when you look at all stats you see now.
  21. May 11, 2012

    amolbhatia100 Barbiturates ain't got nothin' on me

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    44,620
    Location:
    india
    He can bring it up anytime he wants. I don't see the issue.

    Maybe these things aren't taken as seriously in Spain and he'd have gotten hell for it. God knows.
  22. May 11, 2012

    FCBarca Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    8,853
    Location:
    La Côte, Suisse
    It's not the entire story but credibility for Drenthe is in short supply...He's been a disciplinary issue at every club he's been at...And timing absolutely has everything to do with it...The match in question he referenced was 2 seasons ago yet it only comes out now?...Bitter player who burns bridges everywhere he goes with fewer & fewer friends in the game

    These days all you need it to do is be accused of something for it to be a story
  23. May 11, 2012

    noodlehair "It's like..."

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    6,595
    Location:
    Flagg
    I doubt he's just made it up.
  24. May 11, 2012

    Cheesy Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    13,903
    Location:
    Scotland
    I agree that it would be good to have those stats, but when it comes to comparing players from completely different eras, I don't think they're all that useful. For instance, with strikers, stats only tell a small story. You also have to look at when they played, what league they played in, what the pitches were like, what the standard of their own team was like etc.
  25. May 11, 2012

    kouroux Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2007
    Messages:
    42,103
    Location:
    Djibouti (La terre des braves)
    That's what I find odd.Surely with a subject as serious as racism, one would wanna mention any incidents ASAP.
    It's weird and even attention seeking from Drenthe to mention this now
  26. May 11, 2012

    noodlehair "It's like..."

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    6,595
    Location:
    Flagg
    Or alternatively, he got asked about it, in an interview, where an interviewer asks you questions about stuff.
  27. May 11, 2012

    FCBarca Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    8,853
    Location:
    La Côte, Suisse
    Because Leo being racist is standard questioning for reporters :rolleyes:
  28. May 11, 2012

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2003
    Messages:
    17,009
    Location:
    Moyes. Ought. Not. Go.
    Drenthe is a bonafide attention seeker. Wasn't too long ago he was slagging off placcy ronaldo either.
  29. May 11, 2012

    kps88 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    15,474
    What hope does the fight against racism have when a player who has, allegedly, been repeatedly racially abused by the same player only mentions it when specifically asked in an interview?
  30. May 11, 2012

    noodlehair "It's like..."

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    6,595
    Location:
    Flagg
    Or perhaps, the subject has been made relevant by the Luis Suarez furore, and the interviewer, knowing that attitudes are different in Spain, decded to ask about it, and push for a certain answer...you know, like it's his job to do.

    Drenthe doesn't even appear to be accusing Messi of being a racist. Just suggesting that attitudes from South American players are different and perhaps quite ignorant...don't let that get in the way of your outrage though.
  31. May 11, 2012

    noodlehair "It's like..."

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    6,595
    Location:
    Flagg
    What hope does the fight against racism have when a bunch of people on an internet board search for idiotic reasons to make it the black person's fault for being abused?
  32. May 11, 2012

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2003
    Messages:
    17,009
    Location:
    Moyes. Ought. Not. Go.
    I agree.

    He is an attention seeker anyway.
  33. May 11, 2012

    noodlehair "It's like..."

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    6,595
    Location:
    Flagg
    I'm struggling to see what part of this interview could be considered attention seeking?

    He's barely accused anyone of anything. South American players find terms acceptable that European players don't? How dare he suggest such a thing!
  34. May 11, 2012

    kps88 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    15,474
    If racism is to be completely stamped out its obvious the abused have just as much a role to play as the abusers. Who is saying it was Drenthe's fault for being abused?
  35. May 11, 2012

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2003
    Messages:
    17,009
    Location:
    Moyes. Ought. Not. Go.
    Saying controversial stuff about the two best players in the world is a good way to get people talking about Royston Drenthe.
  36. May 11, 2012

    noodlehair "It's like..."

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    6,595
    Location:
    Flagg
    You're implying it's his fault for not reporting it immediately, despite the possibility that he quite possibly tried to, and it was simply a case of no one being willing to listen.

    Not to mention that the Spanish media would have ripped him to shreds if he'd chirped up about it at the time.

    The responsibility is actually mostly on those who are neither the abused or the abuser to not stand there and do nothing, or refuse to look at the situation objectively just because it might put a temporary slant on the character of golden boy Messi.
  37. May 11, 2012

    kps88 Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    15,474
    Whole bunch of assumptions there. And the Spanish media are going to do just that right now anyway.

    All I'm saying is, its hypocritical of him to whine about it when he did nothing to stop it.
  38. May 11, 2012

    Brwned Have you ever been in love before?

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    42,353
    One thing's for sure, you can't trust those Wikipedia graphics...

    [​IMG]

    Anyone could tell you Garrincha didn't play in a 3-man midfield.
  39. May 11, 2012

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2003
    Messages:
    17,009
    Location:
    Moyes. Ought. Not. Go.
    That is a mouthful of assumption.

    So is this, though not quite as much as your first paragraph.

    This I do agree somewhat with.

    The way I see it, Drenthe hasn't actually accused Messi of racist abuse. He has used Messi as an example of South American players using language not acceptable here in Europe. I think Drenthe basically just wants the attention and I think the media are mistakenly jumping on this as racist abuse (and Drenthe has certainly given the ammo for it), but besides all this, there is a salient point: There is a cultural gap here that touches on the issue of racism that merits attention.
  40. May 11, 2012

    noodlehair "It's like..."

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    6,595
    Location:
    Flagg
    They wont, because it doesn't create nearly the same heat now, and he's not some nobody playing for Hercules at the mercy of the Barca/Real controlled Spanish football/media system.

    And how on earth does this make him a hypocrit? If someone rapes you, and you do nothing to stop it, are you a hypocrit for complaining about it?

Share This Page