Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by RedMachine03, Mar 29, 2018.
We need someone that knows much about football making footballing decisions
In the modern game there is a high turn around of managers. As a result it is not sustainable to give new managers a blank cheque to build a squad that fits their philosophy. Its easier to have someone above him that would handle recruitment and buy players that fit the vision of the club where the coach will just manage the first team.
Also the managers job is a lot more complex now. They dont have enough time to coach the team, speak to the press and scout players. Hell look at our football under Jose. Every game it looked liked we never spoke of tactics or formations until match day
I bumped into him in the streets of Old Town in Stockholm before the Europa final v Ajax. Shook his hand (he had a rock hard grip) and I asked him whether he had divided loyalties. Cold as ice, he said "not even one per cent". Don't know about possible DoF but he is very level-headed for sure.
A few number of DoF like figure at the big clubs don't really move between clubs. They usually stay with one club as they were reputable players at that said club like Zorc at Dortmund, Rummenigge at Bayern and Nedved at Juve.
I don't think Nedved would work as well at Utd as he possibly would be at Juve at the moment, as Nedved is a very well known and respected figure for Juve, has knowledge of the inner workings and ethos of Juve and then probably has something to contribute like ability to identify talent at youth level or senior level etc.
One of our potential DoFs, technical directors (however Utd decide to dress it up as) could be someone who's played with us and is reputable... maybe Nicky Butt could make the move up to it from academy director, maybe someone like Vidic or Evra even.
Thanks, looks an interesting read. I’ve not gone through it all yet but based on the opening few paragraphs it very much sounds to me like SAF almost acted as a DoF at Utd. Since he left, it’s like both a DoF and Manager left at the same time.
A really good read. It’s this kind of forward thinking I want at our club. Saf was brilliant at getting new and fresh ideas into the club with his coaches. But I do believe McKenna is really good at his job too. It just seems under Jose, he never got the chance to show it.
An experience DOF, with some guidelines around the desired style would work well.
We want to avoid the situation we have been in for the last 5yrs or so whereby our managers have each tried to play a totally different style of football and required different players to do so.
If you look at our playing squad, we undoubtedly have some good individuals but many of them really don’t suit each others styles. I could go through in detail but i’ll just leave Lukaku as probably the best example. Prolific goalscorer in the right set-up but really needs the ball played over the top to turn defenders around or crosses delivered from wide.
A DoF, as has been the case at City, would say “right, this is how we want to play” and then recruit the necessary players (sometimes with input from the manager)
People overlook the fact that Pep really is an out-and-out Coach, as I believe was Jose. They want to do all their work on the training ground, they are hands-on with the players, they obsess over tactical details and demand their players follow instructions to the tee. What they need help with is recruitment and running the footballing elements that are not directly related to what happens on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon.
Usually in this country, after results, we use signings as the only real way of assessing a managers performance. Having a DoF pretty much takes all of that Championship Manager wheeler-dealer nonsense away
That's exactly what happened, SAF was in charge of everything and one of his talent was to know how to delegate and oversee. For what its worth you will rarely hear about managers on the continent, it's a very british thing.
In hindsight, going from Moyes to LVG to Mourinho is a really bizarre, dysfunctional process of recruitment that speaks volumes about the lack of footballing nous of the decision-makers at the club - I say that as someone who was very much in favor of the latter two.
I made that point at the time. There is no continuity in terms of approach, LVG and Mourinho will use different type of players and LVG prefers to use young players because they are more malleable. Going from one to the other means that you almost inevitably force an overall.
A DoF can be great. It can also be very, very dangerous. If you hire the wrong manager you are likely to replace him within a few years. A DoF can hide behind the coach for a longer period of time and we can end up with poor management for a longer time period. You can even imagine a situation where we hire a good manager that gets undermined by a poor DoF.
We do not know that much about any of the candidates we are looking at it. Having a head of recruitment and development makes sense. While you would want someone with more football knowledge between Ed and the manager (and independent from the manager), I´m not sold on the idea that he should be in charge of the manager/coach. Rather he should;
- Be in charge of the scouting department (evaluate, hire and fire) and use (structure and organize) the information they provide to support the manager and the acadamy (Nicky Butt),
- Stay up to date on innovations, new ideas and relevant changes within the game and present them to the manager, acadamy or Ed,
- Identify possible manager options at any given time. Ensure that we have all the relevant information about them.
- In general he should provide support to CEO, manager and acadamy and tie them together.
Most companies of this size have a business developer-department. I think that is what we need.
From reading your post it goes along with what I have been thinking for months, that when we hire the DoF it will one of the most important in our history and we need to get it smack on.
This will make a significant difference in us getting back among the elite or falling further behind. Can you please explain what a "business developer-department" is mate?
Did David Gill know much about footballing decisions?
The way I see it, I wouldn't have minded giving Jose full control if his philosophy and plans actually matched with Manchester United.
Get a manager who embodies United, surround him with the proper people and give him the freedom to run the club as he sees fit, that's what I'll say.
Again, this type of manager doesn't really exist. It's a bit like suggesting to purchase a Lionel Messi, you might stumble on one but you don't plan or organize your club with that in mind.
There is no manager out there whose philosophy is in line with the club?
How sure are we that the DOF we get in will be the right fit? And how responsible will they be, if things don't go right? Who'd be the most important man at the club, the manager or the DOF?
No, there is no actual manager out there. You have head coaches but you are not going to find someone that runs a club like SAF or Wenger were doing.
As for the rest, there is no more important man than the CEO, outside of the owners, the rest is a team effort. You determine whether the candidates are suitable by talking to them during interviews, the responsibilities of the DOF are determined by the board as it is with every other employee and it is linked to the qualities of the flaws of the entire structure.
It's a somewhat outdated system that relies entirely on an absolutely amazing manager who can handle everything both on and off the field, while also being able to stay at the one club and keep them at the top for significant periods of time. SAF could do it because...well, he was SAF. An absolute once-off that has a serious claim on being the best of all time. Even somebody like Wenger who was also able to do it once upon a time ultimately lost touch and couldn't keep up with how things were changing.
Not many managers these days would even want to have to handle everything themselves, as they aren't expected to do it elsewhere and don't have the experience of having to do it. Mourinho was one of the few who probably fancied himself able to do it (indeed I'm pretty sure that was one of the reasons he always wanted our job), but he ultimately failed. Most of them focus on the on-field stuff, putting in place the tactics and the man-management to get their players playing at their best. Obviously they should work with the DoF in terms of what players they feel they need as well, but that's about it. As they prove themselves suitable for the job that influence on the transfers would probably increase as well, but we really need to get rid of what we've had where we've allowed each manager to go out and sign completely different types of players that have left us somewhat all over the place.
I think one of the reasons Sir Alex was good at being a manager is that he himself grew as he made the club bigger. He grew into every challenge and accepted them when they happened and that enabled him to control everything better in my opinion.
Regarding the part in bold I think we will learn from the mistakes of the post Sir Alex years as long as we bring in a good quality DoF and leave him do his job properly.
Yep. I'm not sure if even a young SAF would have been able to walk into how we are now and do it.
LVG tried and he said managing our club is more than a job for one man.
Perhaps this is why the club suffered so much after SAF retired. In those last 2-3 years under SAF the club didn't find a gem or two in the transfer market nor unearth world beaters from the academy like in the 90s. Perhaps the club should have hired a DoF/restructured around the turn of the decade as the game was shifting, and allowed SAF to be manager first and foremost and work with hired football men on an inevitable transition period.
What I think the club should have done to prepare better for Sir Alex retirement was brought someone in as sort of a 'shadow' DoF. By this I mean for the last of year or 2 of Sir Alex' reign they should have had their potential DoF in as an observer.
He should have analysed what Sir Alex did at the club to make us compete so well for so long.
He should have been constantly there observing Sir Alex methods and asking him as many questions as possible to gather as much information as possible from Sir Alex before taking over as full DoF when Sir Alex retired.
If this happened I dont think we would have had to puy up with such crap. Although I am glad we have Ole now
Arsenal did this with Arsene. They replaced a number of his backroom staff while he was in his last 18 months, most notably bringing in Sanllehi as technical director and Mislintat as head of recruitment. By that time, Arsene had lost so much support that it made it much easier for Arsenal to pull this off.
Sir Alex would've never gone for either one of these scenarios. If either of these had occurred, he would've retired not of his own accord but because the club was imposing changes on him. This would've made life incredibly difficult for whoever the poor sap brought in to be the DoF or shadow DoF or whatever.
Thanks for letting me know that.
I was completely unaware of the situation occurring at Arsenal.
Seems as if it worked to some degree as they seem to be in a good position now and brought in some potentially good youngsters in Lucas Torreira, Matteo Guendouzi, and the vastly experienced Lichtsteiner who I heard somewhere has had a big influence in the dressing room.
Regarding the part about Sir Alex, I could see you're point as he may have taken it as they were trying to undermine him.
Any news on this? I thought we will move quickly on this after Mourinho's dismissal
My hunch is, the person who are after are still in a job and can’t announce them. Also, whoever it is, probably already making recommendations on a new manager and players etc.
Not the best source but they do have good journos like Sam Lee etc.
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He resigned this week, apparently.
interesting. Stoffelshaus just stepped down as Lok Moscows sporting director yesterday.
Here's the Goal article, I also found a German article about him from today but couldn't get google to translate.
Some real heavy hitters competing for his signature.
Doesn't seem very convincing
Stoffelhaus seems like someone who has built up numerous contacts around the world. The Huddersfield link was probably due to German compatriot David Wagner who probably recognised the potential of Stoffelhaus.
Is the Russian team he left even successful domestically? Isn't one of the Russian sides I have heard much about in recent yesrs
sounds like bollocks
Should be Paul Mitchell.
He was at Lokomotiv Moscow for 2 years and they won a cup and league title. Their title success was their third in their history after a long wait. The 48 year old German was hugely successful i'd say.
Paul Mitchell can work under the German as head of recruitment. Mitchell has no experience as a DoF..
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