Managing England: The Impossible Job

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Matty7, Jun 17, 2018.

  1. Jun 17, 2018
    #1

    Matty7 Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Messages:
    298
    Was on BBC 2 this evening. Did anyone else give it a watch?

    I thought it was great and gave a good insight into the press vs Manager aspect. It’s got me more hyped and into the mood for tomorrow’s game too!
  2. Jun 17, 2018
    #2

    Neo_Mufc Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,680
    I missed the first 15mins but it was an interesting watch. Kind of put me on a downer watching all those teams and managers fail.

    What I like about Gareth is that he just plodded along in terms of qualification and friendlies. I don't feel that "huge" manager status around him and whenever the media try to get at him he seems to diffuse situations calmly.

    He has a clean slate to work with and the tactics genuinely look improved.

    I genuinely feel he will surprise the Country in this World Cup. Is this the Tournament where we can reach the semis? It most definitely can be but I will most certainly not be discouraged if we get knocked out in the 1/4s playing the right way. Tomorrow is going to be our first indication of how we settle into this tournament.
  3. Jun 18, 2018
    #3

    Timdbro Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,745
    That's the thing isn't it, that's a bit different now. We've finally gotten past that last bit of post-golden generation expectation of "we could win this!". I know the players are sort of talking about their "belief" all the time, but they have to say that - most fans and even the media seem to be a lot more cautious these days. I think most people (or at least most people who watch football) would take a decent run and some progress in terms of playing style and forging an identity.
  4. Jun 18, 2018
    #4

    HorrorFan07 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    72
    Glenn Hoddle is an absolute weapon.

    He believed in so-called faith healer Eileen Drewery and believes disabled people are paying for sins in previous lives.. he HAD to go, even back in those days when the World was less PC.

    The way Rio talked about him you'd think he was the second coming.. he flopped in his 3 managerial stints after England his last in 2006. Bobby Robson was much better.

    I'm shocked ITV still employ him.. and Ron Atkinson can't get another gig since his racism slur. Certainly double standards here.. is insulting disabled people not the same as racism to black people!?

    Big Sam will be the next man people will say "England would've win it if he stayed!" in 20 years time. History has a funny way of making some people better without doing anything.
  5. Jun 18, 2018
    #5

    Neo_Mufc Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,680
    If we can show that we have moved away from the rigid formations and naïve tactics, I'll quite happily take getting knocked out in the quarters knowing it's progress in the making and expect that bit more in the Euros.
  6. Jun 18, 2018
    #6

    Jippy Sleeps with tramps, bangs jacuzzis, dirty shoes Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    42,189
    Location:
    Jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams
    It was an interesting programme. Rio seriously hated Capello after initially being elated he was picked. No butter on your bread?

    Sad how Keegan was so out of his death. Looking back, and we all know this, the viciousness in the media around Sir Bobby, Glenn, McLaren, all of them tbh is deplorable.
  7. Jun 18, 2018
    #7

    Jippy Sleeps with tramps, bangs jacuzzis, dirty shoes Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    42,189
    Location:
    Jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams
    What did you think of the fact Rio thought Hoddle was the best England boss he had and he wasn't forced into weirdness?
  8. Jun 18, 2018
    #8

    Green_Red Full Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Messages:
    6,492
    I didnt see the documentary but Ill vpn in later and watch it if its on bbc iplayer.

    One thing I like about Southgate, which probably hasnt happened for yous before, is that no one is getting in on reputation only, and he is willing to play people in a system that fits them rather than doing a "Scholes on left" just to get the big names in there.

    If all goes to plan this could be a good year for yous.
  9. Jun 18, 2018
    #9

    Mockney Not the only poster to be named Poster of the Year

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    38,277
    Location:
    Editing my own posts.
    I did wonder whether Winter was deliberately playing up to the cartoon media villain role, or whether he was just that unselfaware of how he was coming across.
  10. Jun 18, 2018
    #10

    GifLord The gif that keeps on giffing

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    10,995
    Location:
    LALALAND
  11. Jun 18, 2018
    #11

    SteveJ all-round nice guy, aka Uncle Joe Kardashian Scout

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    55,300
    Location:
    The Land of Twits
    The very people claiming that it's the impossible job are the ones who make it impossible.
  12. Jun 18, 2018
    #12

    reelworld Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2001
    Messages:
    7,352
    Location:
    Mexico City, Mexico
    This is what I think as well. Regarding Hoddle, as lunatic as he is, I think the last time England played any decent football was World Cup 1998. Everything after that was pure shit on stick
  13. Jun 18, 2018
    #13

    CA_vampire Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2017
    Messages:
    768
    Location:
    California
    Is managing Italy or Spain easier?
  14. Jun 18, 2018
    #14

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2010
    Messages:
    38,638
    Location:
    C-137
    Supports:
    Free Speech
    That's an insult to sir Bobby!
  15. Jun 18, 2018
    #15

    simplyared Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    somewhere ouside the UK
    Joe Mercer caretaker England manager 1974. Did a fantastic job! Just for the record!
  16. Jun 18, 2018
    #16

    RoyH1 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    1,913
    Location:
    DKNY
    At least for Itally historically, and Spain in the modern era, you have better players at your disposal.

    The problem with the England job, is that the media pressure you have is equaled perhaps only by the Brazil job, but no Romario, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho or Neymar. It's absolute madness. This current England team is the first one I can remember since the 90 vintage that didn't come with huge hype arround them. That's why I think Southgate has a shot at doing something good. Fi
  17. Jun 18, 2018
    #17

    Revaulx Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,293
    Location:
    Saddleworth
    This!

    The three up front of Channon, Keegan and Worthington was a joy to behold. Then they went and appointed Don Revie :mad:
  18. Jun 18, 2018
    #18

    Jippy Sleeps with tramps, bangs jacuzzis, dirty shoes Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    42,189
    Location:
    Jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams
    It was odd when he was going on about seeing McLaren's wife at a conference where he was being shredded and saying 'you have to remember they are human and have families'. Presumably that was just a fleeting moment of clarity before he went back in full cnut mode.

    His excuse was weird- he was saying he was misquoted, but not really denying the message conveyed. Was hard to fathom out what he was on about. Was interesting to see how much Rio loved him though...and how much he hated Capello.
  19. Jun 18, 2018
    #19

    simplyared Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    somewhere ouside the UK
    He replaced Stan Bowles (another very talented footballer) for Worthington. Mercer's England team was imo the most exciting we've ever put out on paper.
  20. Jun 18, 2018
    #20

    Bill.s.preston Fluffybunnykins - needs to bulk up (with cake!)

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    22,859
    Location:
    wouldst thou like to live deliciously?
    That's a bit harsh.

    I didn't think much of the programme to be honest, but the overlying message that the tabloid press are absolute weapons can't really be argued with. It's a shame hoddle was a loon, as Rio said, he was employing tactics in 1998 that are becoming mainstream now and it was genuinely the last time we looked free flowing and confident in our football on a regular basis.
  21. Jun 18, 2018
    #21

    MoskvaRed Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2013
    Messages:
    3,313
    What came across from the programme was a series of missed opportunities - Robson being pushed out just as England had their best tournament for many years, Venables ditto, Hoddle getting fired for reasons unconnected to football, the talented 2006 squad being entrusted to a championship level manager.
  22. Jun 18, 2018
    #22

    buchansleftleg Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,830
    Location:
    Manchester
    I felt sorry for Allardyce too - he made a fair point. Hoddle actually dug his own grave because he continued to go on several programmes and do several interviews where he tried to defend his position on reincarnation.

    He did not just offer up an apology. He tried to convince everyone that was not what he meant. Allardyce was bundled out of the FA in the back of a land rover a few hours after the release of the tapes.

    Will be interesting to see if Southgate hurried that process along - will probably come out when he loses the job.

    Don Revie casts a long shadow over this as the FA was so badly burned by his match fixing allegations and greed that they avoided picking managers with an "entrepreneurial" approach like Clough and Venables (the first occasion he was linked to the job after Robson left).

    Robson Venables and Clough are the few English managers to have achieved success in European football. All of them should have been backed to the hilt by the FA but they were all treated appallingly by them.
  23. Jun 18, 2018
    #23

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    32,637
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Managers of all the top nations deal with the same thing. I don't like the idea that there are problems unique to us.
    Has anyone even bothered to look at the circus around the Brazilian NT?
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
  24. Jun 18, 2018
    #24

    Cheesy Bread with dipping sauce Scout

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    34,683
    Location:
    Scotland
    It's interesting to look back on Capello in retrospect.

    I remember a lot of people praising his disciplined approach in the lead-up to 2010...he was seen as reigning in a lot of the big personalities, and as having focused them on the football instead of the usual circus with wives, girlfriends etc. But once England crashed out, and looking back now, a lot of measures seemed unnecessarily draconian, as if denying the players any form of fun was going to help them win the World Cup or come close to doing so.
  25. Jun 18, 2018
    #25

    duffer Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's Scout

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2004
    Messages:
    31,116
    Location:
    Chelsea fan.
    He was talking about how he believed in karma and reincarnation. The interviewer said "so that means you think disabled people are being punished for their former lives?" and Hoddle said something like "well, yes. That's how it works". The headlines were all about him saying people in wheelchairs deserved to be there.

    I don't personally believe in karmic reincarnation but there's a fecking shitload of people worldwide who do. He's a strange guy (not for this particular belief) but I still think his sacking was incredibly harsh.
  26. Jun 18, 2018
    #26

    Dundrummer Guest

    Capello was the man responsible for Gareth Barry's reign of terror in an England shirt, and that's what he should be remembered for above all else.
  27. Jun 18, 2018
    #27

    balaks Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2014
    Messages:
    5,902
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    Supports:
    Tottenham Hotspur
    I really enjoyed it.
  28. Jun 18, 2018
    #28

    shamans Hoser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    11,546
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    England fans really think their football is so special and unique. Have you looked at other countries? Brazil Argentina Mexico even Spain they all have an unfair media circus around them
  29. Jun 18, 2018
    #29

    MoskvaRed Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2013
    Messages:
    3,313
    To the point of running undercover sting operations? I doubt it.
  30. Jun 18, 2018
    #30

    Jippy Sleeps with tramps, bangs jacuzzis, dirty shoes Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    42,189
    Location:
    Jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams
    He was a great manager, but a difficult personality. That is a long time to live like a spartan and the no butter on bread thing seemed rather overboard.
    Still a bit baffled how he got onto that subject in the first place though tbh. The faith healer woman was odd too, but yeah, would have been interesting to see where he could've taken that team.
  31. Jun 18, 2018
    #31

    Cheesy Bread with dipping sauce Scout

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    34,683
    Location:
    Scotland
    Plus he was probably stagnating towards his later years as the game changed and his tactical approach became more of a thing of the past. His best years (for the most part) were over by the time he took the England job.
  32. Jun 18, 2018
    #32

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    20,344
    I read that the players hated him and found his ultra aggressive demeanor odd and insincere because it was put on for effect.

    Capello and his all Italian team gathering to watch all Italy's games n the camp with the passion and noise you would expect also had an alienating effect.

    I think that is a big reason why we will never have a foreign manager again.
  33. Jun 18, 2018
    #33

    Hansa Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2017
    Messages:
    883
    Even though it was a pretty big deal even back then (but as you say, maybe a bit harsh), imagine today's Twitterati going to town on him.
  34. Jun 18, 2018
    #34

    cyberman Full Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    14,671
    Southgate is being clever about this. There's a movement in England that's starting to seep through that states if you're trying to play good football then its as good as winning a trophy. For some reason the actual winning and losing doesn't really matter unless its an unavoidable debate brought by a woeful run of form.
    Set up 3 at the back with inadequate defenders protected by an uninspired midfield and try to play the ball out.
    It buys you all the time in the world even though it hasn't a hope of standing up to the bigger sides as the tournament progresses.
  35. Jun 18, 2018
    #35

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    32,637
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Sacking a manager for believing in reincarnation is bollocks...even in 2018.
  36. Jun 18, 2018
    #36

    Jezpeza New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2018
    Messages:
    229
    Being an England Player or Manger has always Been a bit of a poisoned chalice. I agree with lots of the comments on here about us squeezing players in etc rather than playing a sustenance fitting players into that.
    I think the expectation is much dropped nowadays however which may allow everyone to play with a bit moe freedom.
    A lot of the other big teams don't seem to be in amazing form based on what we've seen so far so if we have a good tournament we may have a chance to get towards the latter stages, who knows?
    Then again Tunisia aren't going to just roll over later, would like to see everyone's views if we get beat or held later?
  37. Jun 18, 2018
    #37

    crossy1686 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,530
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Not sure it was a sacking based on reincarnation, it was more that he confirmed that due to his beliefs, disabled people in this life were paying for things they did in a former life. That is bang out of order for someone who's England manager to say.
  38. Jun 18, 2018
    #38

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    32,637
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Yeah, that's out of order.
  39. Jun 18, 2018
    #39

    Hansa Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2017
    Messages:
    883
    They did? :lol: Man, talk about flunking in psychology 101.
  40. Jun 18, 2018
    #40

    Zlatattack Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    3,510
    I might be wrong, but isn't what Hoddle thought similar to hinduism or buddhism?