McGuane: The Reverse Fabregas

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Pogue Mahone, Feb 5, 2018.

  1. Feb 5, 2018
    #1

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Are moves like this for the best? A better education for future England stars? Or a damning indictment of the lack of career progression for up and coming players at top English academies?
  2. Feb 5, 2018
    #2

    GloryHunter07 Full Member

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    Both, i think.

    Getting experience of a different style of football is most likely very helpfull but ultimately young players need games wherever thhey go.
  3. Feb 5, 2018
    #3

    Thunderhead Full Member

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    yep this, the huge sums of money involved now means managers (with the odd exception) won't or can't afford to throw youngsters in unless they're at the level of someone at 24/25. The u23 experiment hasn't worked one bit from what I can see.
  4. Feb 5, 2018
    #4

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    I don't buy into the lack of career progression thing. Chelsea get loads of stick for it, but if the players coming through were good enough to play for Chelsea, they would play for Chelsea. The opportunities are there, it's just that you have to be a pretty special talent to take them. A number of Chelsea's youngsters are on loan and getting games at professional clubs, some at a pretty high level. The career progression is there for anyone committed and talented enough to take it.

    I think City are the only club you can accuse of shutting off any route for young players, in spite of the wave of propaganda articles proclaiming the opposite that were floating around last year. It's still not really a direct criticism. Just if you spend £50m on a player for nearly every individual area on the pitch, there's not really any room for anyone else, even if they might be good enough to deserve a chance. You don't spend that money on players to put a youth team player in ahead of them.
  5. Feb 5, 2018
    #5

    BootsyCollins Full Member

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    The problem for me is not that young players dont get games for the first team. McGuane will not get games for Barca week in and week out either.
    Its the system thats really bad in England, and other places.
    They need to have reserve teams in the lower leagues. Like the article states, he will play for Barca B and play in a pro league.
  6. Feb 5, 2018
    #6

    Ibi Dreams Full Member

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    I don't necessarily disagree with your main point, but you only have to look as far as Salah and De Bruyne to see two players who were good enough and didn't get the chances they needed
  7. Feb 5, 2018
    #7

    2cents Full Member

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    Can only be a good thing really, English footballing culture has been far too insular for so long, from the lack of young players willing to consider the move abroad, to the few big stars who have but invariably disappoint to a certain extent while making comical attempts to learn the language, to the managers who seem to exhibit little interest in alternative cultures. If even a small generation of talented British players receive a more rounded footballing education on the continent then there is the potential that their experiences will resonate on a broader level in English football.
  8. Feb 5, 2018
    #8

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    They weren't good enough at the time, and I'd argue it definitely hasn't stopped or stunted them in progressing their careers. Both are now playing for top teams among the best in the world. It's Chelsea who have lost out by not willing to be patient, rather than the players.

    If teams just weren't allowing these players to have a chance either with them or another club then that's different, but that's not really the case.

    Arsenal even right now have Iwobi in their team. That guy with the silly tash who they've started playing at full back. Wilshere, Ramsey. United have Rashford, Mctominay, Lingard, Spurs have half a team full. Liverpool have basically made their fullback positions into audition roles for young players. There is loads of opportunity. The problem is that the level required to take it is pretty high, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing as if someone has the right approach it will push them harder to wanting to reach that level.
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  9. Feb 5, 2018
    #9

    mav_9me Full Member

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    Salah, KDB are older examples. Christensen is getting games now but their fans have felt he was ready a while ago. Could RLC not have been given game time as a squad player.

    I feel while many of the youth players may not be first 11 material, quite a few of them can be better used as squad players than continually buying half decent squad players like Zapacotta (whatever his spelling) etc.
  10. Feb 5, 2018
    #10

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    Agree with this though I can't see it happening in England where lower league football is lauded quite highly. To be fair we are not helping ourselves much by not participating in the Checkatrade Trophy.
  11. Feb 5, 2018
    #11

    Nick7 Full Member

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    I don't see why the move isn't for the best. Same thing as foreign players going to England as youngsters.
  12. Feb 5, 2018
    #12

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    Salah and KDB are two of the best players in the league. It is very difficult to argue that Chelsea have obstructed their career progression.

    None of these players are being denied career paths or having their career path obstructed...unless their career path involves them not wanting to play for any team except Chelsea.
  13. Feb 5, 2018
    #13

    limerickcitykid There once was a kid from Toronto...

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    I remember seeing him for Ireland u17s and thinking he wasn't much good especially for being one of the few from a top academy. Then he changed his name and switched to England.
  14. Feb 5, 2018
    #14

    RooneyLegend Full Member

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    They weren't really given a chance. After the Bremen loan KDB only managed 152 mins of gametime in the first half of the 13/14 season, that's not a chance. Salah was sold immediately after the Fiorentina loan where he had done really well. It didn't stun their progression because they didn't hang around the place twiddling their fingers like some other players, especially the academy players.
  15. Feb 5, 2018
    #15

    JB7 Full Member

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    I totally agree with us not participating in it. It is a terrible competition and I for one would not be happy with us fielding a side in it.
  16. Feb 5, 2018
    #16

    Boycott Full Member

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    Copying my post from the other thread:

  17. Feb 5, 2018
    #17

    Kostur Full Member

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    They weren't though. They would be now, sure, back then, no.
  18. Feb 5, 2018
    #18

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    Conte wanted another CB in the summer and was is 'surprised' by how good Christensen when he had to play him. Conte should start Hudson Odoi tonight if there was any justice. Chelsea were abject against Bournemouth and he put in a very good cameo. That said, Conte is giving young players a chance this season more than some others, but that is because of Roman tightening the purse strings.
  19. Feb 5, 2018
    #19

    Pete Dahh Sneak New Member

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    Salah for sure wasn’t. De Bruyne pissed was at odds with Jose but was definitely more talented than Schurrle/Ramires.
  20. Feb 5, 2018
    #20

    ThatsGreat New Member

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    Arsenal have at least 3 midfielders ahead of him in the youth, AMN(who plays best at center-mid inspite of being used as a lb - he's the guy with the tache), Willock, DaSilva. Makes sense for him to jump ship. Doubt the club wanted to keep him or they'd have tried harder. The one talent that Arsenal need to keep is Nelson - got one year left on his deal after the summer. Trouble is that he's best mates with Sancho, and would definitely have his head turned at Sancho becoming a first team regular.
    Also don't buy the logic that with the increasing stakes, youth development will not get preference. For teams like Arsenal/Liverpool/Spurs that can't compete with the Manchester clubs financially youth development takes much more precedence, as its about the only way they can keep up without spending a kings ransom every summer. Where would spurs have been without Kane, Winks, Rose, Trippier that came through their system and even Walker, Alli who were youth purchases.
  21. Feb 5, 2018
    #21

    Zlatattack Full Member

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    It's hard for clubs to give players chances. If Everyone else is fielding 11 grown men, seasoned internationals - can you really go through the course of a season with two rough 19 year olds in your side? Unless those guys are exceptionally good (Rashford, Rooney) - it's unlikely to happen. I sometimes wonder why the mid table clubs don't - some of them are too good for relegation but won't amount to much else all season. Fergie had a good approach where he used to give them time in the cup competitions, but with 6 teams actively hunting trophies nowadays, there are plenty of managers who'll settle for a trophy to keep their job.

    We need to think about B teams in a competitive league, but do it in a way that doesn't harm the championship, league 1 and league 2.

    Maybe we could have a new league below league 2 and have the B teams go into there. 3 teams get promoted every season into league 2, can go as far as the championship. Maybe you can only have a B team if you've been in the premier league for 10 years.
  22. Feb 5, 2018
    #22

    Zlatattack Full Member

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    Don't blame the young players. Lookman was sat waiting for games at Everton when they were crying out for widemen, he's scored at RB leipzig.
  23. Feb 5, 2018
    #23

    ThatsGreat New Member

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    Not blaming the young players at all. Just explaining why Mcguane chose to leave, it wasn't because youth development isn't a priority for Arsenal, its because we had better players than him in that position. And isn't Lookman on loan, he's still an everton player.
  24. Feb 5, 2018
    #24

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    If you hang around twiddling your fingers when you are good enough to play elsewhere, who is it that's holding up your career, really?

    Chelsea have players on loan all the time. They have players playing at other premiership clubs now. They don't just leave them all rotting in the reserves. They train them and then help give them the opportunity to make a career for themselves. They aren't handing things out on a silver plate but then neither is anyone else, and nor should they be. Part of where and how succesful a player ends up is always going to be down to the player.

    The problem with a lot of this is this greater and greater sense of entitlement that is given to players. Because a player is on a clubs books, they are now entitled to a career there or to be given chances. This aas never the case before. And yet at the same time if the team finish 2nd in one of the toughest leagues in the world, the manager potentially looses his job. The two don't go together.


    Chelsea not giving young players a chance would be Chelsea saying "feck It, were not train ing any of these youngsters anymore. Were not going to loan them out and get them games and experience at a professional level. That's it" ...they're not doing that at all.
  25. Feb 5, 2018
    #25

    DannyCAFC Full Member

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    The luxury Barca have over teams like Arsenal and Chelsea when trying to bring youth through is the league structure in Spain. Having B teams means Barca get to keep their youngsters at home under the development of their own coaching staff and techniques, but also give them regular high level football in the Spanish equivalent of the Chanpionship.

    The risk you have with that though is increasingly the gap in the lack of competitiveness between the top and the rest. Not only can the elite afford to buy the best players on the market, they now have all the resources and environment to produce the best too.

    I don’t want to see a B team structure, but for the reasons I listed it is optimal for producing the best possible players. I would like to see these youngsters engage their brains a bit more when choosing clubs and think about the careee path and the chance of actual minutes on the pitch in senior football, and the way that these coaches are going to nurture them. Chelsea players for example you could say get plenty of minutes because they all get tossed out on loan, but where’s the actual development plan? It’s basically ‘go to these random different clubs season after season, be spectacular and we might give you a chance’. Too many are running to the allure of money and stature that the top sides offer and not thinking about much else.

    Thankfully with the likes of Sancho, Willock, Crowley and now to a degree McGuane, we are seeing a shift in thought process and players branching outside of the norm and outside of their confort zones in order to pursue better development prospects. Hopefully they all do well and provide an eye-opener for future generations.
  26. Feb 5, 2018
    #26

    RooneyLegend Full Member

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    They send them out on loan, even if they do, do well, they might keep them in the squad for the season and still not play them as De Bruyne found out. I agree with you that players should prioritize their own development over everything. It doesn't make sense for RLC to only be playing his first real season in prem football at the age of 22. The issue with Chelsea is they'll still go out and sign a Ross Barkley despite having RLC on their books. After Ake did really well on loan they brought him back midway through the season and quite simply didn't play him in favour of the exceptionally mediocre Cahill.
    These clubs are pretty hopeless at incorporating youngsters into their teams. Due to demands for performance and an every growing appetite for new signings with bulging pockets there quite clearly isn't a plan for the young players they have. No matter how talented the players are, there's no cleat pathway to the first team.

    The biggest issue with academy players is most of them want to play for the club they developed at. It's only sensible to believe that these players would like to be senior chelsea players. Chalobah said as much when he was being questioned about why he's staying at a club that clearly has no intention of giving him serious game time. Compare the Chelsea approach to that of Sir Alex and it's night and day. The whole support could be singing Fletch is trash and he'd play him, even when he under-performed. At the end of it we ended up with a useful player that contributed a lot to our most successful period ever.
  27. Feb 5, 2018
    #27

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    We don't have to create extra leagues just to cater to the whims of big clubs who "can't afford" to invest in youth development and give talented prospects games. A club doesn't need to give games to their young prospects. But they shouldn't keep them rotting in the reserves. Let them go elsewhere, and if you want the finished product later, pay top dollar.
  28. Feb 5, 2018
    #28

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    Aye, it's a bit of a weird one as he hasn't been considered in the very top bracket of English talent coming through. It will be interesting to what he can do in Spain. Made a sub appearance for Barca B at the weekend.
  29. Feb 5, 2018
    #29

    JSArsenal Full Member

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    This was surprising because
    the club had just done a video featuring him and six other youngsters the magnificent seven.

    It looks like we've got the same problem at youth level that we do with the senior side. Willock's contract expired. McGuane only had a few months left (or a year or so). Reiss Nelson's contract is also running out.

    He was highly rated but I don't watch much youth football, nor did he feature in the first team prominently so I don't have much of a view.

    Whether his lack of relative game time was due to the fact he was planning to leave or that Wenger rates the likes of Joe Willock and AMN higher, I'm not sure. I don't think much of Willock but love AMN

    If there is one club where if you're good enough, you'll play, its Arsenal. Hell, if there's one club that will give you an opportunity to see if you're good enough, its Arsenal. That was an absolute truth but lately Wenger's become much more risk adverse. Hopefully we start seeing a lot more youngsters in the team once we get out of this rut.
  30. Feb 6, 2018
    #30

    ThatsGreat New Member

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    Yeah, the op says that Barca got him for his physical qualities. I'm guessing thats because they've already have an abundance of skilled mfs. Arsenal would obviously be more interested in technical midfielders, as the youth system believes that learning that aspect of the game is more important for youth, and physicality can be built later. I certain remember Wilshere being built like a fairy, when he broke through. Now he looks like a middleweight boxer.
    Yeah, that was a monumental goof up, maybe they were trying to get him to extend by promising to make him a movie star.