Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Rado_N, Jan 20, 2015.
Isn't heading and jumping really the same thing
FM begs to differ.
Messi is at least as good as Ronaldo at Off ball movement.
The movement Messi does during the whole play to end alone in the box at the exact moment and place to score just shows how good he is at it. He's able to "dissapear" in the caos and appear out of nowhere to finish the play. In Argentina, people who don't understand football quite well criticize Messi saying that "He doesn't run on the field, he's always walking". You don't need to run the whole time. That goal is a masterclass about when to run, in order to make an impact.
That’s actually a fair comment imo. I’d say mascherano/their defense had debatably as good a wc 2014 as Messi as well.
I was going to say the same, how would it be possible to score absolute shitloads of goals over such a long time without having good movement off the ball?
So Ronaldo won 2017 despite the Messi fans crying over the last couple of months of the year.
2018 has just begun...
Timing fell right for Ronnie. He was crap for the first half of the last two seasons now. But managed to hit form at the right time last season to sneak the awards. It's arguably a Real v Barca award these days anyway
Timing being Ronaldo turned it on in the key part of the season whereas Messi went missing.
i knew something like this was the case but seeing it is just too funny. literally most of his assists are missed headers, fluffed shots, rebounds off the keeper etc
As much as i like Rolando the difference between him and Messi boils down to this: one has enormous talent, the other enormous will to work on himself. One is a god, the other just a super human.
Ronaldo and Messi are very comparable as strikers. The difference is Messi is a better xavi than xavi and a better iniesta than iniesta.
People talk about Ronaldo being more complete because he's good in the air. The reality is Messi is almost complete at worlds greatest level. He's a phenomenon at almost everything.
Well maybe that's more a personal opinion in this case, Ronaldo is better at Jumping (not a chance Messi could beat him unless he had de legs of Zamorano) but at the rest, they're both great headers and off ball players, it just happens to be that Messi's height disadvantage makes him try less headers, and his desire to play with the ball hides his off ball movement, but I'd give any creative player credit on his off ball movement, because it's what makes them be able to receive the ball free, and look for other free people on the pitch.
But again, this I guess is a biased debate
Ay, that's because as everyone, I keep jumping or changing the standard of the GOAT debate like we've done for decades, from our Eurocentric point of view, no one comes close to Messi because Pelé didn't play here, and despite Ronaldo's career matching Messi in almost every stat performance-wise, general opinion is that he doesn't have the qualities that the former top 2 (Pelé and Maradona) had, Messi has always been considered in their level on skill, and that's why Müller (who was never touted against the other 2) comes into debate when we talk about Ronaldo, and as I said, maybe everyone underrated Müller, I don't know, but that's another topic.
And Maradona, yeah, he won a UEFA, that's not enough to be there, I had to point out I was talking about UCL titles or at least reaching final stages, not just losing in both his first legs. Otherwise Ronaldo would become relevant again for the throne due to his Cup's winner Cup and UEFA titles, but those are not top level tournaments.
You seriously going to compare Messi’s heading to Ronaldo?
You can argue that Messi is a good header for his height, but that’s it, he’s nowhere comparable to Ronaldo in terms of heading.
Ronaldo is better at dribbling for his height than Messi is heading for his lack of height.
Right now Messi is the better player but if the end of the season comes and Messi fails to show up in the CL and World Cup while Ronaldo does that will change. It makes no sense to judge them solely on how consistently good their performances are when the 2 bigger competitions of the season aren’t won by being consistent.
In terms of their whole career I’d put Ronaldo ahead so far because I believe he’s outperformed him both in the Champions League and internationally but Messi is in better form, he’s 2 years younger and he has everything to change that. If he has an historically great WC and Ronaldo flops that would 100% do it, if he has a CL campign like in 2010-11 or 2014-15 that would most likely do it too.
The matches they’ll play in the months of June and July will be bigger for them than what happens in the next 2 or 3 years outside of it.
Scoring a goal whilst completely unmarked makes him great at heading?
Apart from biased comments, you change the discussion to suit and/or don't reply to people.
Your previous post said no one comes close to Messi and I asked you about certain categories (where Ronaldo has more) which you just ignored and wrote an essay.
Then you try and diminish Maradona because he hasn't one a European title (even though he has) and that he helped his team-mates .... he dragged Napoli to the title. On top of that, while Argentina 86 had some good players, no-one could argue that Maradona wasn't an absolute key member and they wouldn't have won it without him..... unlike other times when Argentina needed someone to do that?
And the height comments....
P.S. before the inevitable argument/pro-Messi comments, I think Messi is one of the best players I've ever seen but when people say silly things and/or inaccurate stat comments, you'll get pulled
Do I need to argue about that?, he's 170cm, can you name any player better at headers than him at 170? Salas was 172, and then you start finding legit headers like Larsson at 175 or Zamorano at 178, both were considered "exceptional headers for such small height" and they have 5 and 8 cm on Messi, for his height he's a great header, maybe the best ever if you look at players <170cm
What makes him great at heading is the heading technique, while he's not a heading threat like Ronaldo due to his lack of cm's and lower mass centre (worse air time and stability), he marks the times of a header and is able to direct it as a specialist.
We're not talking about contested headers here, he's at a huge disadvantage that would be almost impossible to overcome due to his body, but the technique behind the headers? It's comparable to Ronaldo when they're unmarked.
As for "Ronaldo is better at dribbling for his height than Messi is heading for his lack of height." Maybe you can tell me about 170cm players better than Messi or comparable at heading, you know good dribblers around Ronaldo's height? Benzema, Bergkamp, Henry, Cantona, Kane, Ronaldo, Rivaldo...
I didn't ignore it, you said Ronaldo was better at Jumping, heading and off the ball movement, I said that Ronaldo was better at Jumping, and in headers/off the ball movement I considered them equal, Messi is a great header, he just can't exploit it enough because 1) He's 170cm and 2) He's not a target man in the area, but if you let him take 10 headers inside the area, they will take goal the same amount and dangerous directions Ronaldo's would do. You guys are also forgetting that it's also harder to give a dangerous direction to a header from a 180/190 cm height which would be Messi's most common jumping height, than 2M/2,10M which is where Ronaldo makes contact on a header.
So, if we separate Jumping as the quality of winning headers, hitting it higher and aerial prowess, and Heading as the skill required to hit a ball to where you want to put it, then Ronaldo is obviously better at jumping, and Messi holds his own fairly well against Ronaldo in heading.
Off the ball movement?
What are you going to bring against that, Ronaldo scoring on the counter? Leo plays in a team that stretches the field to 30 meters of the pitch and with 2 or even 3 players marking him, and still finds openings at the space to both attack the goal or come to the middle/wings of the pitch and receive alone, isn't that off the ball movement?.
Nice, you showed us Messi is not really that special by bringing a video of Pelé to argue that he's not unique as a great header at 170cm.
Next time you say Ronaldo is great at free kicks I should link a video of Mihajlovic to prove he's not really that special
I actually agree with you, Messi is a good header of the ball for his height. Only brought it up because you were listing examples and he's Pele.
Saddest part is I actually like Ronaldo'd heading technique, how he marks the time and stays in the air, is a thing of beauty, but people will think I'm just underrating that skill because I think Messi is good at that too.
For example, if Ibra could head the ball like Ronaldo or Ramos, he'd be an even biggest threat in the area, or Yerry Mina, he's known for scoring a lot, he's good in the air and definitely a threat, but the way he attacks the ball... while effective, it's no as beautiful as Cristiano
For me the answer to this is a definite Yes. I think most people have an almost intuitive sense of what a 'Greatest of all Time' contending player should be like and the starting point is that he must be exceptional with the ball at his feet. Messi fulfils this criteria - he's an exceptional dribbler; an exceptional passer; an exceptional goalscorer (I'd include off the ball movement under goalscoring); his vision and creativity is exceptional and so on so forth. Ronaldo is an exceptional goalscorer but he isn't exceptional in those other facets. That's not to say he isn't good at them, it's just that he isn't exceptional at them. Also, the idea that other things like heading, of which Ronaldo is the best I've seen, are equivalent to the above is laughable. I can see a case for leadership attributes elevating Ronaldo somewhat however.
Another thing I've noticed is that those in this thread who use phrases like 'style of play' and 'aesthetically pleasing' in a kind of dismissive way do so almost as if a player has consciously chosen to play a particular way. This is putting the cart before the horse. A player's 'style of play' emanates from his natural talent and to a lesser extent his physical/athletic ability. The reason Ronaldo doesn't play like Messi does isn't because he has chosen not to, it's because he can't. He doesn't have the ability to do so.
Finally, I'd disagree that people are underrating Ronaldo as most put him in the top 10. That's hardly an insult now is it?
Gerd Muller was mentioned to demonstrate that the phrase "Lies, damned lies and statistics" applies heavily to this thread; in other words he was used to highlight the flaw of the continued use of statistics to bolster an argument. He wasn't being compared to Ronaldo as an overall player. Muller was also a phenomenal goalscorer but why isn't he mentioned alongside the other 'GOAT' players, given said scoring record and trophies won? Because outside of goalscoring he wasn't exceptional at anything.
No, I didn't, someone else did.....
You laugh but Nani 3 goals in the Euros as did Nani. They both scored important goals. This goal for Quaresma was as much Nani's assist as it was Ronaldo's. And also in the final Nani captained Portugal after Ronaldo went off and put in a good and responsible if not spectacular display. Also the goal from Quaresma in the knockouts against Croatia was as much Nani's assist as Ronaldo's, as he is the one who played the defense splitting pass.
The main reason why you are laughing at my comment is probably because one is called Ronaldo and the other Nani.
This weird myth being propelled on here that Portugal's Euro win had little to do with Ronaldo makes me laugh more than anyone's name. Nani was good but not as good as Ronaldo during the Euro's. Without Ronaldo they simply wouldn't have reached the final.
Suppose Nani was as good as Ronaldo during the Euros, why is that relevant? Argentine players were also as good as Messi during the W.C and Copa (competitions that they lost). No one brings that up.
The Messi vs Ronaldo on one side, how can someone not agree Ronaldo has a clear edge over Messi internationally. Refusing to acknowledge that makes no sense at all to me.
Messi’s Copa America in both 15 and 16 was much better performances than CR’s Euro 2016. But I guess that most people here didn’t watch a single minute of those two CA’s, they only go on forever about Messi’s miss in the penalty shootout...
In the WC the whole defense (and Romero) was good as a unit but no one really stood out. Masche had some brilliant last ditch tackles vs the Netherlands in the semis... Offensively it was all Messi, who as usual had to drop extremely deep to even get on the ball.
As for the two Copa’s, Messi was Argentinas best player in every single game he played by a mile.
You are genuinely saying it was all Messi when he didn't have a single goal from open play past the group stages?
As for Copa Ameria, Messi was the reason they lost in the end
It's all well and good looking merely at number of assists but it's clear to anyone watching the actual football that Messi's quality of passing, vision, playmaking and overall creativity/influence in the buildup is on an entirely different level. In fact, it is several levels above.
Look at this clip. Obviously not all of them should have been assists and every player misses chances, but Messi's weight of pass and vision and ability to carry an attack is phenomenal. That's why he's so different from every other forward. He's somehow managed to achieve mastery in not only goalscoring, but dribbling, vision, passing, playmaking etc as well. Playstation football.
And by the way you talk it could look that any striker in Argentina was in hot form past the group stage.
They scored two goals, Messi assists one vs Switzerland
And then he does the "build up" of the other vs Belgium, which is basically a deflection and Higuain getting lucky once in his life
Or his semifinals game, "he didn't score, so he did nothing".
Argentina has been nothing but Messi on attack for years now, if we were to talk seriously, we could argue if it's normal, or even "healthy" for their performance as a team that when Messi has the ball, the other 10 guys on the team freeze like he just stopped time and no one can do anything because Messi has the ball, personally I think that's Argentina biggest problem in the Messi era, once the 10 picks the ball, the rest are mere passengers of the game, maybe it's Messi the one that wants that, maybe their coaches don't know what else to do, or they really don't want to expose themselves giving command on the pitch to any other player, but as long as he runs the show alone, with help from 1 or 2 players on a good day, they probably won't win a international title unless they're really lucky.
For the Copa America comment, it's like with Baggio, everyone blamed him for failing a penalty when he wasn't the only one that missed it, and without him Italy wouldn't even go past the R16 vs Nigeria. Even Maradona missed a penalty in a WC for Argentina, but for him it wasn't the end of the world, because his rivals were even worse.
That's how you get Luis Suarez to score 59 goals in a season, you put him between Messi and Neymar.
Last Sunday vs Levante for example
Must be nice for the other Barcelona players to have 9 players not defending them
He is nowhere as good as Xavi was on that central midfield position.
It's not Portugal fans, it's Sporting fans, and the majority of them, unlike United fans of whom only a subset thinks that. They hold on to him in a very special way.
And it's a bit like arguing with a mother that their kid isn't beautiful. It's an emotional argument above all.
We really need to figure out a way to get Cal? and FCBarca together in a room with loads of weapons and cameras.
Again, Messi is the best player ever, Ronaldo is top ten, not bad for a goal scorer.
If anyone says Ronaldo is better than Messi that is when I don't listen to a person when it comes to opinions about football
For anyone to say Ronaldo is better is either a fan boy or doesn't watch Messi play there is no other explanation
I'm not saying that Portugal's win had nothing to do with Ronaldo. He did have a good tournament (not an astounding one), and played a massive part in getting his team to the final. Where I have a problem is when people say, well Ronaldo won the Euros, Messi never won an international tournament. That doesn't make sense to me. As far as I can see, both players got their teams to the finals (with help from their teammates). Then in the final, Ronaldo's team won the final, whereas Messi and his team lost the finals. So both achievements to me are similar, getting their teams to the final.
In what other way (apart from this winning the Euros argument) does Ronaldo have a clear edge over Messi internationally?
I'm guessing you don't listen to Rio Ferdinand then. Good choice.
Argue all you want. Ronaldo has achieved more when it matters and will be remembered as the bigger player
Dude how can you say apart from winning the euros? That is the biggest thing and look you can conjure up all sorts of arguments about who went to the final to which I will say Portugal has a much weaker team than Argentinas to which you'll say Argentina bottled it for them and so on.
When focussing on achievements you focus on facts. Fact is Ronaldo has won his continental international competition while Messi bottled it in the final.
People label Ronaldo fanbois as bad but it is so difficult for Messi fans to digest the fact that Ronaldo has achieved more internatonal
you can convince yourself all you want, but not even today's Portugese and Madrid fans think Ronaldo is better than Messi.
Messi is and will always be better player, and for vast majority of people he will always be part of the Pele - Maradona - Messi GOAT trinity. Ronaldo won't and nothing will change that
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