Messi v Ronaldo

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Rado_N, Jan 20, 2015.

?

Messi or Ronaldo

Poll closed Jun 16, 2018.
  1. Messi

    50.0%
  2. Ronaldo

    50.0%
  1. Apr 16, 2018

    MalcolmTucker New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Messages:
    344
    Thing is, you've always said Ronaldo was better than Messi yet it's only the last few years that Ronaldo has stepped up in the CL knockout stages. Before that he was seen as someone who didn't have a great impact in the big games and Messi was the one who had. Not only have you reinvented what is important about football, you've reframed what criterion you should judge these two on.
  2. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    You literally said the red part your self in the same post. Yet you arrive at the conclusion of the blue part? :houllier:

    You think Messi is more like than Kroos to make that header? :lol:
    I could already see that Ronaldo was better when everyone was clouded by how much Xaviesta was making Messi look good. I repeatedly pointed out that Messi couldn't do as much without them, and the last few years have proven me right beyond any doubt. :D
  3. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    What a polite way of putting it.
  4. Apr 16, 2018

    MalcolmTucker New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Messages:
    344
    It was a joke mate, it's a true testament to your lack of nuance that you were unable to see it.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  5. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    That’s more a testament to your joke making skill (or lack thereof). ;)
  6. Apr 16, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    585
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayer 04 Leverkusen
    Football is a complicated sport. A goal is the result of a complete chain of plays. A dribble in midfield that creates superiority and momentum can be more important than the assist or the actual goal itself. Just like a won tackle and a good transitional pass. For me, it is important to watch how much a player contributed to the goal and not where in the chain he became active. This is where it gets biased because at this point qualitative analyses, preferences, opinions etc. come into play. But making a great dribble or playing a great pass are more important for me than making a good run since the latter is the basics and the former is the special thing only very few players are capable of. Exemplarily, the brillant assist Mata gave to smalling with his "backheel volley". Smalling may end up on the scoring sheet but the goal belonged to Mata, for me. Both the run and the pass needed understanding and spatial awareness but the one thing also required a brillant technique.

    This is why so many people belittle Cristiano as a "poacher" or by saying he only scores tap-ins etc. Of course these are irrational exaggerations but the underlying reasoning of these banters is that Cristiano scores a lot of "easy" goals where he didn't contribute that much while Messi is usually the greatest force in his team regarding chance creation and scoring.
    The thing is, if you read lists of the greatest players like "Pele, Maradona, Messi, Cristiano, Cruyff" it basically reads like one of these questions in IQ tests where you have to find a word that doesn't fit to the others. Cristiano plays completely different to those players who were considered GOATs throughout their careers and is much more focused on goals than any of them. He is so good in it that he deserves to be mentioned in this elite circle but it only takes him so far. This is what I meant when talking about how I always rated playmakers more highly. I didn't mean that I would put someone like Riquelme over Cristiano but that the greats always have been playmakers since they develop the greatest impact on the game and have to be the best overall footballers.

    Now people say "but it is about the impact in big games, not how aesthetically pleasing his ways of unfolding it are" and that's a fair point. Ronaldo may not be a playmaker or great dribbler but according to them he creates just as much with his spatial awareness, positioning and runs. But I still don't think this is the case. When seeing him play it doesn't seem to me like he contributes that much to his goals and the goals of his team mates. He rarely scores jaw dropping goals or makes brillant plays like you see Messi do nowadays. He is extremely good at executing the basics. Making good runs and good decisions and of course his finishing is probably the best ever.

    But as a said before, when evaluating his goals I often feel like the decisive plays were made by his team mates. Modric, Kroos, Marcelo, Isco, Bale, ... You rarely get the feeling "Wow, only Cristiano could've pulled this off" like you get with Messi. With Cristiano, the consistency is the most impressive thing.

    This is also the reason why this "big stage" argument is a lazy one for me. Messi's performances in 2009, 2011 and 2015 were better than Ronaldo's in 2008, 2014, 2016 and 2017 in my opinion, although he didn't score that much. Ronaldo supperters in here say that they don't reduce the discussio to goal scoring but yet their most important argument - that he performed better in the KO stages of the CL - is based solely on the goal record of the two.
    The reason why Ronaldo is currently performing in the CL and Messi is not isn't that he was a better player in these campaigns but simply that his teams were better. The same vice versa with Messi's CLs while Ronaldo was incapable of achieving it with RM. Messi may be less dependent on his team mates but he still is. Just like Ronaldo wasn't a worse player than he is right now when he played in an underwhelming Real Madrid side that struggled to get to the semi finals before Mourinho.
  7. Apr 16, 2018

    La Pulga New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2018
    Messages:
    7
    Supports:
    Barcelona
    I'd like to mention something here...Ronaldo was not that decisive player for Real Madrid in the big ties before 2017 CL as I can read that people state that as if it is fact although I think we were watching the same matches.

    - 2010: Lost to Lyon at the round of 16
    - 2011: Lost to Barcelona and went missing while Messi decided the tie by scoring twice at the Bernabeu
    - 2012: Scored twice vs Bayern "one from a penalty", but MISSED in the penalty shootouts as he did in 2008 vs Chelsea as well and they lost
    - 2013: Scored a tap-in to lose 4-1 vs Dortmund and in the return leg, he disappeared. Madrid also went trophyless losing the league by December to a literally managerless Barcelona, lost the final of the Copa del Rey at home vs Atletico in which Ronaldo was sent off. But he won the Ballon D'or for scoring a hat-trick vs Sweden to send Portugal to the World Cup after extending the voting till November!!
    - 2014: In the semi-finals, Madrid won 1-0 through a Benzema goal in the 1st leg and then Ramos scored TWICE to make it 3-0 on aggregate to Madrid by half-time and Bayern were required to score 5 goals in 45 mins to qualify...Then, Ronaldo added 2 indecisive goals "clear as day". Then, we all know who scored the last minute equaliser vs Atletico to take the final to extra time, we know who scored the 2nd and 3rd goals and we also know who scored the penalty at the 120th minute to make it 4-1 and won the ballon d'or for being that decisive as a result :D
    - 2015: Scored a tap-in at Juventus stadium and a penalty at the Bernabeu, but Real Madrid lost in the Semi-finals.
    - 2016: In both games vs Man City at one of their worst periods in recent memory, he disappeared and they won 1-0 on aggregate via an OG after a Bale shot, in the final again Ramos scored vs Atletico and Ronaldo was nowhere to be found. But, he scored a penalty as did Vazquez, Ramos, Marcelo and Bale. Actually he was decisive vs Wolfsburg by scoring a hat-trick at the Bernabeu, but I do not think that is enough to be called one of the best big game players of all time.
    - Euro 2016: Portugal were 3rd and in any other Euro, they would have been out by the group stages end, however, as a reward they avoided Germany, Italy, Spain, England and France to only face one of them in the final. They won against Poland by pens, won in extra-time vs Croatia and Ronaldo was not that great in both matches. He was brilliant and decided the tie vs Wales by scoring twice and then he was actually injured in the final. If we compare that to Messi's role with Argentina, Messi reached the final 3 years in a row, lost 2 penalty shootouts vs Chile, he scored in 2015 and missed in 2016. At the World cup, they went to the final and lost in extra time, however, Ronaldo is hailed for helping Portugal reaching the final after finishing 3rd in the group, while Messi is a bottler because he helped Argentina in reaching 3 finals in a row.

    As i stated, Ronaldo was very decisive and played the best knockouts I've ever seen in terms of being decisive in CL 2017 and uptill now in CL 2018, but that was not the case throughout his career at all. Sorry for the very long post, btw.
  8. Apr 16, 2018

    Peyroteo Professional Ronaldo PR Guy

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,073
    Location:
    Porto, Portugal
    Supports:
    Sporting CP
    He was great and scored vs Lyon in 2010, he scored 2 and assisted 1 against Bayern in 2012, got his penalty saved but that happens, in 2013 you mentioned the cup final as a negative while he was very good and scored Madrid’s goal, he played a big part in Benzema’s goal in 2014 against Bayern, then got injured and he shouldn’t have even be playing football during that end of the season, he was also injured in 2016 and didn’t even play in the first leg against City.

    He doesn’t show up all the time because no player does and he’s also had his bad games in the big CL ties, he just does it less often than Messi.

    Nice username btw :lol:
  9. Apr 16, 2018

    Peyroteo Professional Ronaldo PR Guy

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,073
    Location:
    Porto, Portugal
    Supports:
    Sporting CP
    Nope. That’s fake again... do you understand how heatmaps work or do you just believe anything deluded Barcelona fans post on Twitter?

    I’m pretty sure it’s the exact same one as last time too. Why do you keep posting fake heatmaps ffs? :lol:
  10. Apr 16, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    5,669
    Location:
    Dutchland
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    Found this heat map from the euro's final:

    [​IMG]
  11. Apr 16, 2018

    Peyroteo Professional Ronaldo PR Guy

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,073
    Location:
    Porto, Portugal
    Supports:
    Sporting CP
    Walking straight to the stands to lift the trophy :drool:

    Messi's heatmap in the World Cup final :cool:

    [​IMG]
  12. Apr 16, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    5,669
    Location:
    Dutchland
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    :lol:
  13. Apr 16, 2018

    MVBDX New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2015
    Messages:
    193
    Supports:
    Real Madrid
    Do you know how heatmaps are generated? If those maps were to be true Cristiano must've covered 2km while Messi covering 200km since the reds are of the exact same density.
  14. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    The way you Messi fans go on about it, it's as if goalscoring is the easiest part of football. I wonder why no one ever did it as well as Cristiano if it was that easy.

    You say he rarely scores jaw dropping goals? How about that one against Juve in Turin? That probably ranks alongside the Van Basten volley and R Carlos freekick as "Best in its category". Unfortunately for Messi, "Best dribbled goal" will always be Maradona v England. ;)

    You're the one making the lazy arguments here with Messi's performances in 09/11/15, it's pretty clear that United/Real would not have got to the final in 08/14/16/17 without Ronaldo. But Barca could easily have got to the final in 09/11 without Messi. In fact, other than Ovebro, Iniesta was the key to the scandal of Stamford Bridge.

    Ronaldo played for the underwhelming Real Madrid side for one season, when he was injured quite often. :rolleyes:
  15. Apr 16, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    5,669
    Location:
    Dutchland
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    Don't be absurd.



    This one alone is miles better.

    Or perhaps this kid from a little club from Manchester:

  16. Apr 16, 2018

    Apocalypse Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    101
    Supports:
    Chelsea
    Ronaldo is flavour of the month right now purely because of that bicycle kick, I don't think anyone deep down genuinely thinks he's better than Messi, you only have to watch them to see just how superior a footballer Messi is.

    Still performing to a world class standard in a very average Barcelona squad. Ronaldo is much more reliant on the team behind him, hence how he was so far behind Messi up until 2015 when he became a fully fledged striker.
  17. Apr 16, 2018

    RedRonaldo Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,853
    There’s a study done not long ago comparing type of goals Ronaldo and Messi scores throughout their career. You will be surprised to learn that total no. of tap in goals Messi has scored is actually quite close to Ronaldo.

    IMO Ronaldo in 2017 CL run is the best ever individual performances/biggest impact I’ve ever saw in any competition, only 2nd to Maradona in 86 WC.

    The scary part is, Ronaldo in 2018 is likely going to match his 2017 run.
  18. Apr 16, 2018

    Reapersoul20 Can Anderson score? No.

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,279
    Location:
    Ireland
    1. That is absolute delusion. Huge amounts of people think Ronaldo is better.
    2. It wouldn't be discussed ad nauseam in every forum, message board, WhatsApp group and water-cooler in literally the entire fecking world if all you needed to do was "watch a match" to see who is the superior player. It's a much-debated topic because they are both great players.
    3. You gowl.
  19. Apr 16, 2018

    Apocalypse Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    101
    Supports:
    Chelsea
    What?!??!!!
  20. Apr 16, 2018

    Pocho Gayer than Marcosdeto (according to Marcos, who sh

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2006
    Messages:
    558
    Strange since he was the best player on the pitch and the MVP of the WC.
  21. Apr 16, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    5,669
    Location:
    Dutchland
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    Cruijff in 74 :drool:

    Seriously though, the top teams are so stacked nowadays the impact of any one player is much smaller. Just look at what happens to Real when Ramos misses a match. Maradona at Napoli, now that's a big impact.

    I'm not saying Ronaldo doesn't have a lot of impact, but most impact ever? I doubt it severely.
  22. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    The CL games has already been debated to death in this thread.

    But I have to reply to your biased view of the EURO.

    This wasn't any other Euro, the rules were changed well before the tournament and everyone played by the same rule. If no one else had the presence of mind to get themselves into the weaker half of the draw, that's just down to idiotic management. You can't blame Portugal for doing what they needed to qualify.

    IF you're going to blame him for missing a penalty against Bayern, how about some credit for scoring one against Poland? You know, unlikely you-know-who against Chile.
  23. Apr 16, 2018

    HorrorFan07 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    72
    It's wide open for the Ballon d'Or now Barcelona got knocked out.

    If Real Madrid win then Ronaldo will win it again as he seems to be the master in being rubbish for most of the season and suddenly appearing at the end in key moments. Then people forget how bad he's been even though he's proven that's unacceptable his performances earlier on in the season.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2018
  24. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    The Van Basten one is quite similar, but what game was it?

    The Rooney one came off his shin.
  25. Apr 16, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    5,669
    Location:
    Dutchland
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    Don't remember, he's scored countless of those goals in his ajax days. Ronaldo's goal was amazing, but it was nowhere near the best bicycle kick ever. Come on man :)
  26. Apr 16, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    5,669
    Location:
    Dutchland
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    Oh wow, look at this one by Trevor Sinclair:

  27. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    Ronaldo's one was hit at a higher point and in a much bigger game.
  28. Apr 16, 2018

    RedRonaldo Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,853
    At least I don’t recall watching anything better.

    I wasnt born when Cruyff was playing in 1974 though... and pity he didn’t win the tournament too.
  29. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    This doesn't even compare, it was a hit and hope.
  30. Apr 16, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    5,669
    Location:
    Dutchland
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    Okay fine, Ronaldo's goal was the best bicycle kick in the history of the game. Have it your way, I'll just entertain myself by looking up other bicycle kicks.

    "a hit and hope"

    The lengths you go to. Don't worry I'm not saying Sinclair is better than Ronaldo mate :)
  31. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    Are you seriously suggesting Sinclair's was better? :houllier:

    The Van Basten one is very similar.
  32. Apr 16, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    5,669
    Location:
    Dutchland
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    No I never gave a judgement on the Sinclair one, I just posted it, cause it looked awesome, but you scrambled to discredit it anyway, that's why I was laughing.

    The Van Basten one goas into the top corner from the inside of the post and the cross is from much further away, making it far more difficult. Imho, that makes that one far more spectacular.

    The Rooney one was at much higher speed from a bit further out and it goes into the far corner, sure he shins it a bit, but it looked far more spectacular imho.

    It's just your sheer unwillingness to admit anything at all that gets me. I enjoy it, and somewhat admire it, but it just baffles me sometimes :)
  33. Apr 16, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    5,669
    Location:
    Dutchland
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    Aye, fecking Germans ;)

    If you go by things you watched, I didn't watch that one either to be fair, I'm not THAT old.
  34. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    I didn't scramble to discredit it, it was obvious it was a hit and hope. Did I make any such comment re the Van Basten one?

    How far the cross was made doesn't really matter, but the pace the cross was coming in at.

    Anyway. Obviously you won't give Ronaldo any credit ever, you probably think Messi's handball goal was better than Maradona's.
  35. Apr 16, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    585
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayer 04 Leverkusen
    Sorry, but I won't bother arguing you since in my opinion, you have a really superficial view on football. Honestly, I have never read one single in-depth argument in one of your posts. Your claims pro Ronaldo only consist of (superficial) statistics, goal records, belittlements of Messi and so on. The best thing was when you said crossing and heading were more important skills than dribbling. That says it all, really, and also explains why you favour Cristiano. I have the impression you do not understand football and what makes decisive plays at all. It is like talking to a fan of a different sport who ovesimplifies everything and thinks the one who scores the most is the best player. Just a very limited horizon.

    By the way, I think this Real Madrid side would still be the best team in the world if Ronaldo wasn't playing for them. They easily have the best midfield and defense. Especially the center midfield is what wins you titles in the modern game and Madrid's is untouchable, currently. Cristiano is just the icing on the cake like Messi was for Pep's Barcelona.
  36. Apr 16, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    5,669
    Location:
    Dutchland
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    I think Ronaldo overtook Messi as the best player in the world. Actually stated that quite a few times over the last week or so :)
  37. Apr 16, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    585
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayer 04 Leverkusen
    I've seen a video analyses of the last season that replays most of the goals both scored. Counted how many goals they scored outside of the box, with more than two contacts, how many were initiated by themselves, how many were scored after beating one, two or three+ defenders and so on. Messi trumped Ronaldo in every category. This is not even a debate, honestly, the footage is there for anyone to see. Watch it and you realize that Messi's goals are much more difficult to score. Cristiano is all about consistency. A superb finisher but doesn't participate in the build up of chances by even comparable means.


    Can't agree. He scored brillantly but apart from that, I think his performances were quite dull. Even in the games against Bayern which are probably the most iconic of his last CL campaign I think he wasn't even that good. Yes, he scored, but he didn't participate apart from his goal. Again, it is his consistency. He scores and scores and scores but except for his goal opportunities, you barely notice him. Sorry, but I can't convince myself into believing that this was the most brillant individual run ever. I don't even think it was his best since he was much more active in your very own CL title 2008. Exemplarily, Messi's performance against Chelsea this year was more impressive for me since he turned those games around on his own. Ronaldo wasn't even the best Madrid player in the second leg against Munich, it was Marcelo, although Cristiano got all the attention. There is no denial that he has this stain of not participating outside of the box, especially in his later (and legacy defining) years.
  38. Apr 16, 2018

    Peyroteo Professional Ronaldo PR Guy

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,073
    Location:
    Porto, Portugal
    Supports:
    Sporting CP
    Where has Madrid's untouchable midfield been then? When was the last time you actually saw them have a great game? Hell, I can't remember one time this season where they actually controlled a game from start to finish the way they did at times last season.

    I can only imagine your comments if Modric had been playing as well as Ronaldo and Ronaldo as well as Modric. One gets criticized by the thousands, the other is immune to criticism. The midfield controls games but attacking players are the most important players in football which is why they cost more money. Unless all football clubs are stupid and they should start spending more money on midfielders than they do on attackers.

    No Ronaldo and Madrid are nowhere near the best team in the world. I'm not even sure they're the best team in the world with Ronaldo in the team seeing as they can't defend to save their lives. You saying they have the best defense in the world has to be a joke.

    It's not even close.. how can anyone think he had a better CL campaign in 2008 than 2017? It's insanity. He scored 10 fecking goals in the last 5 games. TEN. All of them decisive with no penalties against arguably the 3 best defenses in the world. You'll most likely never see anything like it ever again. He could have done nothing else and it would have been better than 2008 but on top of it he was the best player in the Napoli tie without even scoring. He got Javi Martinez sent off in the first Bayern game and he was dangerous throughout outside of the goals he did score.








    There is a denial. There is a very clear denial by anyone who has a pair of functional eyes on their face. Those weird people will also say anyone who thinks Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't participate outside of the box at all are either insane or blatant liars. There will be videos of highlights and of his performances on youtube for people to see so this bullshit criticism will absolutely not be a stain on his legacy at all no matter how many times you repeat it. One thing is arguing Ronaldo doesn't do as much as Messi outside of the box, another is arguing he does absolutely nothing. The latter is just ridiculous.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  39. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    :lol: I belittle Messi whilst calling him the 2nd greatest player ever, whilst the Messi brigade claims the likes of fat Ronaldo (@oneniltothearsenal , just for you), Rivaldo and Ronaldinho are better than Cristiano Ronaldo?! :lol:

    Is that why Real Madrid struggled some much in the first half of the season? Or why Ronaldo basically dragged them into the final the past 2 seasons in the CL?
  40. Apr 16, 2018

    Cal? CR7 fan

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    31,579
    Great to know. :D