Mesut Özil retires from "die Mannschaft"

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by OutlawGER, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. Jul 24, 2018

    jmaggio Banned

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    The German national team seems to have a prejudice against players who don’t play in the Bundesliga, and especially those that play in the BPL. Definitely bit them on the arse this time by leaving out Sané
  2. Jul 24, 2018

    do.ob Full Member

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    I think that's a slippery slope as far as causality goes. The same thing happens with foreign fans and pundits as well, for some it will have xenophobic or racist reasons, but for the majority it's because they interpret his body language as lethargic and get upset by it.
  3. Jul 24, 2018

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    I agree with everything you said about Ozil, Muller etc.

    I just don't get the part with Kroos. "Irrational love"?

    Kroos was never loved like Schweinsteiger, Podolski, Neuer, Klose, Muller, Neuer. He is respected as a world class player like Philipp Lahm was respected, but I would even say Lahm had a much higher cult following because of his Bavarian upbringing and his reliability. Kroos was constantly belittled while at Bayern, being called "Querpass-Toni" and being seen as a lesser player by the higher ups. His East-Germany roots didn't help him, the attention was more on players from Bavaria (Muller, Schweinsteiger, Lahm) or from the Dortmund academy (Hummels, Reus, Goetze). Kroos was on the Bayern side, but he was never seen as one of them. I still remember the calls for a Schweinsteiger-Gundogan midfield for Germany from many fans, the press, pundits etc. At that point, Kroos was already better than both, but no one cared about him.

    Kroos' status changed only in the last few years, since he was the only world champion from 2014 which career had an upward trajectory afterwards, winning 3 CLs with Real. Today Kroos is liked because of his performances and his international status, but the people never loved him as a person like they did with Muller, Podolski, Schweinsteiger etc

    Maybe a thing for a different thread...
  4. Jul 24, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

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    True, it is a mixture of both. I just wanted to point out that Özil is far more criticized although they are similar players, both regarding their abilities, work load and body language.

    I've been addressing the current situation. Yes, Kroos was described as being phlegmatic for a long time. However, it may be my filter bubble, but nowadays I have the impression that he is by far the most liked player of all German national players. And especially since he's actually a similar type to Özil (arguably the two best players in the team, technically brillant, great passer, doesn't score that many goals, sometimes a little bit shallow body language) it makes no sense that the one is appreciated beyond imagination while the other gets criticized for everything he does.

    By the way, back in the day when Dortmund and Bayern reached the CL final, Gündogan was absolutely breathtaking. I was also of the opinion that he had to start and it should be a competition between Schweinsteiger and Kroos. Unfortunately, Gündogan suffered from his injuries and never showed this quality again. He's still brillant but still only a shadow of his former self while Kroos stepped up big time since then.
  5. Jul 24, 2018

    Balu Full Member

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    That's simply not true at all. The tune changed from 2013 onwards when after Bayern's and Dortmund's success in the CL, the Bayern and Dortmund players were hyped and the rising superstar Özil started to decline with his move away from Real. It's always been the case that some footballers are made scapegoats after tournaments and if you look at the past decades in German football, you certainly won't find a connection between racism and over the top criticism. The most obvious example would be the Euro 2012 in recent years, where Schweinsteiger faced completely insane unwarranted criticism while Khedira was celebrated as the new leader, completely ignoring the realitity on the pitch. Soon after, the public discussion started that we don't need Schweinsteiger anymore and that Khedira and Gündogan can easily replace him. In 2011 and 2012 fans constantly jeered Schweinsteiger when he played for the nationalteam in German stadiums. Kroos right now is the darling of German football, because he wins the CL every year with Real. It's not surprising at all. Podolksi never really faced the criticism he deserved either no matter how awful he played.

    Özil's languid style of play would make him a target no matter how he's called or where he's from. And the truely sad part is that still in our society once criticism sets in, racism to some degree will join. It's truely awful that large parts of the mainstream media failed as badly in their reporting as the DFB did in their actions to protect Özil. That I agree with.
  6. Jul 24, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    Why is anything he has done near as bad/evil as directly being responsible for half a million deaths in the war of Iraq, or pretty much encouraging civil wars in Libya and Syria which resulted in both states (two of the most progressive states in the region) being totally destroyed. But yeah, some people voted them so it is all fine, cause they're democratic. Guess what, people voted Erdogan too.

    Or why a football player making a photo with Erdogan is such a big deal but Western leaders meeting with Saudi Arabia leaders and selling them weapons in value of billions is totally acceptable. Bear in mind that whatever Erdogan does, he is a puppy in comparison to Saudi Arabia leaders.

    And finally, why meeting Erdogan is such a big problem but Matthaus meeting Putin (a similar dictator to Erdogan, in fact what Erdogan is doing is exactly what Putin did to consolidate the system) is totally fine and there was no outrage there.
  7. Jul 24, 2018

    Stacks Full Member

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    Like when Conor Mcgregor met Putin? At the end of the day, Erdogan, like Trump, are world leaders and need the respect and treatment as such. Should celebrities shun Theresa May for the windrush scandal, selling weapons to Saudis to be used on kids in Yemen? The meeting with Erdogan was chance and one should always greet a world leader, IMO
  8. Jul 24, 2018

    JuveGER Full Member

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    This has been explained several times already. Erdogang is particularly high on the list of people who are not looked favourably upon by a lot of people in Germany for imprisoning German journalists, insulting the Chancellor and pretty much the whole "native" population, inciting the large Turkish minority in Germany. This has been going on for years. And, of course, Turkey is much more in focus in Germany due to their close proximity to the EU and the large number of people with Turkish roots in Germany.


    Western leaders meeting with Saudi Arabia leaders is business. You cannot ignore half the world, because their leaders are di*ks. It's a necessary evil. Many people disagree, though, with selling weapons to them. But it's obvious why there is no emotional response. Noone gives a damn about SA, while Turkey gets more attention for reasons stated above.


    What makes you think, what Matthäus did was deemed fine? He was widely cristicised in the media, too. Maybe not as much as Özil, but consdering he is less relevant and considered to be a bit of a joke, this is not entirely surprising.

    There is certainly an element of racism with people using the opportunity to have a go at the "Turk" Özil, but it is far from black and white as you make it out to be.
  9. Jul 24, 2018

    Schneckerl Full Member

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    They have a prejudice against players who play like crap when given the chance to prove themselves for the NT (Sané) and prefer to take others who show up even though they aren't big names (Brandt).
  10. Jul 24, 2018

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    Kroos is liked now because he is the only world cup winner for Germany who didn‘t decline. You see Boateng and Muller and you wonder what happened:( He is the one still winning Champions Leagues, whereas German players in German teams are failing on that front. He is not the by far most liked player, maybe only in your filter bubble where you like players only based on performances on the pitch. Marco Reus is much more liked than Kroos because everyone thinks he‘s cool, many people still like Muller because they think he‘s funny etc. Also Neuer is more popular for sure and there is club bias, many Germany fans are Bayern fans who like the Bayern players more, very few Real fans in Germany. Kroos is appreciated, but not really „loved“.

    Gundogan has been better than Kroos for a very short period of time (second half of 11/12 and in 12/13). I understand why some would want to have him in the team back then, it was just an example for the lack of love for Kroos during the Dortmund/Bayern hype years. Nobody cared about him, he was just kinda there for Germany and Bayern. Only after his success at Real, he was seen as a world class player.

    I agree with you about Ozil, it also comes from the fact Germans want to see a player play manly, go into tackles, get into fights with the opponents, get a bloody nose from an elbow, throw yourself into shots, run around like a madman. Kroos and Ozil do nothing of these things, but Kroos can‘t be criticized because he is playing in the best team in the world with 3 CL wins, whereas Ozil is sitting in 6th with Arsenal. If Kroos was playing at Leverkusen and just in 5th place in Bundesliga, no one would care about him outside of a small group of people.
  11. Jul 24, 2018

    Kapardin Full Member

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    Great stuff from his agent. Hoeness fully deserved what he got.
  12. Jul 24, 2018

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    So in a nutshell killing and destabilising other countries is OK as long as you are democratic.
  13. Jul 24, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

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    Where did I say it was okay? I am merely pointing out that there is still a difference between Western leaders and (soon to be) autocrats like Erdogan and Putin. In fact, I was always very critical of many Western leaders, especially the Bush administration, but also of people like Netanjahu or Tony Blair. I also hate the fact that we are selling that many weapons to states like Saudi Arabia or Turkey. However, it helps nobody to simply generalize everything just because it is currently en vogue to criticize Western governments.
  14. Jul 24, 2018

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    So you acknowledge they've both done terrible things (imo the likes of Bush, Blair, Obama, Cameron etc have done a lot worse things in terms of world safety than Erdogan) but only object to method of governance. Political systems have always been widely debated, some would even argue countries like the US aren't really fully democratic systems anyway. So i don't see why someone like Ozil should be criticised based on the premise of political ideology where there isn't a right or wrong.
  15. Jul 24, 2018

    HerrLeinad New Member

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    Then you totally fail to understand the whole discussion because the root of it is based on values. There has been a huge discussion in Germany for years what it means to be "german" and the only (satisfying) answer everyone can agree to is that "being germans" means to have certain values and those values definitely lead to some definition of right and wrong no matter what grey areas might exist. Pointing fingers at questionable (or wrong) actions of western countries doesn't change that, especially considering that you only even get to question those actions in a western (democratic) country. So yes a lot of bad stuff happens in democratic countries too but at least it's going in the right direction and there is a chance to learn from one's mistakes, good luck with that everywhere outside of democratic societies (and most of the bad examples/actions are considered a failure(!) of democracy and it's people, noone tries to sell them as great achievements).

    PS: Obama and so on did "worse" things in regards to "world safety" only in a very narrow definition and even then only because they have totally different responsibility/power. Let's be glad that someone like Erdogan doesn't have such power (opportunity) because then you'd see very different results. That's why we can even discuss such things on the internet and joke about a muppet like Trump, good luck doing that in Turkey, China and so on. That's something people forget too often while complaining about western democracies.
  16. Jul 24, 2018

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Completely lost the train of the discussion and gone on a tangent. My point was more on the principle why the poster felt bad actions by democracies are more acceptable.
  17. Jul 25, 2018

    TheeAma Banned

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    Western countries like to disagree and shame other countries that are not "democratic" and don't act or behave like them. Erdogan is no different than the Saudi leaders, the leaders of EU, UK, China,Japan etc etc etc. Chinese murdered millions but the west stays silent.

    Erdogan is an asshole and his power grab is nothing different from what the president of china just did. So i don't get why Ozil is getting criticized for it, also why here's the big big big deal okay. Gundogan also was there but he hasn't received half of the criticism Ozil gets.

    If you watch Ozil you think he's lazy but when you check his stats you are left baffled. He covers alot of ground creates the most chances has the most key passes. A poster said if ozil was still playing for Madrid no one would be questioning his ability and effectiveness.
  18. Jul 25, 2018

    Foxbatt Full Member

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    Many people seems not to understand the difference between people like Erdogan etc and Bush, Blair, Hollande' Obama etc. Erdogan, normally goes after his own people in his own country. The others murder people in other countries. If you look at the number of people killed under Erdogan you will find that he has killed a lot less than people killed under the watch of Obama, Blair, Bush etc.
    The man is a dictator no doubt but he has been a lot less damaging to the World then people like Bush, Blair, Obama etc. So Ozil taking a picture with him, who is also The President of a NATO country and (also his forefathers came from Turkey) should not have been an issue to crucify him like this. To be honest it shows the depth of German hypocrisy.
  19. Jul 25, 2018

    2cents Full Member

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    Turkish military is currently occupying parts of three other countries. But I get your point; still the issue here seems to be not so much Erdogan as a strongman authoritarian, but rather his particularly contentious relationship with Germany over the last few years.
  20. Jul 26, 2018

    TheeAma Banned

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    On a purely footballing level Ozil has been key for Germany from 2010-2018 Top assister, chances creator, goals scored from midfield he has been the difference maker in every major tournament for Germany. He was key in the 2014 world cup and help Germany to the final 4 in those tournaments.

    And the outright denial by the DFB is just sickening. Racism is rampant and they did nothing when Boateng was targeted and now ozil. it's baffling really.
  21. Jul 26, 2018

    HerrLeinad New Member

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    That's just not true. There was huge support from all sides for Boateng and that "only" because some idiot from the AFD said one stupid sentence. To say racism is "rampant" is just crazy talk. Yes, there is racism in Germany like in any country but please don't fall into some twisted narrative. I mean what is Özil doing in support of the people who are oppressed and physically harmed in turkey? He doesn't even dare to mention what is happening there or distance himself from Erdogan (apparently he even had a phone call with him after his resignation from Germany which is also used as propaganda tool in Turkey) while in Germany he has no problems going around and basically accussing officials of racism.
    Özil is hurting people like me (other germans with a migration history) more than any stupid AFD politicians ever could.
  22. Jul 26, 2018

    TheeAma Banned

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    Why haven't his other teammates spoken out? Ozil is being used as the scapegoat for a shambolic performance by Germany why hasn't anyone called Hoeness out on his comments? The DFB came out with a statement denying everything Ozil has stated in his resignation. Where normal people would expect them to look into this and work with Ozil they are doing the opposite.

    He met a foreign leader and took a picture, Turkey is a nato country, Germany is a nato country. If either one is attacked they are bound to help them out. He also hails from turkey and he was asked to take a picture and he did so. it's not his place to be speaking about oppression because we're trying to keep politics and football separate.

    Footballers meet world leaders all the time so why is this such a big issue why isn't Gundogan going through the same sort of scrutiny.

    I have close family ties to Germany and this isn't what people expect, while the rest of the world is looking at this situation and shaking their head about how the DFB has handled it, in Germany, there is denial and trying to cover up the issue. When he was being targetted by fans in the match against Saudi-Arabia where was the DFB in protecting one of your star players, where were his teammates in offering an arm of support?
  23. Jul 27, 2018

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    What rubbish, what has that got to do with anything? Following this ludicrous logic you can't criticize anyone or raise any issue unless you are doing everything to stop it on all fronts. You have taken it out of context.
  24. Jul 27, 2018

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    He's done it again with the nonsense he posted just now.
  25. Jul 27, 2018

    Donaldo Caf Vigilante

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    He hasn't retired.
  26. Aug 16, 2018

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt Scouse Lover

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  27. Aug 16, 2018

    MarkK Full Member

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    The Özil story is sad because it reflects a lot what is going wrong with integration of immigrants (and even their ancestors) and it unjustly puts a big political issue on the shoulders of a footballer who was at the wrong place at the wrong time and took an unfortunate and arguably wrong decision.

    First of all, Özil needs to be applauded because he was actually the first German world class football player with Turkish heritage who decided to play for Germany. He got a lot of stick for that by supporters of the Turkish national team whenever Germany played Turkey. At the time of his decision, it felt a bit like a breakthrough in political terms because it meant that players (and in fact people) with Turkish heritage had arrived in the centre of German society. Needless to say that nationalist and/or racist idiots in both countries did not like the decision but for many people it was a relief that such a decision was finally possible.

    I think where Özil is right is that he was overly criticised when playing badly, partly because there was an impression that he had a hard time feeling "at home" in the Germany shirt (hence the endless discussion about him not singing the national anthem), partly because Özil can look so damn uninterested on the pitch when playing badly (I'm sure Arsenal fans will agree) and partly because it simply fit the agenda of some "critics".

    Then the photo with Erdogan happened. I think, many people were so annoyed not only because of the picture but because it created the impression that Özil regretted his decision to play for Germany. At that point, maybe a lot earlier, the discussion was not only about Özil anymore but about the loyalty of a big part of the German population. Özil became a replacement character for a political discussion that had been looming for a long time. Integration and what it takes to be considered German is the issue that lies underneath.

    Finally, I just wished that this debate were not dominated by nationalists on both sides but that we could use this unfortunate discussion to finally come to terms with the fact that a huge chunk of the German population has roots in other cultures. It is time to accept that they are as German as anybody else if they decide that this is how they want to live (in this last part, Özil left a bit to be desired to be frank). It is certainly not wrong to ask for a common denominator for people who consider themselves German but we should finally stop seeing ethnic heritage or religious beliefs (that's probably why the AfD attacks on Boateng did not work at all - he is not a Muslim...) as this denominator.
  28. Aug 16, 2018

    HerrLeinad New Member

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    Where does the myth come from that Özil was ever harshly critized in Germany? If anything you could make the opposite case, especially due to the fact that he hasn't been playing in the Bundesliga since 2010 and germans players abroad always have an easier time because they are less in the focus of the german media (and fans).
    Considering Özil's talent compared to his overall performances he actually had quite an easy time. Look at the abuse a player like Schweinsteiger got for most of his career (including being called names like "Chefchen") or how even someone like Ballack was treated (despite the fact that he actually delivered), the only genuine worldclass player we had for a time. Or look at Götze and what he had (has) to deal with.
    All Özil ever had to deal with were complaints that he simply is too lazy/doesn't use his full potential and I think that is fair enough if you look at the young Özil around 2010 and compare him with today's Özil, he just never made the next step.
    Anything else is really just background noise that just gets politicised.
  29. Aug 17, 2018

    Raoul Admin Staff

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  30. Aug 17, 2018

    FootyGirl88

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    Hardly surprising..
  31. Aug 17, 2018

    Hansa Full Member

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    While it's easy to ridicule "white men says no racism occured", Ozil's actions speak for themselves. If Toni Kroos had posed with Erdogan, he would have been hounded by the press, and rightly so. I still can't get my head around what Ozil did. Here is a man, born in Germany, and he goes and aligns himself with someone who equates modern day Germany - the most liberal and refugee-welcoming country in Europe - by its Nazi history.
  32. Aug 17, 2018

    Kostur Full Member

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    'Whites' opinion on racism and whether it has occurred or not is irrelevant unless they confirm it occurred'.
  33. Aug 17, 2018

    Raoul Admin Staff

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    Is all of this about the Erdogan pic or something more ?
  34. Aug 17, 2018

    Hansa Full Member

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    No, it's all about the pic. The referral to Erdogan as "my president" was Gundogan, I believe. However, Ozil tried explaining away the photo as having "no political intentions". How ignorant can a German-born citizen be about the tension between the two countries? How ignorant can he be of basic human rights, freedom of press, etc?
  35. Aug 17, 2018

    Raoul Admin Staff

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    Yep.....questionable move at best by both of them.
  36. Aug 17, 2018

    Fener1907 Full Member

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    Can understand Arda Turan licking RTE's shoes. He's a Turkish çomar. German Turks associating themselves with that goon... always going to be tough.
  37. Aug 17, 2018

    redNATION Full Member

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    You mean the same "ignorance" shown by the German government in cosying up to oppressive regimes like Saudi Arabia and selling weapons to them? Why is he expected to show greater moral judgment than his own government? I dont see the same level of attacks against say, Xavi, who was clearly endorsing Qatar despite its obvious human rights violations. The German right wing has been emboldened and growing in recent years, it would be silly to say that there isnt a tinge of xenophobia behind the criticism.
  38. Aug 17, 2018

    Hansa Full Member

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    About Xavi (and PSG, City and whoever flirts with those kinds of regimes), I think it comes down to the "worthwhileness" of any potential protests. Take the (probably) two most criticized nations on this planet - USA and Israel - are they really the two worst nations by any measurable standard? Probably not, despite all the violent traits that they clearly exhibit. So why aren't Xavi's endorsement of Qatar getting the same response? Because we know Qatar don't really care, and can probably ride out any half-assed attempt at boycotting the regime. We can, however, exert some influence on USA, Israel - and Turkey - just like they're trying to influence us, and that's why Ozil's actions are criticized the way they are.

    As for the internal politics of Germany, I'm not going to argue against you. The extreme right wing is going from strength to strength in various central European countries. Worrying times indeed.
  39. Aug 18, 2018

    Blackwidow Full Member

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    The problem is that Özil's agent uses racism as a tool for propaganda to Özil's fanbase after he himself burned the bridges to the German national team. A letter in English - with no translation to German in the social media channels.
  40. Aug 18, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    It might well be that Ozil is just ignorant about the Turkey - Germany relationship at the time and thought it was cool to pose for a photo with Erdogan, but he could've just said, ah my bad I didn't realize this guy is nothing more than a bonafide dictator. And I condemn the fact he's saying Germany are still fascist and nazi's and whatever. Taking a pic with him might've been a bit dumb. Think that would've gone a long way to mending relations with the German press.

    I'm sure racists will use it as ammo to be racist, but that doesn't make germans condemming him for doing so racist by definition.

    Some Dutch footballers took a photo with, I think it was, Khadaffi. They were criticized for it as well. And rightly so.

    Bottom line, just stick to kicking a leather ball around and don't mess around with stuff you don't know shite about.