Discussion in 'Transfer Forum' started by devilish, Jun 15, 2018.
That's correct, I'm 6'3 and have stood next to Vidic and I was at least an inch taller.
You are say you think he is quite a leader but have yet to provide evidence of when he has exhibited it. We shouldnt be looking for someone we think or hope will become a leader but some that we know is one.
I have not included Rojo and Jones in my proposed plan as I agree they are not good enough. i am not sure about Bailly being injury prone and think its too early to reach that conclusion.
milenkovic will also not come cheap. That is more money on the CB when I think such investment should made elsewhere e.g. buy a proper RB.
The reality is we dont have the money to spend on two top talent CBs and still have enough for other positions. I would be shocked if we spent more than 70m total on 1 or 2 CBs.With Skrinair, that would be only him and would leave us hoping Skrinair will adapt to PL and can continue his development while we struggle to find a quality pairing and depth.
Whoscored says this guy tends to play as LCB with De Vrij playing RCB. If so, it would make sense for us to sign him as it seems none of our defenders are comfortable playing LCB with the exception of Rojo.
I fail to understand what sort of evidence I can give you. All I can say is he's pretty vocal on the pitch and there already rumours of him becoming the next captain. The guy laughed them off and quite rightly but it certainly show he does have leadership skills.
Skriniar captian if Icardi leaves
Spalletti also think he's captain material
E’ un calciatore forte, che vive di calcio, che può diventare il capitano di qualsiasi squadra per come è costruito nella testa e nei muscoli.”
He's a strong player who lives for football. Due to his physical and mental prowess he can become the captain of any squad
Milenkovic would be far cheaper then Skriniar and Koulibaly. He's essentially a CB but he's doing wonders as a RB too. In fact, its the position Fiorentina are playing him. Don't think of him as the typical tall and talent less CB whose forced as RB. He's tall but he's got some great technique and a good shot.
Here's a taste of what he can do
Now assuming we get rid of Jones and Rojo, then all we're left with is Smalling whose decent but far from WC, an inconsistent Lindelof, an injury prone Bailly and Tuanzebe. That's dangerously understaffed. In my opinion we should get a CB for medium-long term + a RB (considering Young/Valencia are at the end of their career).
Milenkovic would be perfect for the RB. He's quite technically gifted when going forward, he's versatile (CB/RB), he provide a different skillset to Dalot which of course is an asset and he adds inches to defence which would make us less dependent on Pogba's marking
As said, I doubt we'll be able to sign Skriniar or Koulibaly. Having said that, if there's an opportunity to sign him up then we should take it.
Been a few bit of speculation linking us to Andersen. Looks a very good option if true, not an overhyped player who for no reason what so ever is suddenly a £100 million player...
What I am looking for in a defensive leader is not necessarily captain material, but someone that can organize the defence i.e. spot errors by other defenders, marshal a backline to move as a unit, command enough respect from the other CBs like smalling, lindelof and bailly that they listen to his instruction and corrections. the latter requiring that they respect his abilities and experience.
Skrinair has not been put in such a position. Does he have it in him - maybe, but even if he did, it is not at the level that can have the immediate impact we need, as I dont see the likes of Smalling and Bailly bowing to his leadership easily. He is more likely to spend his first two seasons learning the 'united' way from Smallings and co.
On the other hand, Alderweireld has shown with Sanchez that he can and has done something similar to what we need. This is not a case of if Alderweireld is a better CB than Skrinair, but that he has experience playing the role we need to fill and will be useful on and off the pitch. He should have no problem commanding respect from our CBs as his reputation in the league has been well established.
While I am not too optimistic on the price, given how we seem to get shafted, I do like Milenkovic for his ability to play as RB if needed. he is also tall and seem competent in the air. I wouldnt mind a combo of Milenkovic and Alderweireld in the summer if the price is right. Add a good LB and we should vastly improved at the back.
Unfortunately nobody is going to sign our overpaid dead weights. Hopefully a dof can help stop our overpaying wages. Its simply ridiculous how much some of our players get paid given their lack of quality
He's a defender whose being poised to become Inter's next captain. If that's not defensive leadership then I don't really know
There are some decent arguments not to go for him, which include cost and inability to persuade him leaving inter. Lack of leaderships skills is not one of them
Regarding toby, well i don't mind signing him for the right fee. There again we are risking having to replace our 2 CBs + our DM in the next few years or so. That's a major surgery proper managers who care about the future of the club would be worried about.
I'd say lets get milenkovic. Fiorentina are already sweating at the thought of Juve circling around him so we might get him for a decent fee. If we are able to get rid of Rojo, jones and bailly then we can aim for a CB. Someone like andersen would be great as he would add competition without ruining lindelof chances
There is a difference in requirements to be a defensive leader and to be a captain. Another example would be Ramos - great captain but cant teach younger defenders, as he struggled to learn from Cannavaro and Carvalho himself. More so Skrinair is not even yet captain or even vice captain, so it is not worth gambling on him becoming a defensive leader in the future. We need someone who can assume the role as quickly as possible.
We can get Skrinair but it would be for his ability as a CB and not as a defensive leader
Why would we need to replace 2 CBs when the idea is to have Toby groom a set of young CBs (of which we already have 3 in Lindelof, Bailly and Tuanzebe, and, we can add Milenkovic or any other young CB). As Toby gets older, he simply drops in the pecking order.
Getting Milenkovic will be easier said than done. Would be surprised if he went to Juve, given the stack of defenders they seem to have.
Andersen (Sampdoria?) is right footed as is all of our other CBs, (with Lindelof being a bit two footed). If we are bringing in another young CBs, he should be left footed and capable of playing as a LCB in a back 3 and as makeshift LB e.g. Ramagnoli, Ake etc
I fail to understand this difference tbh. A leader is a leader irrespective were he plays. I can't understand why you bring in Ramos in the equation as I think he's a lousy captain. Captains lead by example and I can't understand how a defender who get so many yellow cards and red cards does that. I don't know the exact details about Ramos as I don't follow La Liga as much as I do with the EPL and La Serie A. However I assure you that captains are chosen for a wide amount of reasons and not all of them are good. Could it be the case that Ramos is chosen in that role because failure to do so would cause a shit fest in dressing room of epic proportions? Roma had a similar situation with Totti when he was heading towards the end of his career. It was evident that the guy was finished but managers and even directors were terrified to address the big fat elephant in the room because doing so would see him unleashing the ire of the fans and the dressing room against that very person. To this very day his 'I was pushed out' comments in his latest book had caused panic in Rome and we're talking about a then 40 year old player whose been pretty much a liability for at least a year or two. Anyway Skriniar is a leader at the back. His manager believes so and is considering making him Inter's next captain if Icardi leaves. That kind of settles that part for good.
Regarding your second argument I was referring to the club's near future. Toby and Matic are 30 while Smalling and DDG are 28. Having to replace them all at one go would cost a bomb of epic proportions. Also, kids needs consistent first team football to develop adequately. If we now bring Toby in then our first team CB duo would be Smalling-Toby much to the detriment of the younger players. I know that many think that experienced players would be able to translate their experience during training which is true. However that is not a replacement to consistent first team football. In fact, the only players of the class of 92 who actually became top class are those who played week in week out alongside top players not as their cover. Smalling and Jones had Rio and Vidic shadowing them but they didn't turned out half as great as them either.
So in my opinion we've got few choices
a- we stick to what we have. We can slightly tweak that by bringing in someone like Milenkovic who can give us options in the two roles we need.
b- we bring in Toby but Smalling will need to leave or at least be treated as a backup player. That would give the rest, the consistent first team football they need to develop under the Toby's guidance. That might be possible under a manager who wouldn't mind the occasionally brainfart mainly because he cares about the long term future of the club more then he cares about result (ie not Mou)
c- we think about now and who cares about the future. That means Smalling and Toby as CBs and Matic as DM.
d- we go for the best young player in the market ie someone who should be able to give us 10 years of top football. That should put our mind to rest in that particular role which would then allow us to focus elsewhere. That's the safest bet of all but it can still backfire spectacularly. Imagine if we end up with a 100m flop.
e- we distribute our limited funds by adding a promising CB + RB who can play as CB (ex Andersen and Milenkovic). That would keep our current players on their toes, it would create some healthy competition without closing the first team's door on anyone's face and would also distribute the money on more players hence reducing the risks.
Regarding Fiorentina and Samp well, they are both selling clubs. Some might argue Napoli are as well, however the latter have far deeper pockets. Fiorentina also hate Juventus with a passion and they just hate seeing their best players go to Juventus time and time again. Thus we might be able to carve a decent deal with them
To be a good captain is to inspire your team mates to give their all, while to be a defensive leader requires you understand the game, including how to defend as an individual and as a group, and can impart that knowledge onto others.
Ramos is a great team captain and leads by example, inspiring the level of performance required at Madrid. But his defending relies more on his athleticism than his understanding of the game, thus he cannot lead a defence in which the sum is greater than its parts, nor can he make other defenders better cos he cannot teach what he doesn't know.
Skrinair is not a leader at the back at Inter - that role belonged to Miranda last season and is being filled by de vrij this year. Comments about him potentially being future captain of Inter do not change this fact. The only valid counter is to present a scenario where he is the defensive leader, teaching and organizing others.
The replacement of Matic should be done asap, preferably this summer (itt was stupid to not bring in a younger player) while i believe DDG should still have at least 5yrs in him and wont worry until his reflexes start to drop (buffon, cech and even casillas are still doing well enough)
As for Toby, i expect us to get at least 2 season out of him on the pitch, but close to 5 off it. In which time, I hope he would have helped us develop a nice group of young talented CBs. if he comes, i expect him to be paired with Bailly or Lindelof, not smalling, preferring Bailly for his athleticism. Smalling is older and likely more set in his ways, and wouldnt really benefit from the playing, more so I dont see him bring a level above the others and think our defense would look same with any of them paired with Toby.
Our current defence needs overhauling and there are two main choices - buy proven and fully developed players or buy less proven young talents and groom. The former requires the kind of money city spent on their defence while the latter needs you have a system that can groom talented defenders. Guardiola is clueless on developing defenders, while Mourinho is more accomplished in it. Add that we cant afford to spend that kind of money on our defence, when we need better attacking talent (Mourinho is clueless in this area and his attacks rely heavily on individual talent), our best choice is to groom defenders. (this might be the wrong choice if we get a different manager)
Thus why I think we should get an experienced CB that can teach (somethings are better taught player to player and in real time on the pitch) and complements what the manager brings. With that, we can look to develop a group that would last longer than buying proven players. Given the 25m price tag, Toby seems the best value we can get ( PL proven, weaken spurs etc.)
If we can sell jones, rojo, and smalling, in that order, and bring in younger talents like milenkovic for 30m or less, i think we would be well setup at the back.
problem is they are already spreading rumors of rejecting a 60m euros offer from us.
Understanding the game makes you a good player, imparting that knowledge to others makes you captain material. There's no beating around the bush about that. For example DDG understands the game perfectly but he struggles to impart that knowledge to the players around him. He's WC but not captain's material. I don't think Ramos is a good captain. He gets too many cards which shows clear flaws in his game and poor attitude. I also think that sometimes players become so powerful that the manager have no choice but to accommodate them and give them what they want. The alternative would be losing the dressing room and their job soon afterwards. Skriniar is rated by his own manager to be captain's material. The guy had politely refused this big honour stating that he needs to earn it first. I think that's the perfect attitude for a captain.
Regarding Matic that's what happens when you spend good money on a nearly 30 year old. After 1-2 years you're back to square 1 with 25m-50m less in your pockets. That's why I prefer us signing younger players instead. However if things doesn't work out, the club must act fast and sell them before their prices plummet to the ridiculous. Don't take me wrong, I am not 100% against us signing Toby. However if we do, then we need to fully exploit his experience by playing him alongside young players week in week out. There's no point getting a CB whose greatest asset is experience and leadership only to put him alongside another 29 year both of whom will retire pretty much at the same time.
Regarding your last comment. Italian smaller clubs are renowned for their posturing and for spreading false rumours to try and attract attention towards their players. However, one thing is for certain ie they are cash strapped. They have to sell players on a near yearly basis and most would rather sell abroad then boosting competition. So unless Fiorentina or Samp are able to cause an auction for their players then we should be able to sign those two on decent fees. There's nothing worse for a Fiorentina supporter then seeing their own players end up strengthening Juventus
When you are a team captain, you lead the team not teach e.g. Viera wasnt teaching Henry how to score or Buffon teaching strikers. A team captain's role is primarily to set the temperament of the team i.e. fire them up when needed and calm the team down when suited.
Ramos temperament suits Madrid identity, which is what makes him a great captain for Madrid (and likely a poor choice for several other teams). In fact one can observe the changes in overall team temperament when captainship changes hands e.g. Viera vs Cesc Arsenal
A clear example of the difference is Chelsea Mourinho I, Carvalho was the defensive leader while Terry was the team captain. As great a defender and defensive leader as Carvalho was, dont remember him ever being appointed a captain at any stage in his career.
A good leader is also a good teacher. Returning on Ramos he might need to learn about defending himself. No half decent defender gets so many yellow and red cards.
Terry and Carvalho were both great defensive leaders and captain material. The difference is that the former happened to be better then the latter. It does happen at times. We had Rio and Vidic both captain material for example
A good leader is not required to be a teacher. I dont remember Keane teaching anyone
Carvalho was the better defender and its not even close imo.
Seriously? Keane was instrumental in helping Scholes transitioning from a striker to a midfielder. Also Id rather have Terry in defence then Carvalho
Scholes was an intelligent enough player on his own and never became anything like Keane (e.g. Scholes was a pick pocket while Keane relied on full blooded tackles to win the ball). Instead Keane was more known for bullying his team mates and knocking out those who dared to retort back (ask Heinze).
Mourinho, who coached both, appreciated the quality of Carvalho enough that he brought him from Porto to Chelsea, wanted him at Inter (almost fell out with Moratti over it) and took him to Madrid even though Carvalho was already 32yrs+.
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Didn't Sport Witness used to link to the specific source they are reporting on?
Anyway, I hope it's true so I choose to believe it regardless.
The source of the story is Gazetta Dello Sport.
Was reading on the sky Transfer talk summary that supposedly we have offered 53mil and have been told to dig deeper. Around about 50-60 sounds about reasonable. More so than the 100 mil that has been thrown around.
The source is The Sun so it probably has a zero percent chance of being true.
60m if he's as good as he's touted to be would be a bargain.
Just spunk the money. We'll only spend the same amount on two players who aren't as good anyway, if we want him go and get him.
Slovakian Lewis Dunk.
It's a no from me.
Watch Fletcher's recent appearance on MNF, he said Keane was constantly offering advice, putting an arm around the shoulder etc. The side most of us see, especially the MUTV call in that Fletcher even references, is his hyper critical nature, because he always thought the players around him had it within themselves to play better.
Skriniar is a real prospect, but anyone that thinks he will go straight into the PL and boss/lead the United defence is delusional. At 23 years old? Really.
He will need at least a year to adapt, as did Laporte, as did Otamendi, as did Lindelof. As Bailly still does.
There will be very few CBs available on the market next year - if any - that can manage this made-up dreamish role as saviour of our defence. Aldeweireld is a proven PL-defender and the one I would put forward as the main realistic target next summer, but even Aldeweireld will not be some kind of god-given solution to our problems.
Aldweireld plus one of De Ligt/Skriniar would be an awesome window CB-wise for us next summer, even if I dont think we are even close to being first in line for De Ligt (first choice for me) or even Skriniar.
Just messing mate.
Seems a bit cumbersome from the clips though. Still plenty of time to develop.
I think hes streets ahead of anything we currently have and can only get better. Only slight concern is how he’d adapt to the PL and how long it would take
If we are looking for Experienced CB's in January, then Alderweireld and Godin would be the ideal 2.
Godin they say has a 20million clause while Alderweireld could come for between 35/40 million, being that his contract is up in the summer.
Seems quite cheap. What did they reject in the summer?
Not sure how reliable but here goes...
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Cheap? VVD, the record signing for a defender only cost £5 more.
For lazy folk like me who would you compare Skriniar to interms of defensive style ?
Bailly. Decent in 1v1s, can be a bit rash, average in the air. He is pretty robust and, similarly to Bailly, you can tell he's one of those defenders who enjoys the battle of defending.
He is better on the ball than Bailly, though.
£70,000,000.5? Wow, if only Arsenal had stuck another £4 on for Suarez.
Not cheap, but maybe fair? VVD looks like the real deal, but he came from a «smaller team» with little experience from the highest level at the age of 26-27. Few caps, very few games in the Champions League and less than 70 games in the Premier League.
Means feck all, but Milan Skriniar plays for big european club and at the age of 23 he is already on a similar number of caps and number of games in Serie A as VVD had for Holland and it the PL at 26. Again, does not say anything about their quality, but could drive the price up.
The real question is are Inter willing to play ball
Nice upgrade in talent but seriously doubt it would address the lack of organization and leadership, and, that Inter will sell particularly if they progress in CL.
For me, a defensive leader is more important than another talented player who will have to do more arse covering cos the backline is not playing as a unit.
If we are getting a CB in January, it should be a defensive leader while we can wait till summer to get a better deal on a more talented and younger player.
Considering Leicester wanted upwards of £50m for Harry Maguire last summer, then yes it’s cheap.
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