Modric vs Schweinsteiger

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Edgar Allan Pillow, Dec 3, 2018.

?

At their respective peak, who was the better player?

This poll will close on Jan 23, 2019 at 10:47.
  1. Luka Modrić

    50.9%
  2. Bastian Schweinsteiger

    49.1%
  1. Dec 5, 2018

    OutlawGER Full Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,094
    Location:
    Cologne
    Supports:
    Bayern München, 1. FC Köln
    How old are you? Seems like you just started watching (german) football to me.

    Especially as a Neverkusen supporter you can't be serious?!


    sums it up perfectly. As i said before, as of german midfield talent of this Millenium, only Ballack was better than Schweini, Kroos would probably be third choice, but he doesn't come close to them. Compared to them, he is quite limited. A specialist.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  2. Dec 5, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    799
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayer 04 Leverkusen
    I've seen almost every match Kroos played for Leverkusen live. He always was a playmaker used on the left wing, nobody thought that this would be his future role. It was always clear that he'll switch to the center eventually. And especially with the tactical direction football took from then on, Kroos lacked the skill set for an attacking player.

    Which isn't even a shame, honestly, because he became arguably the second best player in the world in the most important position in modern football. He would never had had this impact if he had played further up front.

    I am 28 and started watching football around 2001. So yeah, old enough to have seen Ballack in a Leverkusen shirt. However, midfield roles have changed since then. The same arguments made for Ballack or Schweini being better than Kroos can also be made for these two being better than Xavi or Iniesta. You don't want box to box midfielders like Ballack anymore, you need those that keep a team ticking and Kroos is the best to do that, currently.
  3. Dec 5, 2018

    Synco Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Messages:
    2,467
    Video doesn't play over here, but I remember that season. I think the key parts here are "Leverkusen" and "left side of a 4-4-2", which is very different from Bayern's basic setup and general needs (considering the dominant approach & relative lack of space in the final third). Also important are Kroos's age and youth development focus on AM, both factors making the development into a full-on playmaking CM not feasible at that early point in his career, imo. And for all the quality and potential he displayed in the following Bayern seasons, I think his limitations as an AM and his natural gravitation towards an organising role still showed.

    But that's enough of Kroos for me - he naturally pops up in a thread about Modric & Schweinsteiger, but it's only a side discussion.
  4. Dec 5, 2018

    OutlawGER Full Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,094
    Location:
    Cologne
    Supports:
    Bayern München, 1. FC Köln
    Well, couldn't disagree more.

    That's beeing enough said already, though a player like Ballack (and maybe also Schweinsteiger), was able to carry a far worse german side to the top of international football (WC final 2002, WC semifinal 2006, EURO final 2008) while a player like Kroos is doing exactly WHAT?! these days...? Since both Lahm and Schweinsteiger are gone, Die Mannschaft is a dead team walking. And Kroos has almost ZERO impact. The only thing he did was scoring a freekick against Sweden (after causing their lead before, of course). The more i think about it, the more i cannot believe that you not only dare to compare Kroos to Ballack, but even you believe he is better than Ballack or Schweinsteiger too. This is just ridiculous. Nothing else. The only thing you can give him is that he is way more gifted technically than the both of them, yes. This doesn't make him a better player though. He's not even close tbh.
  5. Dec 5, 2018

    giorno Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    10,995
    Supports:
    Real Madrid
    Reading this thread i'm starting to think i know nothing about Pig Rider :lol:

    Match winner? Took games by the scruff of the neck? All action midfielder? Was he really those things? :confused:

    Because what i remember of him was a very limited winger early in his career who's only good quality for the position was his shot, later moved to CM where he morphed into WC DM/DLP hybrid who wasn't exceptional in either role, but great in both. As @Balu said, his best quality was providing balance to the team. He could seamlessly morph into whatever type of player his team needed from him. He was an excellent all rounder.

    And to answer this thread, Modric, i don't even see how this could be up for debate
  6. Dec 5, 2018

    hasanejaz88 Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,366
    Supports:
    Germany
    Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree @Synco @Zehner

    EDIT: Look at what I found :D Kroos as an AM in 2012/13. Brilliant shooting and passing on the final third, what more do you want? :drool:

    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  7. Dec 5, 2018

    Peyroteo Professional Ronaldo PR Guy

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,897
    Location:
    Porto, Portugal
    Supports:
    Sporting CP
    There’s something all those names have in common.

    You aren’t a fanboy, you just vastly overrate the impact of talent on the ball and have an incredibly close minded view of the sport and how it should be played.
  8. Dec 5, 2018

    Gio 6 times Redcafe Draft Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2001
    Messages:
    15,515
    Location:
    Bonnie Scotland
    By the same token and based on your Kroos/Schweinsteiger comparison, you'd be comfortable with Kroos being the most defensive minded midfielder in the team? There's a reason Real leaked from the base of midfield before Casemiro came along or when Modric was missing. This is the sort of thing that happened in big games:



    Same thing internationally. Obviously part of a wider range of problems, but that central midfield area stinks in defensive transition post Schweinsteiger.
  9. Dec 5, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    799
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayer 04 Leverkusen
    Ballack and to a lesser degree Schweinsteiger are possibly better players in bad teams but if you have a top team and need someone distributing the ball and enabling your attackers to shine, your choice has to be Kroos all day long. And that's typically what you want at a top club. As I said, I don't even think it's close. Kroos is on a different level of quality.

    I assume people who can't see that don't really understand the role of a modern midfielder. It is not about grabbing a game by the neck or whatever. That's not what guys like Xavi or Iniesta did either. It is about exercising dominance and outplaying the opponent's pressing, finding solutions in tight spaces, identifying opportunities for transitions of pace, and creating superiorities for your attackers. And in these areas, Ballack and Schweinsteiger won't stand a chance against Kroos.

    However, what speaks for Ballack is that the game was different during his peak. Then again he was never really among the top 3-5 midfielders of his generation and Kroos is sure as hell.
  10. Dec 5, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    799
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayer 04 Leverkusen
    May very well be true, I have a strong preference for a certain type of football, but if you take a closer look at the best teams in the last 10 years you'll recognize a pattern, especially in the midfield area.
  11. Dec 5, 2018

    George Owen LEAVE THE SFW THREAD ALONE!!1!

    Joined:
    May 7, 2010
    Messages:
    8,930
    Location:
    Gold Coast, Australia
    Vidal, by his last season in Leverkusen, was already the most complete and influential player in the Bundesliga.
  12. Dec 5, 2018

    shamans Hoser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,842
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    Schweinsteiger was way more versatile. Kroos is the type of guy that would work well in certain systems but a player like Schweinsteiger could just wreck havoc like a mad dog anywhere.
  13. Dec 5, 2018

    Dwazza Coke is it!

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    69,771
    Location:
    Izzo
    Except Manchester United, of course.
  14. Dec 5, 2018

    shamans Hoser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,842
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    You answered your own question :wenger:
  15. Dec 5, 2018

    shamans Hoser

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,842
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    He was an old pensioner when he came here. Only good for pointing fingers and skipping training to be with his GF. I disliked his whole time with us and how our fans loved him just for his name because hw as useless.

    On that note I saw him play live vs DC United for Chicago Fire few months ago and I kid you not it was like a fan got a chance to play with the pros.

    I know we love to shit on Rooney (and I'm a Rooney fanboy) but Schweinsteiger has let himself go 10 times worse than Wazza. He missed almost every header, run and tackle and was playing some weird left midfield position.

    I have a picture of him and Rooney chatting and laughing during half time though! :)
  16. Dec 5, 2018

    PedroMendez Acolyte

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,657
    Location:
    the other Santa Teresa
    and also not for Bayern most of the time.
  17. Dec 5, 2018

    Libano Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2014
    Messages:
    552
    Location:
    Where the grass is greener
    Leader vs technician.

    On the ball, Modric is untouchable. He just cannot be pressed. Schweini had that rare alpha quality and was the epitomy of a box to box midfielder. They would make a hell of a pairing.
  18. Dec 5, 2018

    Peyroteo Professional Ronaldo PR Guy

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,897
    Location:
    Porto, Portugal
    Supports:
    Sporting CP
    No, I really don't.

    You're looking at Barcelona 2009-11 and Real 2016-18 and concluding that the main reason for their success is the structure of their midfield when the main reason they've won as much as they did is they have arguably the two best players ever upfront. Both of these teams had a protector in Busquets and Casemiro, a controller in Xavi and Kroos and an impossible to dispossess midfielder in Iniesta and Modric. But who are the most successful teams in the past 5 years?

    Let's look at the CL finalists, Liverpool in 2018, Madrid in 2014 and Barcelona in 2015 are clear cases of teams being massively elevated by their forwards, none of these teams played possession football really and they regularly didn't have control of the midfield. Atletico was also mostly a counterattack team, great at pressing the opposition and set pieces. Played mostly in a 4-4-2.

    Juventus have a typical italian midfield, with a regista (Pirlo/Pjanic) and 2 box to box players either side of them (Khedira, Bentancur, Matuidi, Vidal). The fact they haven't won doesn't mean their midfield in the past 5 years wasn't good enough. If they had Messi or Ronaldo up top while Barcelona and Madrid had Tevez and Higuain they'd have been every bit as successful too.

    I look at the most successful teams in the past few years and I see completely different ways to approach the game and completely different setups in midfield.

    Comments likes this show a view of football that is not only very closeminded but goes against what's been happening.

    It's such a wrong assumption to make, some teams would prefer a player like Kroos and some would prefer a player like Ballack, obviously. Saying that you don't want a player like Ballack in modern football is just a complete lack of awareness as to what plenty of top teams are looking for. You seem to base modern football on what Guardiola would want, rather than what most top teams want.

    The irony in all of this is that for over a year now Madrid have been crying out for a proper box to box midfielder to have in Kroos' place since his form went to shit.
  19. Dec 5, 2018

    Jib Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    985
    Modric by far.
    Schweinsteiger is only rated here and in Germany. Overrated. Not even top 5 CM in the last 10 or 15 years !
  20. Dec 5, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    799
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayer 04 Leverkusen
    That's one way to put it. The other is:

    - in the last ten years, 8/10 CLs, 2/3 WCs and 2/3 ECs went to teams fielding a midfield of "Guardiola-type" players, not box to box midfielders
    - Spanish football was completely dominated by this idea ever since Aragones and Guardiola reintroduced it
    - German football wasdominated by it through coachs like van Gaal, Tuchel, Favre, Guardiola and Löw
    - In Italy, Sarri completely overachieved with Napoli following a very fresh interpretation of this style, also without any box to box midfielders
    - PSG hasn't had much competition but still follows the same school of thought
    - England joined the party last year with a Guardiola side that sets record after record and conquered the epitome of the box to box style with small, agile players that possess a low center of gravity and superb skills on the ball

    And yes, many of these teams simply had better players (Barca with Messi, Real with Ronaldo, Bayern with Ribery and Robben) but there is a reason why those teams played like they did - it gave them the best chances of winning and got the most out of their players.

    Real Madrid itself is the best example. They played both styles and it is obvious which was more successful.
  21. Dec 5, 2018

    Dirty Schwein Has a 'Best of Britney Spears' album

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    9,964
    Location:
    The Infirmary
    In the current United team.
  22. Dec 5, 2018

    Peyroteo Professional Ronaldo PR Guy

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,897
    Location:
    Porto, Portugal
    Supports:
    Sporting CP
    It was more successful because 1) They got luck going their way 2) They had better players than when they played differently. They were much better in the semifinals vs Bayern in 2012 than in 2018, but the result was the opposite for example. Also, Zidane's Madrid played nothing like a Guardiola team at all, despite having Kroos and Modric in midfield. It's funny that you're trying to make this point using Real Madrid when the very reason they were as good as they were and that they won 3 Champions League in a row is their very ability to adapt to different ways of playing.

    Sarri didn't overachieve with Napoli, they're better without him this year. They have a superb squad. 8/10 CL winners fielded a midfield with Guardiola type players... what? Besides being incredibly convenient to look at the winners without looking at the finalists (Juve 2015 and 2017, Atletico 2014 and 2016, Liverpool 2018, Bayern 2010, United 2009 and 2011, Dortmund 2013), it's simply not true. And the very reason the number in CL, Euros and WC winners is as high as that is because Xavi and Iniesta massively affect them since they won 1 World Cup, 2 Euros and 3 Champions League and they were the perfect players to implement that style.

    What happened to Pep's City last year? What happened with Bayern?

    Conte, Allegri, Simeone, Klopp, Zidane... none of them have their midfields funcioning similarly to what Guardiola tends to do and they're the most successful managers of the past few years. There are multiples ways to succeed in the sport and regardless of style, the team with the better players will win more often than not.
  23. Dec 5, 2018

    SilentStrike New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    In Holland we rate him as one of the absolute best in recent years, and rightly so. But even if we didn't, since when do we judge player's capabilities on what the masses think? Most football fans barely watch games and their opinions are heavily influened by marketing and 'what the rest think'. Popular vote has always favored Spain ever since they heavily Marketed the Clasico.

    I watched a lot of games, in a variaty of leagues and Schweinsteiger is definitely a top 5 midfielder in the past 10-15 years.

    The only one clearly ahead of him is Xavi, who join the all-time Elite probably behind only Matthäus and Rijkaard.

    The rest, Schweinsteiger, Modric, Kroos, Pirlo all have relatively equal claim for the remaining spots. And from this bunch, I would pick Schweinsteiger over the rest simply because this guy seemed like a midfield by himself. Could mould himself into any role, excelled at every aspect of the game and was everywhere on the pitch. And on top of that, a leader.
  24. Dec 6, 2018

    giorno Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    10,995
    Supports:
    Real Madrid
    You instantly managed to prove this point...

    ...By saying this

    Great job :lol:
  25. Dec 6, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    799
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayer 04 Leverkusen
    You can still pretend that Madrid played nothing like that but that won't change that their playing style and squad management was heavily influenced by Barca and Pep. Zidane himself attended Guardiola's training sessions, do you think it is a coincidence that his midfield constellation looked that similar? It is also a ridiculous thing to say that the lack of domination that Real occasionally "struggled" with was due to the midfield. Kroos and Modric were consitently averaging passing success rates higher than 90%. It was their last third decision making and risk taking that lead to possession losses, not their midfield. And this was primarily because the attackers were instructed to be much more direct and less focused on retaining possession. The midfield itself worked similarly.

    And yes, Real Madrid was lucky and so were other teams who reached the final. In the same way some teams went out unluckily because of a bad day, bad refereeing or whatever. These things weigh out. Inter was very lucky to beat Barca in 2010, Chelsea was very lucky to beat Bayern in 2012. Last year, Bayern with a clearly possession-oriented approach was probably the best team in the tournament. Luck will always be a factor in knockout tournaments. Thing is, the leagues speak an even clearer language.

    In the end, it speaks volumes that 8/10 CLs in the last decade went to teams who fielded midfields Guardiola and his fellow believers would appreciate. Especially considering that there weren't many teams around following this approach to the game compared to rather traditional sides from a tactical point of view. If you have the best squad, you want to play "possession-oriented" football because it gives you the best chances of winning the whole thing. I put that in quotation marks because I don't think the term fits, by the way. Sarri exemplarily can't really be described as a possession-oriented coach but he still uses many concepts of the Dutch/Cruyff school.
  26. Dec 6, 2018

    Jib Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    985
    Iniesta, Pirlo, Vieira, Modric and Xavi are the top 5 CM in the last 15 years for me.

    Scholes is obviously better than him too. Same for Seedorf even if the dutch hate him.


    And I rate Deco, Yaya Touré, Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack ( best german CM in the last 15 years ), Fabregas, Vidal ( underrated ), Kroos higher than him.

    In fact, for me Schweinstager isn't even in my top 15.

    He's overrated. When I think about the team that won the CL in 2013, the best players were Ribéry, Robben and Neuer. After them it was Lahm, Muller, Alaba, Gomez and Boateng... Schweinstager was the weak link with Dante :lol:

    But he was one of their best player when Bayern was shite in the 2000' :cool:
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  27. Dec 6, 2018

    JDoe Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2018
    Messages:
    174
    Supports:
    Bayern
    Schweinsteiger at his peak was a bit better IMO. He was able to run a midfield on his own.

    Robben wasn't even a starter in 2013, so was Gomez...
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  28. Dec 6, 2018

    Zehner Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    799
    Location:
    Germany
    Supports:
    Bayer 04 Leverkusen
    Robben was injured for large parts of the season but baxck to his very best in the last stages of the CL and of course the final. He was there when Ribery's form started to drop a little and Kroos got himself injured. Although he only played a comparably small share of games, he was very important and had probably the highest peak of all of them during that season. Since Kroos missed the most important games, I'd say that Robben, Ribery, Schweinsteiger and Boateng have an equally fair claim for being the best Bayern player in 2013 if you consider both top form and consistency.
  29. Dec 6, 2018

    Balu Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    15,023
    Location:
    Munich
    Supports:
    Bayern Munich
    I'm surprised you left out Gustavo and Tymoshchuk, who were obviously more important midfielders than Schweinsteiger in the treble season.