Moise Kean

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Samid, Mar 30, 2019.

  1. Apr 3, 2019

    Sayros Full Member

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    I'm talking about the major leagues of football. Obviously there's plenty of countries where there is racism, but the subject is about what's happened in Serie A, didn't think I'd have to explain something that obvious, you're getting offended over your own misunderstanding. It's only in Serie A that you routinely have these issues, you don't see that in England, Germany, France, and Spain is doing better but still prone to the issue now and again, but nowhere to the level that you find in Serie A, especially with Presidents of clubs defending it.
  2. Apr 3, 2019

    Kapardin Full Member

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    Bonucci is a colossal plank but I don't think he is personally racist. He probably doesn't understand racism as a major issue due to the climate in Italy and simply thought Kean shouldn't have provoked the crowd (of course, he was dead wrong in thinking so).

    Intelligent player, but leaves his brains on the pitch apparently.
  3. Apr 3, 2019

    GioF New Member

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    Well it’s not obvious seeing as though only last week there was lots of reports involving the England team and then also Chelsea playing D.Kyiev.

    Also wasn’t it only this year when the Chelsea fans were caught on camera hurling racist abuse at Stamford Bridge?

    But yeah your right it’s just my misunderstanding and clearly me whose misinterpreted your post....

    The problem with your original post is you made some really nice points and views but it meant feck all when you started it with that idiotic and false statement. It’s fine you judge and believe what you want but it’s hypocrisy at is finest.
  4. Apr 3, 2019

    GioF New Member

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    What are you taking about? Who’s took a defensive stance?

    To try and undermine my intellect by questioning how I could possibly understand the quote “all these stories are in Italy” as anything other than racist and damn right false is laughable.
    It’s bullshit.
    You can’t make points about how things need changing etc (clearly they do by the way!!) with the start of the conversation isolating one nation of the foul behaviour when it’s happening all over the world....two massive cases just happened in the last ten days none of which involved Italy but yet the poster felt compelled to begin their post with that shite.

    It is what it is at the end of the day. I’m sure we agree on how changes need to be implanted etc but I find it strange how you can single out one nation for it.
  5. Apr 3, 2019

    VP89 Pogba's biggest fan

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    Bonucci is an epic cnut. 50% my arse.
  6. Apr 3, 2019

    MackRobinson Full Member

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    Italians are most racist (or racially insensitive) culture I've ever come across and I've traveled to every major continent. The only thing that somewhat insulated me from receiving the abuse and treatment of other black people (namely Africans) is my passport and accent. Otherwise, on first look I was treated with suspicion nearly everywhere I went. Absolutely lovely country but pretty much the only country where I felt uncomfortable in a negative way. I will say the young ones aren't nearly as bad as the older Italians.
  7. Apr 3, 2019

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

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    His dad sounds like a right nutter. :lol:
  8. Apr 3, 2019

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    Are we really needing to have this discussion? One example would be the fact we have this thing called a criminal justice system and racism is literally against the law. There is literally a legal system in place to shame and educate people into not racially abusing each other. I reckon that probably has some effect.

    I don't understand what the argument is here. If you provoke a twat they are going to act like a twat even more. If you provoke them enough usually it ends with someone getting hurt. Suggesting someone is in the wrong for saying this is a bad idea is being precious to the point of being just plain bonkers to be honest.
  9. Apr 3, 2019

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    Can you think of any person who responds positively to being taunted or provoked? Because if not then I don't understand the argument. I wouldn't provoke a racist unless I wanted them to act like a racist more.
  10. Apr 3, 2019

    GioF New Member

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    Wow the level of hostility here is unreal. Now being told we are the “most racist” culture from Phileas Fogg over here who’s been all over the world. What bollocks.
    There’s horrible racists and all kinds of evil people who victimise and treat people poorly due to their ethnicity, religion etc all over the world. But to make that statement is excessive and insulting. Not wasting my time on this bullshit any longer.
  11. Apr 3, 2019

    Leroy The Red Full Member

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    Hmmm, Allegri definitely wasn’t right considering Kean’s goal celebration was actually quite luke warm. There was no cupping of ear, finger to mouth, he literally just stands there with his hands out. It’s actually the tamest form of a provocative goal celebration you’ll ever see.
    Considering Eric Cantona fly kicked a bloke who racially abused him I think Kean is at the complete opposite end of the scale.

    Personally speaking, I’ve been racially abused multiple times at work and I’ve only ever “reacted” once.
    I’m gonna take a wild guess and say Moises Kean has probably experienced a lot of it too and most of the time ignores it. But sometimes you want to give back and personally speaking, on that day I gave a little back and if I had my manager and a colleague coming out and telling me I responded badly I’d have told them to get fecked in no uncertain terms.

    That’s of course taking into account my reaction like Kean’s was tame. Had I fly kicked my abuser in the face then perhaps yes they could have had a word with me.
  12. Apr 3, 2019

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    A few on here in my time for a start, as I'm sure some of the older posters on here could testify to...along with everyone else who's called them out on it.

    I would say a good few others given I encounter quite a few through work. We also have an Iranian guy at our work who has been on the receiving end a few times.

    Some of you are so determined to be outraged you don't even stop to use your common sense, or just presume you are better than anyone who disagrees.

    I'm interested to know how you think racism can be tackled if you don't think education will work? If that's the case why isn't everywhere exactly the same racist as it was 100 years ago?
  13. Apr 3, 2019

    mu4c_20le Full Member

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    Of course he understands, he grew up there ffs. This is just classic victim blaming. Maybe hes not a classic racist in the sense that he sees certain people as lower than others, but he seems to accept that racism is part of the culture and just wants to play it down. It's cowardly.
  14. Apr 3, 2019

    Charles Miller New Member

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    Everybody knows the rules here. If someone is openly racist in the Redcafe he/she will probably get a ban. But is not hard to spot them. At any case like this you just need to see who are those trying to drag the debate alway from racism. its never racism the main problem, its always something else, the reaction of the victim, the context, etc.
  15. Apr 3, 2019

    giorno Full Member

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    Until a month ago i had this impression of him as an ultra-talented striker who had everything but the natural killer instinct of a top top goalscorer. Essentially a similar player to Benzema, but with hunger and energy(and that is a huge compliment). A world class player who however sadly could not solve our(italy's) goalscoring problem

    Now though? I was wrong. I'm in. Kid can score. He's the Striker That Was Promised, and His Shall Be The Next 3 World Cups

    ....i'd even settle for one, pretty please
  16. Apr 3, 2019

    Irrational. Full Member

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    Lost a lot of respect for Bonucci after this. He can feck off.
  17. Apr 3, 2019

    MJJ Full Member

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    Every single teammate of the person being abused should walk off, how can you work with somebody, play with them and not stand up for them.
  18. Apr 3, 2019

    Samid follows Pogue around, fixing his images

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    Bonucci statement

    Dopo 24 ore desidero chiarire il mio pensiero. Ieri sera ho parlato alla fine della partita e mi sono espresso in modo evidentemente troppo sbrigativo, che è stato male interpretato su un argomento per il quale non basterebbero ore e per il quale si lotta da anni. Condanno ogni forma di razzismo e discriminazione. Certi atteggiamenti sono sempre ingiustificabili e su questo non ci possono essere fraintendimenti. // After 24 hours I want to clarify my feelings. Yesterday I was interviewed right at the end of the game, and my words have been clearly misunderstood, probably because I was too hasty in the way I expressed my thoughts. Hours and years wouldn't be enough to talk about this topic. I firmly condemn all forms of racism and discrimination. The abuses are not acceptable at all and this must not be misunderstood.
  19. Apr 3, 2019

    villain Hates Beyoncé

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    I just asked a question because you seemed to imply that the onus is on black people (or anyone who's being racially abused) to take the high road, after being racially abused. Whereas I'm simply saying anyone's reaction to racism is individual and shouldn't be held against them, even if that reaction is violent.

    Nobody is outraged, I don’t think anyone thinks they're better than anyone & at no point did I say education doesn't work - unless you can quote me?
  20. Apr 3, 2019

    MackRobinson Full Member

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    You're making the faulty assumption that not provoking them will make them respond positively. If you're aren't, then I don't understand the argument. They were going to racially abuse Kean regardless of what he did (the evidence is that they did so before), so him provoking them in retaliation is irrelevant.

    In a perfect world, they get clubbed upside the head.
  21. Apr 3, 2019

    MackRobinson Full Member

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    I'm not bothered by your fake outrage. I'm telling you my personal experiences with Italians and you're somehow taking offense to it. That's the most absurd reaction I've seen in a while. Like I said, the most racist culture that I HAVE EXPERIENCED. I already prefaced it but saying it is more so the older generation, but of course you're more worried about feigning outrage. Ciao.
  22. Apr 3, 2019

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    I don't think the "onus" is on them. You are putting words in my mouth. I don't think however it is wrong to put an arm round someone and say to them "next time, try to rise above it", or to point out that provocation will not produce a positive outcome. You are not pitting yourself against them or blaming them or forcing them to take any high road alone, because there is absolutely nothing to stop you being on the same side as them.

    I'm not going to start judging someone who reacts to being racially abused as it's not a position I can understand, but I don't find comments like "it's tone death to suggest how black people should respond to being racially abused" particularly helpful. Or suggestions that doing so is "policing" black people, which I think you may have said yourself (I may have missinterpreted as I can't find the post).

    What this is doing is making it into a black people problem, by effectively forbidding anyone else to suggest a course of action that might help, or to get involved, or have any opinion at all. This is why you nearly always only see black players, pundits etc. speaking out against racism, because no one else wants to stick their neck out for fear of being ridiculed. It is not a black people problem, it is a society problem, and recognising that will make it go away a lot quicker.

    Look at the difference now for example when it comes to gay marriage, homosexuality etc. Compared to only a few decades ago. This was achieved by society changing it's attitude and younger people being educated differently. It wasn't achieved by two men kissing in front of a bunch of homophobes to try and wind them up, even though from the purely moral point of view this would actually be quite funny.

    I'm not sure what your pont was. You seemd to be arsily repsonding to my post suggesting I prove I have personally educated or shamed people for racism. This seemed somewhat unecessary and if you weren't suggesting it doesn't work I'm not sure what you were implying unless it was meant to be a presumptious personal dig.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
  23. Apr 3, 2019

    giorno Full Member

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    Heh. I don't have a high opinion of us as a people. I could elaborate, but the gist of it is, i think this is what we are, what we've always been historically, and it is something ingrained in our culture.

    Also, somebody dig up Churchill's quote about italians. It's 100% spot on

    Allegri's tone deaf comment on Kean's celebration? He's thinking about Kean the juventus player and ignoring Kean the young man
  24. Apr 3, 2019

    Sylar Full Member

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    Quite funny.

  25. Apr 3, 2019

    giorno Full Member

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    Not hard to believe
    Also perfectly obvious to me(in the sense that to my experience this is how most "cultural-racist" italians perceive it. A black man from a western country with a western name is different and inherently better than one from backwards savage Africa. Well, except to the xenophobes, and Salvini's doing a good job of getting them to come out in the open nowadays. And convincing a good chunk from the previous group to phase into the latter.)


    Also very true, thankfully
  26. Apr 4, 2019

    Inigo Montoya Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!

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    That's certainly revisionist.

    Having levels or grades of racism as you put somehow makes people feel that some aspects are acceptable.
    None of it is;from the so called ribbing and banter in the workplace to the overt and offensive type.
  27. Apr 4, 2019

    B&Wandmore New Member

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    It is actually the exact opposite, his best quality has always been to be an incredibly talented scorer, I have followed him in our youth teams for the last 3 years and he has always been the top scorer playing under age, he can see the net from everywhere. Where he was lacking and he has clearly improved massively during this season thanks to his training with the team and Allegri is his tactical awareness that he has shown also with the national team playing wide, he does not only score but now his hold play and passing is much better than before. With Atletico he started the action that led to the penalty on Bernardeschi besides almost scoring himself.

    He has an incredible talent but there are many youngsters that have failed despite talents like his and he has the tendency of liking himself too much like he did when he made us loose the primavera title because of a silly Panenka penalty but if he will be able to work hard and avoid going to get easy money immediately with Raiola, he will become the best Italian forward for the next few years, no doubt about it
  28. Apr 4, 2019

    Peyroteo Professional Ronaldo PR Guy

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    That's just terrible logic, just because there's different levels of racism doesn't mean it's acceptable in any way. Does saying 'murder is worse then robbery' mean that robbery is ok? What sort of logic is that?

    You can't equate some stupid guy having 'banter in the workplace' as you call it to a neo nazi that wants to eradicate or enslave a race ffs. It's not the same thing. Both are not acceptable, doesn't mean they should get the same judgement for it.
  29. Apr 4, 2019

    GioF New Member

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    Wow “fake outrage” what are you talking about? So strange.
    And yeah to react in such a way when you completely isolate one country and say it’s “the most racist culture” you’ve experienced and to say that in a public forum and expect no backlash just shows your thought process.
    I can’t waste my time with you as clearly we don’t see eye to eye.
    I’m deeply sorry for any racism you may have received in Italy as of course it’s disgusting but to condem the whole country is wrong in my opinion.
    Anyway it is what it is. I hope to have a better discussion with you on a different topic in the future.
  30. Apr 4, 2019

    villain Hates Beyoncé

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    I don't think anyone who's been racially abused & reacts badly is unaware of the fact that "provocation will not produce a positive outcome", so by criticising their reaction because they wont educate any racists by reacting in such a way, is patronising to the victim of racial abuse.
    That's why someone said it's tone death to suggest how black people should respond, and why I said what I said about policing how black people respond to racism - especially if it's a position you cannot understand. It is tone deaf, you're criticising the actions of the victim in response to being abused.

    The thing is, if someone wants to help - suggesting how black people should respond isn't helpful to anyone. If someone wants to help, educating the racists is better and leaving the victim of racism to react in anyway they see appropriate, is also better.
    If someone gets ridiculed for trying to help, and all of sudden refuses to help any more - then they didn't really want to help in the first place.
    Taking criticism or feedback & learning how to improve in the future are life skills that everyone learns at every stage in our lives - yet when it comes to sensitive topics such as racism, often times if someone is criticised or given feedback despite trying to help - they all of a sudden don't want to help anymore. That tells me that the person didn't really want to help in the first place.
    I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but criticism shouldn't make someone fearful of wanting to help.
  31. Apr 4, 2019

    Inigo Montoya Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!

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    I didn't but you did!

    None of it is acceptable and some of it is criminal yes but your post was reductive about the whole issue.

    You still don't get it!
  32. Apr 4, 2019

    B&Wandmore New Member

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    black people are people like anyone else and if there is somebody who is patronising them those are the morons that treat them differently because of their colour. Those of us who criticised Moise for his celebration under the opposing fans have done so not because we pretend to know how to react better to racial abuse but because on principle it is a mistake by professional players to react in that way to abuse, racial or otherwise in the very same way many criticised Ronaldo for his reaction to the rape/homo abuse by Atleti fans.

    It is a mistake not because the morons in the stadiums are reacting to a provocation, nobody with his marbles thinks that, but because in a stadium where there are thousands of people in potentially risky and emotionally charged situations it is not wise to exacerbate the problems, there are better ways to deal with that, starting from having the referee stop the game and eventually walking out altogether like it has been suggested by Matuidi. Ultimately the solution would be very simple and it is to pick one by one the morons and ban them for life.

    Now one can agree or not with this position but it is a disgrace the judgemental tone and the equations between it and the racists that is done by a lot of simple minded politically correct zealots also on this board.
  33. Apr 4, 2019

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    It will affect different people in different ways. How they react is essentially up to them.

    The other - really important - point, in my opinion, is that ignoring it and being ultra-professional is the worst thing to do. Racist abuse needs to be highlighted and shamed - if a player who suffers it wants to wind up the opposition fans that do it, I think that is a much better reaction than ducking the issue.
  34. Apr 4, 2019

    Bubz27 No I won’t change your tag line

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    During my time teaching, I've had 3 black italian boys transfer and all have had serious anger issues.

    I've always wondered about how they were treated and the effect it's had on their personality growing up.
  35. Apr 4, 2019

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt

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    I'll repeat, kean did not provoke anyone. They had been racially abusing him for 60 minutes before that. This discussion is pointless. It's because of idiots like Bonucci we are discussing this rather than the chants itself. '50% of blame"...feck off.
  36. Apr 4, 2019

    villain Hates Beyoncé

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    All he did was stand in front of them. I'm failing to see what's wrong with that.
  37. Apr 4, 2019

    Cloudface Full Member

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    Well not quite.

    He was standing in front of them whilst black. Which is a controversial thing for some people in here it seems.
  38. Apr 4, 2019

    MikeKing Full Member

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    Horrible thing. feck is wrong with people.
  39. Apr 4, 2019

    villain Hates Beyoncé

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    This is true.
  40. Apr 4, 2019

    B&Wandmore New Member

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    right that was the point, the problem is that is black and we are all racists, thanks God we have you to correct our ways