Morgan Schneiderlin | Everton Player

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by prath92, Jan 12, 2017.

  1. Sep 19, 2017

    Halftrack Full Member

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    :lol:

    The topic was how good Schneiderlin was for Southampton. What's happened afterwards has no bearing on that.

    "Wanyama was behind everything". It's such an incredibly dumb, and wrong, assertion to make. Wanyama taking the holding role gave Schneiderlin more freedom to move about, but it doesn't mean he was behind everything. That's what we've been trying to tell you. By saying "Wanyama was behind everything" you're suggesting he's the reason Schneiderlin played well. He wasn't. Schneiderlin did equally well when Wanyama wasn't on the pitch. What Wanyama's arrival did do was that Schneiderlin moved into the position and role where he really excelled. It was a consequence of Wanyama's arrival, sure, but what Schneiderlin did on the pitch is something only he should get credit for.

    People have been talking about how we've needed a defensive midfielder to free up Pogba. Now we have Matic, and if Pogba does step it up, then by your logic, Matic will have been behind everything. Pogba himself is no better than what we saw last season (or is he? Was Herrera behind everything last season?). I think we can all agree that this would be an idiotic thing to say. If a player gets a redefined role in the team, perhaps as a result of the arrival of another player, and this role is better suited to his skillset and he, as a result, ends up performing better, suggesting that the new arrival should get the credit for the performance increase is beyond moronic.
  2. Sep 19, 2017

    Mike09 Banned

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    Well, what happened afterwards actually prove that Schniederlin was good player for Southampton but wasn't good enough for top club.

    Well, clearly you said Wanyama was the one who gave Schneiderlin more freedom to move. So he was the one behind everything. The man who gave Schneiderlin more freedom to move. The man who made Schneiderlin from looked like a good player for Southampton to a player who looked like he was ready to play for bigger club.
  3. Sep 19, 2017

    Ish Lights on for Luke

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    Probably this. :( The more I think of it, the more spot on you probably are.

    I think we were all overhyped, maybe in part due to the barren state of the midfield options we were used to in the preceding years. We bought Schmidfield, all at the same time, after all.
  4. Sep 19, 2017

    ti vu Full Member

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    I kindly ask you again whether you even read? Wanyama joined in 2013 and didn't really have good season and missed huge chunk with injury yet Schneiderlin stepped up. I just explained tactically, Schneiderlin benefited from Wanyama and found his role knowing Wanyama would be his long term partner. Schneiderlin performance for most part was up to him. Not the Wanyama behind everything you claimed. You can't understand the difference when I spelled it out for you time and time again?

    Look at Fellaini (hypothetically) example again. I will try to break it down for you even more: 1. Without Fellaini: a. Lack aerial ability in defending set corner = take good physique Rashford from attacking position to defend b. Rashford is not as good aerial = losing both counter attacking option and still risk losing in aerial duel. 2. With Fellaini: Free Rashford for counter attack = better chance creation in counter attack while how insigficant it is Fellaini is better aerially despite a risk of Fellaini own brain fart causing problem. 3. Apply to Wanyama and Schneiderlin situation: Wanyama set Schneiderlin free tacticallyeven though he was worse of the two (Wanayama first season was forgettable to say the least), but Schneiderlin has to carry his own weight for his role, which Schneiderlin proved over 2 seasons.

    You made it like Wanayama did all the work and Schneiderlin just chipped in some and took all credit.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  5. Sep 19, 2017

    Halftrack Full Member

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    No, it proves nothing like it. Schneiderlin struggled do adapt to life at United. According to him, van Gaal was asking him to play in a way he wasn't comfortable with. Might be an excuse, but van Gaal tried to change Herrera as well, so I'm inclined to believe him. There was probably a mental aspect to it as well, the pressure of playing for a club like United might have gotten to him. It doesn't change the fact that he was as good as, if not better than, Wanyama when they were at Southampton.
    I give up. You're either incredibly thick, or you're purposefully misconstruing everything anyone is saying in order to try and prove that you were correct.
  6. Sep 19, 2017

    Mike09 Banned

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    Yea I delete my post because I want to repost a new one since I would like finish this once and for all. If you can't explain this to me again I think we better stop since you have failed to explain to me the difference.

    This is what I wanted to repost:

    So if both of us agree that ever since Wanyama joined Schneiderlin stepped up his level. So why are you still disagree with me? I cannot see the difference of what we have posted on this thread.

    We both have said the same thing. Ever since Wanyama joined Schneiderlin stepped up his level and before Wanyama joined he was just good player for Southampton. So Wanyama did hold the vital role here. The man who was behind everything. The man who made Schneiderlin to look like a player who was ready for bigger club.
  7. Sep 19, 2017

    ti vu Full Member

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    Read. It's like I am double posting and spamming same point all over when you just ignored.

    Peace.
  8. Sep 19, 2017

    Mike09 Banned

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    you said this:
    Schneiderlin benefited from Wanyama and found his role knowing Wanyama would be his long term partner.

    So Wanyama was the man who was behind everything. The man who gave Schneiderlin more freedom to roam and perform what he did. The man who made him looked like a better player from mid table to a player who was ready for bigger club. So Wanyama was the one who plays the vital role. And we both have said the same thing about how crucial Wanyama was.

    So there is no difference. Have a nice day man.
  9. Sep 19, 2017

    Mike09 Banned

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    So can you deny that Wanyama was the one who holds the vital role to Schneiderlin's performance?
  10. Sep 19, 2017

    ti vu Full Member

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    Evade the main point and spin just one point into your own directiin yet again...

    Anyways, agree to disagree. Peace.
  11. Sep 19, 2017

    Mike09 Banned

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    Sorry, but I don't see the difference of this post of yours

    with me saying Wanyama was behind everything and Schneiderlin was good player for mid table before Wanyama joined.

    I think we both have concluded how important Wanyama was in Schneiderlin's ''improvement'' or "step up".
  12. Sep 19, 2017

    Halftrack Full Member

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    Fecking hell, I can't believe I'm going back in.

    Yes, I can categorically deny that Wanyama played any kind of vital role in Schneiderlin's performances, as evident by the fact that Schneiderlin's performances didn't drop when Wanyama wasn't playing.

    To quote myself:
    The only ones who played a vital role in Schneiderlin's development was Pochettino, by giving him his new role, and Schneiderlin himself.

    And before you try to pull the same shit again: No, this is not the same as saying that Wanyama was behind everything. That implies that Wanyama, by his presence, inspired and elevated Schneiderlin to a new level. He didn't. Schneiderlin was given a new role and excelled in it. Simple as that.
  13. Sep 19, 2017

    Aza Boy Banned

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    Why keep arguing for this player. Shite player for us. Still shite for Everton. In 2 years he will downgrade to half-bottom clubs.
  14. Sep 19, 2017

    BenjaminP Banned

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    His skin is crispy like a salmon.
  15. Sep 19, 2017

    devilish Phil Neville's #1 fan

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    Yet another great transfer from LVG
  16. Sep 19, 2017

    ti vu Full Member

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    Don't you realize behind everything is big word?

    In the above example, Fellaini offered that tactical help, but for that tactic to work; Rashforf has to make it worth on counter. Then Rashford has to play well individually to justify him being one of the attacker on the field. If Rashford doesn't pull his own weight then, a manager can say feck counter attack, and go for slow build up and use other small, slow players in Rashford play. What if Fellaini backfire and responsible for a goal. In that same game Rashforf was MOTM but we can only get a draw out of it. Is Fellaini behind everything for Rashford in this case? In that scenario I posed, Fellaini is pretty much upgradeable, just like Wanyama in his first 2 seasons with Soton, while Schneiderlin was good (better) in his own.

    Remember I used the word "help" describing what Wanayama was to Schneiderlin. I didn't take away his credit.
  17. Sep 19, 2017

    saintquin New Member

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    Perhaps they just complemented each other.
    One may not have been as good for us without the other!
    Just a thought.
    :angel::angel::angel:
  18. Sep 19, 2017

    ti vu Full Member

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    Not denying that, but Wanyama first season he missed huge chunk of the season with injuries. It didn't stop Schneiderlin to perform well thus start the hype around him. Saying Wanyama behind everything is far from truth though. Schneiderlin didn't have the bottle for ambitious club doesn't mean he is dependent player at Soton.

    He did thing like this against the soon title winner.



    Wanyama was on the bench that game IIRC.
  19. Sep 19, 2017

    saintquin New Member

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    Agree with lots of that!

    :angel::angel::angel:
  20. Sep 20, 2017

    Obiorahking_ Full Member

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    So in 2015-16 when Madrid won CL with Casemiro-Modric-Kroos..Casemiro held it down so that Modric and Kroos could be free to create for BBC...Would you say the Casemiro was behind their big performances..?
  21. Sep 20, 2017

    Womp idiot

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    He was influential, yes. Before Casemeiro Madrid were just a squaf of very good players and were coming up short in Europe. It wasn't until he provided balance to the team that they started flourishing.
  22. Sep 20, 2017

    Mike09 Banned

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    This is exactly remind me of the poster who used Kante with Drinkwater or Matic as an example of Wanyama & Schneiderlin situation. The class, impact or influential and individual ability of Modric, Kroos or even Kante on their team are way above Schneiderlin did to Southampton. Casemiro did play an important role but both Modric & Kroos did prove themself as well without Casemiro what they are capable of. While Schneiderlin only started to step up his level when Wanyama came.

    There is a reason why Schneiderlin is only good for Southampton but not for United while Modric & Kroos are good enough for Real Madrid. If later on in your next reply you are going to mention "playing style" that we played doesn't get the best out of Schneiderlin, well it's simply because top club & mid table club have different playing style and expectation. At the end of the day his playing style was only suitable for mid table's expectation & Wanyama's vital role was the one who made him look like he was ready for the next level.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  23. Sep 20, 2017

    Adam_S New Member

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    Anderson was pretty popular, wasn't he?
  24. Sep 20, 2017

    Robbie Boy Full Member

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    Oh dear, those posts from that Mike lad are atrocious.
  25. Sep 20, 2017

    Sassy Colin Death or the gladioli!

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    All these essays about a player who, all the time he played for us, I had no idea what he even looked like.

    Anonymous barely covers it.
  26. Sep 20, 2017

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    I don't think you were good enough to post that, I made you good enough to post that. When I quit Redcafe, you will be sold to bluemoon or rawk.
  27. Sep 20, 2017

    Robbie Boy Full Member

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    :lol:

    Something like that alright. I mean, wtf is he even talking about :confused:
  28. Sep 21, 2017

    Obiorahking_ Full Member

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    Except that Schneiderlin had been playing well well before Wanyama arrived as another poster told you. How do you explain that?
  29. Sep 21, 2017

    Obiorahking_ Full Member

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    You are 100% correct. However, Do Modric and Kroos owe their footballing ability to Casemiro?( my fault if I didn't phrase my initial point correctly)
  30. Sep 21, 2017

    Womp idiot

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    Oh ye, no. Kroos and Modric are amongst the best midfielders on the planet, they're just top players. That being said, Casemeiro has allowed them to be more ifluential to the team.
  31. Sep 21, 2017

    Mike09 Banned

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    I don't remember I said Schneiderlin never play well so stop making a lie to defend yourself just like other posters did. I already told you before Wanyama arrived, Schneiderlin played well but after Wanyama came Schneiderlin stepped up his game to a player who looked like ready for top club. That "another poster" have mentioned the same thing in page 6 but he deny it.
  32. Sep 21, 2017

    Mike09 Banned

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    I will add more stuff so @Obiorahking_ can see the difference.

    Kroos & Modrid are top midfielder or even amongs best midfielders on the planet and Casemeiro made them look even more influential.

    Schneiderlin was just a player who was good enough for mid table like Southampton but Wanyama made him look like more influential and a player who are ready for top club.

    The only people who still deny these facts means these people think Schneiderlin was a top class midfielder before Wanyama joined Southampton.
  33. Sep 22, 2017

    Obiorahking_ Full Member

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    Your logic is faulty. the only way how Wanyama can make Schneiderlin look more influential is by allowing him more freedom to demonstrate the qualities he does best. Wanyama isn't the one who is reading the game and making key interceptions. Wanyama putting in the hard tackles in midfield or advancing the play and contributing the offense. All he did was allow Scheidlerin to play the game as he liked it.
  34. Sep 22, 2017

    Mike09 Banned

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    But you can't deny that Wanyama holds vital role here and you know it since he was the man who makes Schneiderlin from a good player for Southampton level to a player who looked like ready to step up his level to top club. But you still think this logic is faulty.

    You agree 100% with Casemiro's logic so I was expecting you to understand everything here, but it seems you still can't see the difference between Schneiderlin was just a mid table player before Wanyama came while Modric and Kroos were already top player before Casemiro came.
  35. Sep 22, 2017

    Halftrack Full Member

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    Problem is that there is no logic behind what you are saying. Yes, after Wanyama came in, Schneiderlin stepped up. This had nothing to do with Wanyama specifically, but was a result of the new role assigned to him by Pochettino. Wanyama is a good player, and having him next to you certainly helps (as opposed to, say, Tom Cleverley), but any decent holding mid would have done the same. Wanyama can't take credit for Schneiderlin's reading of the game, positioning, interceptions or movement. The fact that Schneiderlin performed on the same level when Wanyama was out of the team (which was half of their first season together) tells you that Wanyama was in no way vital to Schneiderlin looking like a very good player. His new role, assigned by Pochettino, was.

    And if you respond to this by either claiming that we in any way agree, or if you again ignore the fact that Wanyama playing or not had no bearing on Schneiderlin's performances, I might just top myself.
  36. Sep 22, 2017

    Danny Roberts Full Member

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    It would be quite something if you were to end it all over a debate about Wanyama's role in Schneiderlin's performances.

    All I have to contribute is that, by all accounts, he's been pretty average at Everton. That said, RK keeps picking him when Everton have decent options in that area and ditched Gareth Barry.
  37. Sep 22, 2017

    Mike09 Banned

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    I find it difficult why are we still trying to argue with fact that Schneiderlin was just good for a mid table player.

    Schneiderlin only received a new role from Poch mainly because Poch signed an important player which is holding midfielder like Wanyama. We thought Schneiderlin stepped up his level to a top midfielder but the fact is that he's always been the same, a mid table level player.

    Edit:

    I would like to make some additional comments here.

    I am sure if Xhaka or Huddlestone or Livermore were the holding midfielder, Schneiderlin won't perform the same when he was with Wanyama.

    You didn't give me a proof of how Schneiderlin performed on the same level when Wanyama was out of the team so it is not enough to defend your point or something that you can call it as "fact".
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  38. Sep 22, 2017

    DannyCAFC Full Member

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    Not that I'm arguing your main points, but what exactly is that video supposed to show? :lol: A couple of flicks over Yaya Toure and Eliaquim Mangala makes somebody a quality player all of a sudden?
  39. Sep 22, 2017

    Danny Roberts Full Member

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    Maybe agree to disagree?
  40. Sep 22, 2017

    Halftrack Full Member

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    And how could I lay it out to you in a way you'd find acceptable? I wouldn't even know where to look to find stats broken down by game for the seasons in question, to try and make a proper, statistical assessment. Stats by themselves don't really say much either, so I'm not sure what it would add. My claims are, however, based on the impressions I got while watching Southampton, and the Southampton fans I know and those I've come across online by and large agree that Schneiderlin was the better of the two when they were at the club. This is anecdotal evidence, granted, and carries no more value than what you are willing to assign it. Overall stats and ratings from the two seasons they played together seem to agree with this assessment, though.

    On the other hand, you were the one who made the original claim. The burden of proof is on you, strictly speaking. And I have yet to see you present anything other than the fact that Wanyama arrived at Southampton as proof that he was the brains behind the whole operation. How about actually trying to back up your own claims before demanding others back up theirs?

    He's already claimed people who very obviously disagreed with him actually agreed with him, because they said Wanyama's arrival lead to Schneiderlin's new role (because that's exactly the same as saying that Wanyama was behind everything). If I, or anyone else, were to back down at this point he'd most certainly take it as proof that he was right.