Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by prath92, Jan 12, 2017.
But who cares? Just agree to disagree even if he thinks you agree. Nice weather we're having.
You only called it as fact randomly. And now you can't find a way how to prove it correct. So who has no logic now?
I also don't think I have burden to prove because it's been proven that Schneiderlin was a mid table player at his best. Are you trying to tell me that Schneiderlin has always been a top player before Wanyama came?
We both are in agreement that Schneiderlin stepped up his level to a level that people thought he was ready for top club when Wanyama came. We both are in agreement that Wanyama holds vital role for reasons how Schneiderlin was able to look like someone who stepped up and also a reason of Poch decided to change Schneiderlin's role. What more do I need to prove here?
I actually already stopped replying his post a few days ago because I know there is no end but he came back again and jumped in to others conversation.
Unfair to say that Schneiderlin only played at that level for Southampton because of other players. He still had to perform. Besides I saw him completely dominate games without any other help.
The truth is, he was ready for a step up but lvg broke him. Completely and utterly broke him mentally. When Jose came along Schneiderlin didn't want to stay, he saw the way forward was to reboot his career in new surroundings.
Now he's playing for lvg-lite it's not going so well. Hope he can turn it around, by all accounts he's a good lad
Schneiderlin could do something without Wanyama?
Btw that's racist. It's not Mangala in the clip
To be fair, I'm not alone in stating that Schneiderlin played equally well with or without Wanyama in the team, in this thread even. And it's not even a controversial statement, Wanyama spent half the season out injured, including games against top sides in which Schneiderlin bossed it. But I've no idea where to look for the stats to back it up statistically, other than season totals. And if we're just looking at stats, the impression they give is that it was Schneiderlin who carried Wanyama. Did more defensive work, in addition to his greater contributions elsewhere. Strange that.
Thing is, I have at least tried to qualify my statement, you have done no such thing. It has not, in any way, been proven that Schneiderlin was a mid-table player at best, you thinking he was doesn't make it so. The fact that he was unable to perform at United, for whatever reason, doesn't mean it's fair to just dismiss his accomplishments before coming here as the work of others. He isn't the first player to move clubs, only to find himself unable to reproduce his form for his new club.
As for the bolded part: No, I've been very explicit about the fact that I completely disagree, I've made that abundantly clear. Stop claiming we agree when it's painfully obvious that we don't.
As for what you need to prove? Everything. You have yet to qualify your statement that Wanyama was behind everything. Him arriving at Southampton coinciding with Pochettino giving Schneiderlin a new role is not proof that Wanyama was behind everything.
If he was already a poor midtable player then wouldn't a guy like Wanyama just further expose it because Wanyama is giving freedom to Scheiderlin and if Morgan is a trash player he isn't going to be able to do much with the new freedom? Once again, your logic is still faulty.
I'm afraid you are mistaken. It was really Wanyama dominating the midfield. Your eyes and the stats have deceived you.
Don't worry, it happened to me too.
Why being a mid table player is considered to be poor? He was a good player for PL but only for Southampton level. He just wasn't a top player. Why is it so hard for you to understand this? No wonder you call it faulty because according to your logic being good player for mid table is "poor".
Well, I'm not alone as well for calling Schneiderlin is just a good player for mid table and Wanyama holds the vital role for Schneiderlin to look like he stepped up his game.
After knowing that Schneiderlin cannot perform in top club you are still trying to mention stats. On page 6 I also said that people were blind by stats at that time. Stats are just number but doesn't necessary mean the player is the most influential in the team. Herrera had better stats than Matic last season and what happen now? Matic is our starter in midfield ahead of Herrera.
Were you hiding under the rock up until now that you still don't know that Schneiderlin is just a mid table player? He failed to perform at United under LVG, and even when Jose came the manager still doesn't rate him for top club player. In fact, instead of using Schneiderlin we decided to spent 89m on a midfielder. And now he is back again to mid table club level. So no excuse!! I don't need stats to prove what I have said because they have been proven into reality even now.
You only think the only way to prove is using stats. I don't need stats to backup what I have said. I used a reality what happened now and in the past. Wanyama came, Schneiderlin stepped up his level which makes us believe Schneiderlin was the top player just because he had more tackles & intercepts. When both players joined top club, we all know the reality who has failed and who hasn't.
Most of your post has nothing to do with Schneiderlin's performances for Southampton, which proves to me that you have absolutely nothing to back up your claim that Wanyama made him look good. How Pogba is fits in to all of this is beyond me, it's not like he was brought in as a Schneiderlin replacement, is it?
No one, not one, has disputed that Schneiderlin failed to step up to the challenge after he joined United. He did, very much so. That does not lessen the performances he put up for Southampton. Neither does Wanyama performing for Spurs. None of that is relevant to the discussion at hand. As I've already stated, other players have moved clubs and failed to reproduce their previous form. Better players, even. That doesn't take away from what they did previously, does it?
You're spouting absolute nonsense, your whole argument hinges on the fact that Schneiderlin's new role for Southampton coincided with Wanyama joining. You've failed to specify what Wanyama did that helped Schneiderlin perform, you've pretty much provided nothing to back up your claim. I've explained why I believe what I do, I've pointed to the stats (not because those are what made me rate him, as you keep suggesting, but because they give you a baseline idea of his contributions), I've pointed out the fact that Schneiderlin was generally higher rated by everyone and their dog while they were both at Southampton. But everyone who thought Schneiderlin was the better one, or even just that Schneiderlin wasn't dependent on Wanyama to perform, are wrong. Why? Because you say so. That's all you've got to support your argument. Well, that, or talking about how they did afterwards.
I'd put money on you never having seen either in a Southampton shirt.
Whatever mate. This has gone too long. I didn't reply your post last time because I'm keen to move on from discussing with you. But it seems you can't just accept it and decided to jump into other's discussion and trying to force me to agree with you. I can't believe people want to make a long argument about a mid table player. Just like what @Danny Roberts said just agree to disagree. Learn how to do this first before you started jumped into other's conversation.
I didn't even visit the thread for two days? Last thing I did was answer a question you asked. Saw this thread getting bumped, eventually decided to see if it was still the same discussion, and it was. Figured that if you were still going at it, where's the harm in chipping in? I apologize for not realizing that the lack of a reply meant you were done. It's just that some people do that when they have no counter. Had you simply said that you were done, or that we should leave it (like you, ironically, ignored me doing), I'd have respected that.
And my goal wasn't to force you to agree with me. I disagreed with your claim, gave my reasons for doing so while repeatedly asking you to provide, well, anything at all, to back up your claim, something you were not interested in doing. Instead, all you've done is act dismissive towards others opinions while at the same time putting words in my mouth and expecting us to just to take you at your word. Maybe do those things less before you try to lecture others on proper debating etiquette.
As for Schneiderlin, he was either a very good player, or not. Schrödinger's Footballer, as far as our exchange is concerned.
Maybe it would have worked out if we hadn't got Herrera and Pogba as the Box to Box midfielders. And then there's Fellaini too who's much more influential in the games.
If we were to persist with him as a holding midfielder, that would mean we wouldn't have gotten Matic. And that would be detrimental to Mourinho's system.
Look, we all have our opinions and for what it's worth, I think Schneiderlin is a good player but at the end of the day it comes down to what the manager wants and needs. Clearly he wasn't a Jose player or he would have gotten the minutes.
From what I gathered, he wasn't willing to stay and fight for his place despite having a few years left on his contract. To me, that shows a weak mentality (a bit like Di Maria in that sense) and United we're always about having strong minded "tough" players. This is why Fellaini is still at the club and Schneiderlin is not.
So if Scheiderlin is a mid table player...wouldn't his mid table qualities be exposed since Wanyama will be freeing him up to show case his abilities which you define as midtable? You are still making zero sense buddy and the fact that you didn't address the heart of my argument and instead chose to criticize my characterizations of the terms "midtable" and "poor" is very telling and a bad look on you.
Because you claiming he was a midtable player in his Soton days makes it 100% true. Why don't you go into coaching? You seem to know way more about football than these other fools on this forum.
So what you are trying to say is that Schneiderlin was a top player before Wanyama came? And I did say he looked like a top player when Wanyama came.
You are the one who makes no sense here. Because Southampton was a mid table club. So why a player who is good enough for mid table quality or a player who is mid table quality will give disadvantage to Southampton??
Since he's a mid table player then his abilities are good enough for Southampton, that's why he was good enough for Southampton but not for top club.
I'm talking about matches where wanayama didn't play. Poch knew how to get the best out of Schneiderlin with or without wanayama. Like I said, lvg broke him
What you're failing to take into account is that wanayama followed poch, a manager who was getting the best out of them both. Schneiderlin went to united, where lvg systematically broke his natural game and his confidence. He has yet to recover.
He's taking the piss out of Mike.
I think what you have missed is that not only LVG who failed to get the best out of him but also Jose Mourinho doesn't rate him or even trust him from the start. If Schneiderlin is a top player, Jose wouldn't need to spend 89m on Pogba, he could have put his faith on Schneiderlin. Among all top box to box you can find, Schneiderlin is nowhere near to be in the same category. Being top players aren't just about technical ability but you need also to take into account the mentally or attitude attribute. Technical ability he's limited compared to the other top box to box, mentally he lacks of determination. At the end of the day he only reached a mid table level at his best.
Even if Schneiderlin followed Wanyama to Spurs, I don't think we could see him getting enough games ahead of Dembele either. So using LVG broke his confidence is just an excuse IMO. The result will still be similar even if Schneiderlin is at Spurs right now.
Why would Jose pick someone straight away who's confidence was shot to pieces?
Jose had to come in and get results. Carrick was the best holding player we had and Herrera and fellaini played well as box to box. So Schneiderlin had limited chances to rebuild his reputation
And with respect, pogba is nothing to do with what happened to Schneiderlin. Totally different players
So what you are trying to say is that Jose Mourinho can see straight away if the player has lost confidence or no without giving them a proper game? lol. Surely the 4 players that he has picked for his new players when he came here was already in his plan before his first training session. And also if I remember it as well Schneiderlin came later due to Euro and we have already linked with Pogba at that time. So Pogba should have already been in his plan before Jose met Schneiderlin. Like I already said, that losing confidence issue that people mentioned is just an excuse.
Let me ask you. Do you actually believe Schneiderlin will take over Dembele's spot by now if he had chosen Spurs over us? Even if I have to choose in 2014 which one I would prefer to be my box to box, Dembele over Schneiderlin all day mate.
I'm not comparing Schneiderlin & Pogba. I'm mentioning Pogba because Schneiderlin would have played in Pogba's place if he's a top box to box or player and we didn't need to spend 89m. And you can see the difference in quality what these two can offer in the same role. Even if you used the other top box to box player, Schneiderlin is still nowhere near.
You are comparing the, otherwise you wouldn't keep bringing it up. Pogba is not typical box to box, his priority is to attack. Schneiderlin is more breaking play up and keeping it simple.
And yes, I do believe at one point poch was looking to reunite Schneiderlin and wanayama in the Spurs midfield. Fortunately for them dembele is dong great
Yes, Morgan was highly rated at Southampton before he linked up with Wanyama. That's not to say we expected him to be world class but we were clearly justified in expecting him to be an important piece of our midfield puzzle and being desperately disappointed with his disappearing act.
However a couple of odd lines from that otherwise instructive piece caught my eye:
I know what's meant as Arteta was an offensive player in a midfield two but he sticks out a tad in this company.
I could go to extent by saying the way how Jose used Pogba is a roaming playmaker which also a box to box who can act as a playmaker. But I try to keep it as simple as possible so you can understand what I meant.
And Jose knew that Schneiderlin is too limited to be top class box to box. You look at others top box to box, they are not as limited as Schneiderlin.
It's not just Dembele doing great, he's been great since Fulham and I know who offers more attributes and quality. Do you?
You're clearly gonna stick by your (wrong) opinion so I think we will agree to disagree.
By the way next time you be a condescending prick, jog on elsewhere
I think the problem is that some believe themselves to be more intelligent than others, and thus consider their own opinions as worth more than those of, what they deem to be, lesser posters. As a result, they will dismiss anything you say without consideration, for you are not as intelligent as they are, and thus your opinion holds no value to them. Clearly, if they have not reached the same conclusion as you, it stands to reason that it is your conclusion that is wrong. You are, after all, less intelligent than them.
As such, they'll talk down to you. As a lesser being, you are not entitled to be treated with respect.
Also, they have psychic abilities and apparently know the thoughts and motivations of every person mentioned over the course of the discussion. Because why wouldn't they?
Not really sure how am I be considered like that just because I think Schneiderlin a mid table player. You asked I answered, when I asked properly you avoid it.
This is hilarious.
So you are saying that Wanyma did in fact expose his mid table qualities but they weren't noticable /obvious because he was at a mid table club, correct?
Except that you stated on many occasions that Wanyama made him look like he was ready for a top club, implying that he demonstrated qualities ready for being a top midfielder.
Looks like there is a double standard in your arguement buddy.
Amusing how some people can't move on and accept that Schneiderlin was just a Southampton level.
There is no double standard in my argument.
Schneiderlin was just a mid table midfielder before Wanyama came. With Wanyama, Schneiderlin seem to performed better and we thought he was ready for the top club. But that wasn't the case, we were too impressed with his defensive work which lead us to believe he was ready for top level. Wanyama was the one who gave him a freedom to roam, run like a headless chicken and made a lot of tackles.
We were impressed with his defensive work which led us to believe he could become a top holding midfielder, but he couldn't.
And as a box to box he's too limit compare to the other top class box to box.
There is clearly a double standard in your argument. You admitted that Wanyama did in fact give schneiderlin freedom to expose his mid table qualities but here you are saying that Schneiderlin performed better in the sense that it made him ready for a top club.
You seem to underestimate the role of b2b midfielders. The tackles they make don't just come out of nowhere, it takes a lot of timing just as the interceptions take good timing and good positioning. Kante and Vidal are beasts because of it. While schneiderlin was performing as well as said players l, he was damn well ready for a move to a top club.
Schneiderlin isn't too limited to be a B2B. If you think he was limited at Southampton, lord knows what you think of Fellaini and Kante.
Did you even read? I said With Wanyama, Schneiderlin seem to performed better and we thought and believed he was ready for the top club but that wasn't the case since we were just too impressed with his defensive work. I didn't say Schneiderlin performed better so there is no a double standard in my argument.
Me underestimate the role of box to box? I don't remember I talk bad about box to box. You are the one who underestimate a top class box to box.
Do you want me to name top class box to box? Vidal, Kante, Dembele, Nainggolan, even Pogba got picked ahead of Schneiderlin. Have you figure it out now why I said Schneiderlin is limited compared to the other top class box to box?
Kante is actually not a limited box to box. He's more technical than Schneiderlin as he has better ball retention than Schneiderlin.
And by the way, stop changing my words into something that I never meant. I never said he was a limited at Southampton. I said he was a limited player as a box to box compared to the other top box to box & I said he was good enough for Southampton level. Don't try to put these two into one.
With his thread bumped, im just thinking, Matic is what we hoped he would be like, right?
Matic is only good because of Wanyama I think.
He should be worried. Davies is outperforming him every time he gets on the pitch. Koeman was drop though becuase he was his signing.
Whats the difference between seeming to perform better vs performing better? Can you go into detail as to how he "seemed" to perform better?
How is Kante more technical than Morgan? He definitely displayed much better ball playing ability at Southampton than Kante did.
Separate names with a comma.