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No Mourinho and attacking again - how appealing do you think we are to top tier talent now?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Fortitude, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. Jan 7, 2019
    #41

    SadlerMUFC Full Member

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    Depends on when they are signed and for how much money. I would rather we recognized their talent early. Before the rest of the world takes note of it. Just like we did with CR7. Signing M'Bappe now would be crazy. As for the other two, I haven't really seen them play that much so I don't know if they would be worth what people are quoting for them. Personally, I think we should have signed (or made an attempt to sign) De Ligt after the Euro finals. An 18 year old captaining his team in a European finals is an obvious talent. Why we wait 2 years to even think about it is the real head scratcher for me
  2. Jan 7, 2019
    #42

    finneh Full Member

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    In terms of signing top level players I'd say the following are the only considerations:

    90% - Money
    10% - Ability to win League & CL trophies in the near future

    I don't believe that "attacking football", "manager", "location" or "currently in the CL" play any part whatsoever. Some of the biggest names we've ever signed have occurred whilst we play dire football, in rainy Manchester and without CL Football.

    Generally the people who believe that these things are factors are fans of teams that have them and so have a vested interest in believing they're more attractive as a result. You'll get (deluded) Spurs, Chelsea or Arsenal fans for example who will believe certain players would choose them over United due to being in London. Likewise you may have City fans believing that players would choose them over United because of their manager or style of play.

    However when you actually look at the world class players who move clubs the facts speak for themselves. Sanchez turning down Man City due to the wage on offer... Pogba signing for United whilst we played dire football and were not in the Champions League, Di Maria/Falcao/Aguero/Pogba/Toure/De Bruyne etc happy to play in miserable Manchester, Jorginho signing for Chelsea whilst they're not in the CL.

    What all these players have in common was that the salary on offer at the clubs they moved to was greater than at both the clubs they were at beforehand and greater than other clubs were willing to pay.
  3. Jan 7, 2019
    #43

    Eric's Seagull Full Member

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    According to this article we had the chance to sign De Ligt and De Jong earlier in their carreers: https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...otball-news/man-utd-transfer-de-jong-15530351
  4. Jan 7, 2019
    #44

    finneh Full Member

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    We have the chance to sign every single player earlier in their careers. The problem is both identifying the talent and balancing the probability of success with the costs involved.

    If De Ligt was available at £20m when we realised he was potentially a very good player... If the club decided that the chance of him being a great first team player at United (for whatever reason) was say 10%, then the club would obviously decide this is not a risk worth taking as we'd be better off spending £70m on a ready made great player.

    The same is the case if he was available at £2m but the club felt there was only a 1% chance he'd end up as a great first team player.
  5. Jan 7, 2019
    #45

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    'Top tier talent' is not restricted to elite, established players; it encompasses all ages and is just as important when talking about the Sancho's, DeLigt's and De Jong's on the market who have yet to make their move to a financial powerhouse club.

    In fact, for me, it's far more important with regard to the latter than it is in chasing £200m+ players who we are in no position to get the best out of yet.
  6. Jan 7, 2019
    #46

    Eric's Seagull Full Member

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    I understand your point in taking the risk.
    But for example £20m isn't that much money these days for someone who has a lot of potential. Regarding their age you could still possibly get a reasonable amount back in transfer fee.
    Regarding how rich we are I don't think we should be that bothered.

    I cant find article at moment but I read we could have had De Jong and De Light for a combined 675k.

    If we have the chance to sign every single player earlier in their careers then someone should be doing a better job on deciding whether we should be signing them?
  7. Jan 7, 2019
    #47

    Andersons Dietician Full Member

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    I was thinking about this last night more for this January window but I would think if you’re an established player like a Koulibaly then Manchester United even right now is probably quite a prospect, but let’s say you’re a 20 yr old highly touted player and everyone is tipping you for the top if you’re smart, you’re probably not going to move to us until a manager is in place as you don’t know if that person has the trust in you but come summer I would think the likes of your DeLigts, DeJongs, Sanchos and so on would find us quite the prospect as they are practically guaranteed first teamers, where maybe some of the others can’t offer that.

    The Summer I would imagine the manager is done and announced by the end of this season so it’s straight down to buisness and a DOF can go forth and make the necessary signings and we can sell an idea and a project, we are a big name in football and to play for this club should be an honour for any footballer so I would think the overall draw is there for most players and if not money talks.

    However if we are talking players like your Neymar’s, Mbappe, Dybala, Varane and the likes then maybe we don’t quite have that pulling power currently.
  8. Jan 7, 2019
    #48

    Adam-Utd Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    I think we will have more chance to sign attacking players now that Jose has gone yes.

    The best players want to play for the best teams, so if we can continue our good form into the summer, i'm sure people will be happy to join.
  9. Jan 7, 2019
    #49

    Shark @NotShark

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    The way I see it, if we make top four that’s great, if not it’s not the end of the world considering where we were when Ole took over. We will still still sign top talent, hopefully with more planning in place to avoid more flops. Then we can concentrate on getting back to the top of the Premier League, Europe can wait.
  10. Jan 7, 2019
    #50

    Gasolin Full Member

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    As long as we don't win back titles, we won't be appealing to big players.
  11. Jan 7, 2019
    #51

    Steerpike Full Member

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    I would be delighted if we didn't sign any big name players. If the current feeling of being in transition puts a few of the supposed superstars off joining us, then I regard that as a good thing. I'm fed up with us paying over the odds for players who don't actually improve the team.

    Transfers are always a risk, and we haven't been that successful with the choices we've made since Fergie retired. I'd much prefer it if we signed players who were on the way up and had something to prove, or promoted players from within our youth system, rather than going for someone who has already been elevated to greatness by the media.

    To the original question, I think the name and spending power of Manchester United mean we still have some heft in the transfer market. Attracting the big names might be more difficult (i.e. we'd have to pay them more) if we didn't qualify for the Champions League, but then what's the attraction of signing such fickle individuals anyway?
  12. Jan 7, 2019
    #52

    Shark @NotShark

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    Big players help you do that though. You’ve got to start somewhere, just as Klopp’ Liverpool have. No reason why we can’t do even better with the right signings.
  13. Jan 7, 2019
    #53

    red thru&thru Full Member

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  14. Jan 7, 2019
    #54

    GBBQ Full Member

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    You can't just buy all the players though, you have to consider whether there would be the necessary room for them to grow from teenager with potential to first team player. Take De Ligt for example, we have Tuanzebe and Fosu Mensah playing in similar positions and they can't get game time. In 2019 we can say De Ligt is a better prospect that those 2 but in 2016 its a harder call to make and if you buy him in 2016 and he doesn't get consistent game time or has a disastrous loan spell at Fulham then he doesn't develop in quite the same way he is now.
  15. Jan 7, 2019
    #55

    fellaini's barber Full Member

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    What manager,history,appeal or success did City have when they signed top talent like Aguero,Silva,Kompany,Toure etc?
  16. Jan 7, 2019
    #56

    youmeletsfly New Member

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    Well said. In plain English -> money talks.

    If you pay well, you get good players.
  17. Jan 7, 2019
    #57

    DBT85 Full Member

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    "I have always dreamed of play for Manchester"

    Seem to remember that line paraded.
  18. Jan 7, 2019
    #58

    ash_86 Full Member

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    This kind of makes sense. If players wants money, they could get that in China. Players themselves worry about progression and if the team enables them to give their very best. This is so much valid for young promising players such as Mbappe and De Jong. Until we improve our setup and continue to show attacking patterns, it's going to be difficult to sign young promising talents.
  19. Jan 7, 2019
    #59

    finneh Full Member

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    A little off topic but if we bought every £350k European youngster that we thought had potential we'd need to invest in a small country to train them all.

    There will be literally thousands of youngsters that our scouts will be watching on an annual basis and we'll sign them as early as we believe that the cost-benefit is in our favour. The likes of Chong, Periera, Gomes, Macheda, Pogba etc we made a move when they were 16 or younger because we felt they had great potential and were worth the gamble at the time. The likes of Jones, Shaw, Bailly & Lindelof we bought a few years later in their careers once we thought there was a far greater chance of success so paid the premium.

    For us to get one De Lijt for £350k we'd have to sign and pay the wages to dozens and dozens of potentially great young players of which all but one would end up not making it, that's working on the assumption that De Lijt will actually make the step up from Dutch football. We could purchase him tomorrow for £70m and he still might end up either not being able to adapt or becoming permanently injured ala Jones.
  20. Jan 7, 2019
    #60

    TheRedDevil'sAdvocate Full Member

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    I'd say not much... yet. We have the cash, that much is true, but we are still a wreck of a team and it has less to do with (Mourinho's) reserved tactics and more with the roles we assign to our potential targets. For example, getting Di Maria isn't a bad choice per se but wanting to make a player who didn't even want to come here in the first place the lynchpin of your creativity is a recipe for disaster. And signing a washed up Schweinsteiger or going from targets like Kroos and Fabregas to Fellaini is too. Does anybody know why we signed Sanchez? Probably because Mourinho decided that he wanted a readymade solution on the left wing and he was granted his wish by our CEO who loves a marquee signing and who also rewarded Jose with a contract extension. But then one of our brightest prospects, Martial, saw that he wouldn't be getting much playing time and started looking for a way out of the club. Then our CEO made a U-turn and decided that the manager would not be backed at any cost, something that, funnily enough, didn't allow us to get two players (a CB and a winger who can cross the ball) we desperately needed. Then the manager, who had already made a mess of his own in the transfer market, was left with a 100 million poacher/the worst first touch in the universe and limited service to him, a dissatisfied 100 million WC winner and without a reference point at the back. Regardless of whether i was a renown superstar or a young top-class talent, personally i wouldn't get anywhere near a club like that. And that's the kind of shite we got to sort out first.

    Sir Alex knew how to deal with all this stuff, in fact, it was one of his greatest attributes as a manager: a) Pay the money in order to inject the quality in specific areas (for instance, he always was willing to pay and "secure" the goals from his forwards with RvP being the most recent example) and get the leaders he wanted b) give chances to young players to show their worth and their strength of character in order to create the next leaders out of them and c) be aggressive in the market at the sight of a great young British/Irish prospect (see how we signed Keane). I have no doubt in my mind that he would have already got Kane in a red shirt by now and he would have left Levy fuming in his office. The difference was that he had already laid down concrete foundations in terms of style and roles within the first team. The players knew where they were coming and what was expected of them when they were putting their signatures on their contracts.

    Our problem is that we're still looking for the one man who will make all take all responsibility on his shoulders and will take us by the hand and lead us to the land of plenty. Well, good luck with that. Once the powers that be realise how truly unique SAF was, we'll start building a structure within the club that will allow us to solve our biggest issue: Not how to get Mbappe, De Ligt, De Jong or Neymar and the likes but how to use them in order to get the best out of them.
  21. Jan 7, 2019
    #61

    Nikelesh Reddy Full Member

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    I still think that we are a very attractive proposition for young British players.I still think that most young British players would chose United over other top clubs because of the cultural significance of Manchester United to British society...But I think for non-British players,United is increasingly becoming just one of the top 6 clubs in England.

    We are still a very attractive proposition,but so are Man City,Chelsea or any other top 6 club...For non-British players,the difference between United and the rest is increasingly getting blurred....
  22. Jan 7, 2019
    #62

    LoveFootball Banned

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    This post is so depressing and negative, reading it you'll think we didn't brought in the best french player (Ibra), best Calcio player (Pogba), best Bundesliga player (Mkhytarian) and one of the best la liga young talent (Bailly) with no CL football to show and coming from an horrible season under LVG.

    What attract great players nowadays is money. You pay the most, you get the best.
  23. Jan 7, 2019
    #63

    OldPop Full Member

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    Manchester United has attracted and will attract top talent as long as we are a great club with good finances, make big investments and have a long-term plan that speaks for new success. A great story when it comes to winning titles doesn't make it worse.

    If the players and their agents want to sign as long and expensive contracts as possible, and they certainly want, it will be less important to be guaranteed a certain coach or to play CL one year. Most assume that a large club will always hire skilled coaches and try to win more victories, but no one knows what applies in two, three or maybe five years.

    So, as already pointed out in this thread, I believe that the money and future plans are generally crucial for the ability to recruit talents. What ultimately determines which club the talent chooses is more difficult to know. It can certainly be details like the language, personal relationships with the club or teammates, the climate and so on.
  24. Jan 7, 2019
    #64

    Andy_Cole Full Member

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    You’re only as good as your last 5 games. We’ve won our last 5 so we’re the best in world.
  25. Jan 7, 2019
    #65

    norm87cro New Member

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    Not really and quite frankly except Pogba what prime World Class talent did we sign in that period?
  26. Jan 7, 2019
    #66

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    What prime world class talent have we signed in the last decade?

    Di maria? Turned out well.

    But pogba, ibra, mkhy and bailly looked a terrific window at the time.
    What has been a better window?
  27. Jan 7, 2019
    #67

    norm87cro New Member

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    Di Maria is at PSG now and despite his talent maybe was too much in for the money (LVG didn't help him either), Ibra is 37 and aldo I like him Bailly is a prospect at best. If I was to answer what was the best window since I follow United it would be the one we singed Vidic and Evra (but offcourse we couldn't imagine the impact those two would have in the next 5 seasons for us but they we're not considered World class back on 05/06 so I guess I could compare Pogba's signing to those of RVN, Rooney and Ferdinand in terms of a stellar signings).
  28. Jan 7, 2019
    #68

    fellaini's barber Full Member

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    We were after some of them too but they chose City instead. With all our history and despite having SAF and all. These guys don't give a shit, they go where money calls. Add Robinho to the list,fecking Mark Hughes was manager then
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  29. Jan 7, 2019
    #69

    Schmeichel's Cartwheel Full Member

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    More appealing than most in England as we pay the highest wages. We will always struggle going head to head with the likes of Madrid and Barca due to the weather. So we'll have to overpay a lot to get players over them. Someone like Dybala would probably take 200k a week from Madrid over 300k a week from United or City, just for the lifestyle.
  30. Jan 7, 2019
    #70

    Ibrahimorich New Member

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    Arsenal signed Aubameyang 1 year ago. They're in the same position basically. Only we're a bigger name and can pay more. So I don't think we'll have too many issues.

    We never get players if Barca or Real are in for them anyway
  31. Jan 7, 2019
    #71

    Loublaze ATLien

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    A thread like this was made after Moyes was sacked, LVG too :lol:
  32. Jan 7, 2019
    #72

    Teja New Member

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    Other than Barca, Real and maybe Bayern (for German players), we're as good / better than any club in the world in terms of pulling power. A star manager (like Zidane) or a star player (like Pogba) will just add to that power.

    I'm pretty sure we can go head to head against PSG / City / Chelsea if we really want a player but the problem seems to be identifying who we really want and not just going after players because we're terrified of rivals picking them up (Sanchez / Fred).
  33. Jan 8, 2019
    #73

    Eric's Seagull Full Member

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    I think I understand your point now. That there could be potentially be lots of players around the £350k mark and it could be hit and miss, risk vs reward.
    It is a matter of picking the ones at the time who we think are going to be more suitable for us in the future. We could pick someone at that a young age and they turn out to be a superstar in the future or they could be someone who completely flops.

    I also understand the bit about paying a premium for players a bit older as these players are further into their career so in effect might have a chance of forging a decent career as they have been playing the game a bit longer.

    I can also understand the bit about a new player coming from a new league and then there is a chance the worst case scenario which you mentioned which I put in bold. As one of the last things the club want to do is look stupid and waste e.g £70m and be stuck with injury prone player on potentially mega wages.
  34. Jan 8, 2019
    #74

    Eric's Seagull Full Member

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    I do understand how we cant sign everybody but Chelsea currently have 40 players out on loan per https://www.chelseafc.com/en/teams/on-loan-players and we have 9. By signing more players and loaning them out statistically we have more of a chance of unearthing a gem. Do you think that that this is something we should be looking at and seeing if there is anything that they do differently that we could mimic that would be of aid to us?
  35. Jan 8, 2019
    #75

    Patrick08 Full Member

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    Teams now a days don't play Young players from loan enough when they have little chance to sign them in the future. Epl clubs are. Rich enough to look for different options.
  36. Jan 8, 2019
    #76

    Red14Devil9 New Member

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    I think that we are appealing as before, but we are a lot more watchable at the moment. I still think that we will need time before we will start winning big trophies again, but this is a lot better than under Mourinho.
  37. Jan 8, 2019
    #77

    GBBQ Full Member

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    Personally, no. I think that Chelsea's approach might be more of a revenue generating plan rather than one to bring players through.

    They have had this method in place for years and how many of their loanees have actually made it through to being first team regulars? Compare that with Lingard, Rashford and (eventually) Pogba in the team and the likes of Greenwood, Chong and Gomes looking like potential talent. Yes it would be great if we had De Ligt or De Jong but I don't think missing them means our system isn't producing a higher level than most teams.
  38. Jan 8, 2019
    #78

    buchansleftleg Full Member

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    I want hungry players, recently we have often mistaken greed for hunger.

    That's what I want a DOF and a sound scouting network to do for the club - spot the difference. Woodward hasn't got the knack of spotting the difference and we can't just place trust in the mega agents.
  39. Jan 8, 2019
    #79

    Inter Yer Nan Full Member

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    The right manager will get the right players in over the summer. Champions league shouldn't affect that since the "right players" aren't necessarily ready made superstars. It's a few missing pieces; a defender or two, perhaps a midfielder and/or a right sided forward and like I said it doesn't have to be a superstar.
  40. Jan 8, 2019
    #80

    MyOnlySolskjaer Creator of Player Performance threads

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    We signed 3 Champions League calibre talents in Zlatan, Mkhi and Pogba without CL football. The club has a lot of money and can easily attract big players.