Not good enough for your country. Not good enough for Utd.

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by simplyared, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Jun 21, 2018

    Foxbatt Full Member

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    Silly post. Most of the top Spanish players play for Spanish clubs of Barca, Real and Athletico. So its obvious they will have more international players from those clubs.
    The same with the German clubs too.
    Smalling should have been in the England squad. Darmian is an Italian International. Sanchez plays for Chile and Valencia for Ecuador. Out reserve keeper is number 1 for Argentina. Herrera is not a starter in all games for United as the same with Martial but all our starters are Internationals. Smalling is the only one who missed out from the International squad. Even Daley Blind is a regular for Holland.
  2. Jun 21, 2018

    redmanx New Member

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    Smalling should try for the national wrestling team, its what he's best at.
  3. Jun 21, 2018

    Carolina Red Moderator Staff

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    “Realistic” ins and outs... followed by lists of Bale, Neymar, Verratti, etc.
  4. Jun 22, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    I would imagine we can all agree the quality of the English team has dropped considerably over the years which is obviously down to the influx of foreign players to the PL. The likes of Jordan Henderson and even our own Ashley Young at left back or Phil Jones for that matter, wouldn't have figured in a World Cup squad in the days of Steve Bruce or even peak Carrick. We had more English players at top level then and therefore more difficult to get into the team and therefore the comparison is irrelevant.

    For those bringing up Cantona: he would have played more regularly for France if he hadn't fallen out with the establishment. Think he called the French coach (the one before Platini) a bag of shit or something along those lines. Also he was suspended from the game for a long period.

    Re Fellaini: he's obviously been selected for Belgium going on his qualities as a very good squad player. Has the quality to come off the bench and change a game which gives the coach more options. Exactly why Mourinho rates him so highly.
  5. Jun 22, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    It's no coincidence that our best 2 midfielders Pogba and Matic are both internationals.
    I'm saying neither Mata or Herrera are good enough for Man Utd if we are to compete at top level. Agreed the quality of the Spanish midfield is high but I'm saying that is the level we must be at. The Spanish midfield WC squad:
    Busquets, Isco, Alcantara, Silva, Iniesta, Saul, Koke.
    We have now brought in Fred who is good enough to get into the Brazilian WC squad and obviously should be at a level to play for Manchester Utd.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  6. Jun 22, 2018

    NinjaZombie Punched the air when Liverpool beat City

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    It's Deschamps though. He's a crap manager.
  7. Jun 22, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Coman would have been in the French squad had it not been for injury and Ribery has refused to play for his country so maybe 2 more from Bayern
  8. Jun 22, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Still doesn't change much. It's just a difference of 1 or 2 players.

    Anyways this is way too stupid thread, I'm out.
  9. Jun 22, 2018

    tjb Full Member

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    People are being way too harsh. I see where the OP is coming from. Of course there are internationals who do not get in based on other factors, but when you see a top side like barcelona, real madrid or bayern, their internationals are solidly internationals, without the threat of being dropped on form basis, in general this is the level united should be aiming for. Internationals that can start for top tier world cup teams. Martial, Smalling etc are not that either. They were rightfully left off their respective squads based on performances.
  10. Jun 22, 2018

    tjb Full Member

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    Martial is not better than anyone in the French squad. It has nothing to do with Deschamps. When he comes on for France, he does not provide a consistent threat... he tends to be toothless, like he usually is creatively for United.
  11. Jun 22, 2018

    KingMinger22 City >>> United. Moaning twat

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    I agree with the OP.

    Do Barca, Real or Bayern have any starters that aren't internationals? I doubt it.

    City neither, except Sane which is literally beyond negligence by Germany's management.
  12. Jun 22, 2018

    KingMinger22 City >>> United. Moaning twat

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    England, after having a solid six world class players at the 2010 World Cup, have dipped in terms of talent in the squad.

    All countries have experienced these dips at one point or another.

    Based on the results of the u23s, u21s, u19s, etc. we should see some top draw players coming through in the next five years.
  13. Jun 22, 2018

    KingMinger22 City >>> United. Moaning twat

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    Point is...

    Playing for United is no longer a barrometer that you are truly a quality player as we have had SO MANY mediocre and poor players getting game time at the club for the last five years. And still do, in fact. But Mourinho is doing a good job of moving away from that.
  14. Jun 22, 2018

    Schmeichel's Cartwheel Full Member

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    We went out to the likes of Torpedo Moscow, Galatasaray & Gothenburg back then, so how is it a ridiculous statement?
  15. Jun 23, 2018

    cyril C Full Member

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    I can't understand the argument here, because the logic is totally wrong. let's take Shaw as example, had he been playing regularly for Utd, he would probably been defacto choice of England. So the logic should be, Shaw is not chosen for England because he is not chosen in Utd as regular. When you don't play enough at club level, you are not selected regardless of how talent you are. Question should be put to the Players themselves, if you are such a talent, why can't you play regularly. The same logic apply to Wilshere. Herrera started regularly for us 2 seasons ago, same for Mata, but they were often overlook by Spain, because Spain have much better choices. Last season when we have better players, Herrera and Mata rarely starts. It only indicates how talent they are, and obviously they are overlooked by Spain.

    Another argument point of more international the better. So you would prefer International from Malta, Cyprus etc., because they are international? Or you simply pick players out of their quality? International experience help, same to CL/Europa experience, but should not be the primary consideration factor.
  16. Jun 23, 2018

    Ekeke Full Member

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    Bayern have Javi Martinez who like Ander isnt playing for Spain.

    The reason this logic doesnt make sense is because we could have a very good team of players who didnt get into the Spain, Brazil and France squads.

    Meanwhile we could have the full international squad of San Marino and be relegated to the championship.

    Some countries are a lot better than others and have certain positions where its hard to even get into the squad.

    Our most picked team last season has just 2 players who arent in their international squads. 1 of those is our best CB. The other plays for Spain where he's competing with Silva and a player who featured in 44 matches for Real Madrid last season.

    I'd suggest we're more than 2 players away from being equal to Barcelona, Real or Bayern and signing 3 players who start for Morocco probably isnt going to make much of a difference.
  17. Jun 23, 2018

    Hamadovich86 Full Member

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    This. Our standards as a club have gone down significantly with so many mediocre players putting on the red shirt.

    As for the OP I can totally understand the point being made, most Man United players should be good enough to at least be in the squad for their country. Sometimes there are exceptions like Scholes, Carrick and Cantona but most of the squad should be there with their national teams which is actually the case with United but several player's countries did not reach the world cup this year.
  18. Jun 23, 2018

    Bestietom Full Member

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    Think Bruce only got 1 cap and he was our captain.
  19. Jun 23, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Ok so some posters now bringing in Malta, Cyprus and San Marino to get a point over. Going off the rails!
  20. Jun 23, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Rashford's inclusion in the England squad kills your agument. Even though he's not been a regular starter for us he's at the WC. And he's there because he's at that level!
  21. Jun 23, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    You hit the nail on the head when you mention Smalling. Whether he's our best CB is debatable. However he's not in the England squad because he's not considered good enough. Seeing England's opening game the other night it was obvious Southgate wants ball playing CB's in his line up. His tactics are built on getting the ball forward quickly out of defence. Stones and Maguire are capable of achieving that. Smalling isn't! Major problem for us last season was our slow and ineffective build up coming out of defence where Smalling is one of the reasons.
  22. Jun 23, 2018

    cyril C Full Member

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    On the contrary. Rashford has been used mostly as impact Sub last season and he has proven himself. You can argue for Defoe or Carroll but perhaps Rashford is younger and more versatile than either of these 2.
  23. Jun 23, 2018

    Ramshock CAF Pilib De Brún Translator

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    :lol: wut?
  24. Jun 23, 2018

    Ekeke Full Member

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    Its not debatable. He's our best CB because he defends the best of all our defenders.

    He's also better than any CB England uses. Whoopdidoo England beat Tunisia, Belgium showed thats not impressive.
  25. Jun 23, 2018

    devilish Juventus fan who used to support United

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    I never rated Steve Bruce. He was built like a rock but he had the pace and the elegance of a rock too. The EPL's meah quality of the time + the likes of Schmeichel, Pally, Irwin, Ince and Keane/Robson made it possible for him to thrive at United but there again we anyone could slot right inside that defence and do well.


    Returning to the subject, one need to be very careful on how to judge things. Some players have top competition to compete against for places. Its unbelievable how the likes of Di Canio, Arteta, Tassotti and Herrera had barely ever played for their national team. Ideology plays a part in it too. For example ahole managers might let players like Vialli, Mancini or Icardi out of a world cup for reasons god only knows why.
  26. Jun 23, 2018

    Minimalist Full Member

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    Fcuking nonsense. Smalling is by far our best centre-back and most dependable one. He's not in the squad because Southgate is a social hand-grenade and thinks he's playing Football Manager.
  27. Jun 23, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Martinez has fallen down the pecking order at Bayern since the return of coach Jupp Heynckes, and is unsettled at the club. However the other Spaniard: 27 yr old Thiago, who Guardiola brought to the club in 2013 is a regular for both club and country.
  28. Jun 23, 2018

    Minimalist Full Member

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    If in doubt OP, just keep doubling down.

    Never admitting you're wrong - it's the height of maturity I've heard people say.
  29. Jun 23, 2018

    Ekeke Full Member

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    He started 18 games with 4 more off the bench in the league. Thats 4 less games than Ander participated in.
  30. Jun 23, 2018

    Foxbatt Full Member

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    I think Smalling is not a world class defender but I also think he is better than any of the other English central defenders. It is a myth that England had world class central defenders a few years back. Players like Adams, Butcher are good players but the moment they come up against a world class striker they get torn apart.
  31. Jun 23, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Ok @Minimalist re Smalling and going on last season he was our best CB. Lindelöf is a Swedish international and imv is nowhere near the level required. This goes against what I'm saying in the OP. Having said that, if we are to move on and take on the big guns and compete at top level, winning titles, then Smalling is not good enough imv. We are desperate for a new ball playing modern CB who can lead the line and take us to that level.
  32. Jun 23, 2018

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    You've explained yourself in this line why this is a completely pointless measurement.
  33. Jun 23, 2018

    killerboi2 New Member

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    There will always be coaches putting personal over business and choosing players because they don't like them (no way on Earth was Tevez not good enough for Argentina in World Cup 2014 for instance). Never good enough for your country, not good enough for United might have some merit to it. Mata has played over 40 games for Spain, been part of World Cup squads for Spain, scored in Euro 2012 final etc. Someone mentioned Barry playing more games than Carrick - at least Carrick was good enough to still get games for England. There will still be obvious exceptions though, like Steve Bruce.
  34. Jun 24, 2018

    World Game Full Member

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    Not good enough for your country not good enough for utd =/= good enough for your country good enough for utd. People using the 2nd argument to argue against the first have even more flawed logic than the OP.
  35. Jun 24, 2018

    Nick7 Full Member

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    Both are stupid, and it's being used to highlight how terrible the original argument is. That's the point.
  36. Jun 24, 2018

    NLunited New Member

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    Delete this thread. Utter nonsense.
  37. Jun 24, 2018

    Ashley R1+O New Member

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    Agree. Shocker.
  38. Jun 24, 2018

    Nikelesh Reddy Full Member

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    Steve Bruce,Eric Cantona,Michael Carrick...Enough said...
  39. Jul 2, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Fellaini good enough for his country. Good enough for us!
  40. Jul 3, 2018

    NLunited New Member

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    Wanna bet Fellaini scores winning header in final?