Not good enough for your country. Not good enough for Utd.

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by simplyared, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Jul 3, 2018

    Marcky411 Full Member

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    Besides Smalling all the other names on your list hardly get any game/playing time and that is a minimum requirement to be able to even be selected for your national team.
  2. Jul 4, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Rashford, Fellaini, Jones and Lindelöf are all in Russia.
  3. Jul 4, 2018

    roonster09 Full Member

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    ManUtd have 9 players in the Quarter finals. Apparently more than any other club. So obviously we have great squad, at least going by this thread.
  4. Jul 4, 2018

    Marcky411 Full Member

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    Very true but now you naming players that weren't on your previous list of names, to which I was referring. In your list here, Rashford has played a lot of minutes, Jones ample game time till injury. Fellaini also injury, when fit got game time and Lindelof always a first choice for his country, not much competition for places.
    In your previous list of names we are talking about players who even when fit get to mainly warm a bench and watch the game just like we do.
  5. Jul 4, 2018

    RedStarUnited Full Member

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    The fact that an England manager has left Smalling at home because he isnt good enough on the ball yet Jose starts him every match...really hurts.
  6. Jul 4, 2018

    Murray3007 Full Member

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    Yet looking at the 3 of them defending none of them are as good as Smalling, which i think will cost England in the WC,
  7. Jul 4, 2018

    Tiber Full Member

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    Fellaini plays every game for his Country, so does Romero. Steve Bruce never got a single cap and Carrick was constantly overlooked.

    Pretty absurd argument imo
  8. Jul 4, 2018

    Revan Assumptionman

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    England wouldn't have been able to play as they are doing if Smalling has been one of their starting CBs. Maybe he should have been in the bench for situations when England decides to park the bus, but put him in that team and entire England's gameplan gets ruined.

    Southgate made the right decision IMO.
  9. Jul 4, 2018

    automaticflare Full Member

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    I would hold on to herrera but any of the others left I wouldn’t be bothered at all.
    Smalling should be first out the door for me
  10. Jul 4, 2018

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    It's not this black and white.

    Seedorf wasn't called up for the Netherlands for a relatively large part of his club career, but won CL's nonetheless.
  11. Jul 4, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Exactly!
  12. Jul 4, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Your argument is that players need adequate game time in order to be considered for their countries. Fellaini, whether due to injury or not, has not featured so much for utd, and can be considered a squad player. You could say the same for Rojo, to name another example. Both players with little game time for club, representing their countries in WC and both good enough for utd imv. Mata and Herrera are not even considered for Spain. Mata should have gone when Mourinho came to utd. (wasn't good enough for him at Chelsea so why good enough for us?) Herrera gives us more but still not at the level required for that key midfield role for utd, neither as a regular or squad player.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  13. Jul 4, 2018

    Alexit New Member

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    Perhaps the OP didn't word it properly but the point is a good one. Those who are alluding to Sane and so on are being unreasonable (lazy?).

    The fact of the matter is, your club should have a certain number of players who are a lock for their national side. Obviously other factors come into play like the national side we are referring to (France > Faroe Islands in this context), so the Young-Sandro example doesn't hold water (Brazil > England in this context). It is obvious that a player who starts for Country A might not be as good as someone who can't even make the team for Country B. But that is irrelevant if Country B's standard/level is higher: France-Faroe, England-Brazil. We would obviously pick Fred over Saudi Arabia's starting CM (or Henderson for that matter).

    Real Madrid's squad for their three UCL titles on the trot is a perfect example: Kroos, Modric, Marcelo, Ronaldo, Bale and on and on and on. It is why I feel we are still quite a ways off from getting back to the mountain top in Europe. Our core doesn't have enough quality (don't want to go the "world class" route) internationals: DDG, Pogba, Alexis. This is more of a thing now than during SAF's time.

    This logic is not saying that clubs should choose Young over Sandro or Ghoochannejhad over Sane. Or the point is not that we would take Herrera over Fellaini any day. The point is that, given the opportunity, we would take Isco, Iniesta, Busquets or Thiago over Mata any day. All day. The point is that the backbone, core, spine (call it what you wish) should be quality international starters who you can then surround with decent role/utility players.

    The core of a club side that wants to compete on the domestic and European front should be comprised of a solid core of players who standout on their international squad. International squads of a certain caliber of course.

    The OP is right.
  14. Jul 4, 2018

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    So the point is the club should have better players.
  15. Jul 4, 2018

    Marcky411 Full Member

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    True, due to the fact that Spain has more talent to choose from than nearly any other country. I think Spain will be the most difficult team to get in. You mention Herrera, last season a bench warmer, year before player of the year, this past season not good enough.
    Fellaini is also a plan B for Belgium when you need brawn and height in the box at the end of a game and you chasing a goal.
    It also boils down to playing time players get, if they are not playing regularly they are not considered for there national team or in the case of Lindelof and Rojo, there is little competition for their places.
    A good e.g is Sanchez been total crap but plays every game. Martial the best stats goals per minutes, sits on the bench and misses out on the French team, another team very difficult to get into due to the amount of talent France can choose from. Many national team coaches have come out and said the players have to play regularly to be considered.
    By your logic if a player doesn't play for his national team he isn't good enough for Utd. Lets use Blind as another e.g. considered not to be good enough, maybe as a squad player, yet plays every game for his national team, by your logic he would suffice for Utd. Some players are selected for their national team only to warm the bench there, so they would be considered good enough.
    Glad you are not in charge of team selection and transfers.
  16. Jul 4, 2018

    DSG New Member

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    I could give a feck whether our players are playing for their international sides. If they don't, less chance of getting injured and getting a much needed break from football.

    Making it a criteria as to whether they play football for their national side to either buy or sell a player for Utd is just bizarre. If they perform for their club side and make the national squad as a result of those performances (a la Kante for France, Rashford and Lingard for England), then so be it.

    If you want to use it as a measuring stick for quality at Utd, I suppose it may mean something. But there are too many cases where a player fits perfectly at Utd, but doesn't fit their national side.
  17. Jul 4, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Fellaini: good plan B for us too. That's why we've signed him up för another couple of seasons.

    Sanchez: class player having difficulties adapting to our system (who isn't?) To say he's been total crap is a ridiculous statement.

    If Giroud can get in amongst the talent then the least we can expect is that our own Martial gets a place. He's not there because he's not been getting game time under Mourinho because he isn't considered good enough to hold a permanent place. Looking at his performances I'm not one to argue with that. Putting my own personal view forward I think he runs into too many dead ends trying to achieve the impossible and loses the ball far too often.

    Happy to make somone glad!
  18. Jul 4, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Out of the current squad, which players are you referring to?
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  19. Jul 4, 2018

    Champ New Member

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    So Henderson should be signed at all costs, so should Jerome Boateng, so should Quaresma, so should Aspas, so should João Mario etc etc...none of whom are good enough for United...oh how about Chadli??
    The rationale of the OP is just plain daft, an international manager doesn't always pick the best players, they pick players based on their team philosophy and tactics.
    Look at Germany and Sane, France and Lacazette, Brazil and Fabinho, England and smalling....
  20. Jul 4, 2018

    Rozay Not good at posting fixture lists

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    Meanwhile #JLingz is a starter for England but I doubt many want him to start for us. There is some correlation in being an international and ‘United level’ of course, but nowhere near as rigid as implied.
  21. Jul 4, 2018

    limerickcitykid There once was a kid from Toronto...

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    Give over blaming Mourinho on Martial not getting picked. He played over 2300 minutes which is plenty and far more than Dembele who was picked. He just wasn't favoured by the French camp.
  22. Jul 4, 2018

    RedStarUnited Full Member

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    Well they haven't conceded a goal from Open play yet I think. And United suck at defending set piece, so I doubt Smalling would have kept those goals out.

    The England squad is finally built around an idea or philosophy instead of names/club stature. Smalling doesn't fit that idea so therefore he has no place in the team. Jose complains about our build up yet plays Smalling, he clearly worries more about defending than actually trying to take the game to the opponent.
  23. Jul 4, 2018

    whatwha Sniffs Erricksson’s diarrhea

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    Let's get rid of Fred. Not good enough to displace fecking Paulinho, boo.
  24. Jul 5, 2018

    Murray3007 Full Member

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    the penalty they conceded in the 1st game was from open play? pretty sure Belgium scored from open play and lets be fair Falcao should have scored a few, Walker looks a massive weak link in the side at the back, and to be honest they aint played anyone of real class, infact looking at the side's left only time they would actually play a top side is in the final.
  25. Jul 5, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    According to media we're interested in Shaqiri. Think we should go for him if it's not a silly price tag. Perfect squad player at least, and an INTERNATIONAL. Get rid of some of the surplus first!
  26. Jul 5, 2018

    Kemizee New Member

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    What good job if I may ask? Like renewing Fellaini's contract? There is no rumors of the wank players leaving except maybe Darmian. He is no longer ruthless and has settled for mediocrity himself.
  27. Jul 5, 2018

    SadlerMUFC Full Member

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    I see where you going with this, but I completely disagree. The players you are referring to for the most part, didn't make it to the world cup because they have been squad players here. Countries like Spain, France and England pick their team by selecting players who are in the first XI of the club team. If someone like Herrara was from a country that isn't ranked in the top 10 then perhaps that would be different...
  28. Jul 5, 2018

    Oldyella Full Member

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    A lot of those minutes were earlier in season though and his appearances slowed down, not good to get into a squad packed with talent. Not all Mourinhos of course.
  29. Jul 5, 2018

    limerickcitykid There once was a kid from Toronto...

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    And Dembele played even far less. Not Mourinho at all. He just isn't favoured by Deschamps who has plenty of options to choose from. Everything is always Mourinhos fault according to some though.
  30. Jul 5, 2018

    Minimalist Full Member

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    England's defence isn't good though? Just a choice by Southgate with a lack of pragmatism on his part.
  31. Jul 6, 2018

    Murray3007 Full Member

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    just out of interest, how would you say he's performed ?
  32. Jul 6, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    He's performed very well imo. Having said that he's playing in a system that lacks movement going forward. Because of the slow transition getting the ball out of defence, through the midfield and to our attacking players he's been frustrated, wanting to get involved and has dropped back far too deep, picking the ball up himself. Then when on the ball he's trying to make things happen (not just going for the side pass), but finds very few options. That's not his fault. In answer to your question he's been great for us and if we can get more movement throughout the team he'll be brilliant and the goals will come.
  33. Jul 6, 2018

    Murray3007 Full Member

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    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
  34. Jul 6, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Nice to see you agree!
  35. Jul 6, 2018

    shamans 1 set of sheets, optimistic about chances of sex

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    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    To just pick this part from your post... Sanchez has been garbage so far.
  36. Jul 6, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Fred's in the Brazilian squad. Why should we get rid of him?
  37. Jul 6, 2018

    simplyared Full Member

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    Why shouldn't he renew Fellaini's contract. A player who's just played a major roll for his country, who are now through to the WC semis, having beaten one of the top footballing nations on the planet.