Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Samid, Mar 28, 2019.
Ole literally said that he was involved in that. But whatever suits your agenda
Makes it even worse when he took 2.5 years to make us worse and not improve anything, they wanted more signings, blamed everyone except Jose, how board is not backing him. Now with Ole he didn't even sign single player, not had a preseason but somehow they expect from to fall in place.
Jose is a manager with a proven track record. So were Pep and Klopp. How is that difficult to understand for some?
Won EL, LC and got us to 2nd in two seasons before he got shunted in the Summer. Who did better? LvG? Moyes? Ole?
If we get Ole what you want and fails (which based on reputation and what we have seen from him so far is an easy prediction), then what? We will fall even more behind just so that we give the unqualified guy a chance?
I keep hearing how he'll bring his own players and change things around. Which star will come to a team in turmoil and nobody manager? Would Pogba be here if Ole was at the wheel?
Van Gaal won FA cup, finished 4th but more importantly left the club with better atmosphere. Everything with Jose is toxic, worst thing to happen to the club along with Woodward in the last 6-7 years. At least with Van Gaal there was something he tried to build, as much as he failed to do so because of targeting wrong players. With Jose, there was nothing.
We had Jose, we signed star players and we failed. So what? Whether Ole fails or reach top 4 is yet to be seen. At least going by the points gained in his tenure there is something to look forward to.
We don't need star players, something that fecked us up so badly. Which star players liverpool signed when they reached CL finals last season or when they reached top 4 before that? We don't need star players, we need players who suits the way managers wants to build his team.
Btw which player signs for a nobody manager? How many players signs because of manager and not because of clubs and wages? Only manager that have that pull is Pep, apart from that everyone signs for money and that includes Liverpool too who paid by far the highest money for agent fee (nearly double than second placed teams).
And then we have Hazard who rejected SAF to sign for managerless Chelesa. You are just looking everything from worst possible situation.
Except no one is talking about backing Jose in first 2 seasons. It was in third season when season was going downhill, everything was shit but somehow Jose still needed time and everyone was shit, everyone made mistakes but Jose was a "proven winner" who should be backed. To make the things worse, this was the team he built in 2.5 years. So people still gave excuses for the toxic man but somehow expect Ole to fix everything in 4 months when he didn't even sign a single player.
Jose achieved more than LvG I don't think you can question that. There was something to be build on - I mean we got to second yet we didn't back him up and his ideas, trying to get Varane? If Ole stays that means no different structure than the current one. Ole is not someone who will disrupt the status quo and is exactly the same mess we're in - Woodward calling the shots.
What were your expectations from Jose? Win the league? Let's get serious now. I'm not calling him a definite success, due to the end of his tenure, but how can you question the results, given what we had under Moyes and LvG is beyond me.
We need players that suit the manager - yet we heard everyone moaning about Perisic, Maguire, Alderweireld and Willian. And if Ole goes after couple of months,what we do with these players? Bin them?
Liverpool signed the best CB in the league - you know - 75m pounds for a defender. Also they have a manager who is ten times better than Ole. On the other hand we have rookie and a mess of a squad and we expect to make something out of it, just because we will support him?
Hazard joined the current CL winners at the time. We're very far off the top, combined with evidently being ran bad. A more experienced manager with credible resume always has a bigger pull. He has worked with tons of agents, star players, Ole has worked with Molde players, there is a bit of a difference no?
You keep looking at it too optimistically. If we don't want to fall behind even further we need to act now - get a proper structure and a proper manager. Otherwise you are looking at the same average crap we have witnessed the last 6 years.
Did we appoint Jose to finish 2nd or knowing what kind of manager he was, did we appoint him to win the league? He finished 19 points behind the leaders and he was around 18 points behind the league leaders before half of the season was over.
Expectations was to win the league, anyone who says any other answer is not giving honest answer. Everyone knows Jose is a short term manager and he failed to win the league. Jose is not the main to give proper structure or build teams for long term.
We signed the players manager wanted, he failed to show any progress ( you can keep talking about 2nd places, that's not a progress). There was 0 in game play, 0 in performance, cowardly performance and there was nothing he was building for long term. On top of that, his pathetic PC after Sevilla defeat and moaning about young players in preseason when most of the players were on holiday after break. Compare that to other managers who said how they are looking forward to work with young players, now we have this toxic man who says if he was a fan he wouldn't pay to see this team. That should help the young players confidence.
If one thing club did right, it was to sack him. If one thing they did wrong it was delaying it.
I don't understand why people only care about results. We are not some shit club, we are the biggest in the league. We shouldn't pick style or results. It should be results based on the style of play. End of Jose's time we had nothing anyways.
Liverpool signed defender for 75 million, they also signed one for just 4 million, LB for 8 million and promoted youth player for RB. They also spent around 90-100 million to build their attack, that something Jose spent on 1 player alone. We can't complain about spending, Klopp got the backing as board was convinced he was taking them to higher level and they were not wrong. ManUtd board were not convinced Jose is talking them to higher level, if anything he was making everything worse, so he was sacked. There is no comparison. If we had Klopp he would have been backed as it was easy to see he was building something and everyone from board to player were convinced about his ideas. On the other hand, we had Jose can't even convince his players to play his way.
Coming to Ole, yes I'm optimistic. Just like I gave everyone time before making judgement, I will give him enough time to judge him. Managers are not the pull. fecking Di Matteo wasn't a bigger pull than SAF, washed up Jose wasn't a bigger pull than Pep who built a team that was a winning machine. It's always the club and money. Only manager we can talk about pull is Pep. Forget all this, in most of the clubs managers don't even involve in signing players.
I have said it many times why I'm optimistic, I don't need to post the same things everyday and in every discussion.
Anyways, I just to hear from you, Jose always moaned about how hard other teams work and how he was in love with Robertson after Liverpool game as he worked all game. In 2.5 years what did he do to fix the fitness issues? We were in 20th position in 2016-17 and 2017-18 when it comes to distance covered and we are bottom this season too, so if he loves players who plays with intensity, why didn't he fix it in 2.5 years? Why didn't he sign players like that instead of Lukaku, Matic, Pogba who have near 0 intensity in their game?
when he gets you to CL 2 years in a row that is a progress compared to the three years before. We did appoint him to win the league and we did finish 2nd in his 2nd year, let's not rewrite history. He received no backing this Summer, so let's not put it all on him, shall we?
And Ole getting from 6th to 6th is progress? Playing same dross as when he came?
Same with Ole. If they don't sack him soon it's a mistake which Ed won't do to save face.
Because we aren't Everton or Arsenal. Results is what made Fergie great, not his style of football. Let's not forget how often he was criticized as well, despite being hugely successful.
United board gave him brand new contract before couple of months later not being convinced he's taking them to a higher level? When they figured that out? During preseason?
Again DI Matteo wasn't the pull. Winning that tiny competition CL might have had part for Hazard though. Klopp is a pull, Sarri is a pull, Pep is a pull, feck I'd argue Poch is a pull considering how they all play and what reputation they have. You are kidding yourself if you don't think that way.
Maybe because he wasn't allowed to sign players like that? Check Perisic, Willian stats when it comes to distance covered? He wanted Maguire, Toby, but they weren't shiny enough for Ed. How can you say he didn't want workhorses is beyond me, wasn't that one of the sticks that usually was given to beat him with?
So we appointed him to win the league, backed him signing all the players he wanted. He didn't win the league, showed 0 progress in style of play and performance. Somehow it's not a failure?
This is ridiculous and I hope you are much better than this. We ended up in 6th thanks to Jose and how far we were from 4th position. Since Ole took over he got 3rd most points.
Don't even think of comparing Fergie's football to Jose's. Fergie's worst brand of football is better than the best that Jose showed at ManUtd. Fergie's football wasn't good for his standards he set in 90s and mins 2000s. Not compared to Mourinho or others.
So nothing happened between preseason and Jose signing contract? Embarrasing defeat against Sevilla, even more embarrassing PC. Falling out with players and many more. It didn't happen in just a week. There was 6 months between 2.
Well I disagree with all of that. Only manager who has a pull is Pep.
Not sure if you are serious here. So there is no concept called coaching, improving fitness? Why did he sign Lukaku, Pogba, Matic then? Just google how Conte, Klopp, Pep improved players fitness with their double, triple session but for Lord Jose everything should be handed over to him in golden plate.
Jose took over the team that was 3rd or 4th in distance covered and brought them to 20th in distance covered. Even if Perisic or Willian were signed, it wouldn't have made difference thanks to Jose's set up. So tell me how exactly our team went from 3rd to 20th in distance covered? Did the players who worked hard under Van Gaal stopped working hard under Jose? Did all of them decide together and started to down tools?
And Ole was appointed permanently to get us from 6th till 6th? And give us the worst run in 50 years? What progress did you see in the last two games against relegated sides? You can pull whatever excuses for him, but not Jose?
So is it results or not? What is your criteria here? When Jose was sacked we were 11 points off top 4. We finished 5 points off top 4. Awesome progress in terms of results.
Wouldn't argue otherwise, but still Jose inherited a very bad team with little to no confidence. Losing the dressing room is on him, but we have shown flashes under him, can't deny that.
Then sack him after Sevilla.
we can agree to disagree, no problem there.
Again, you criticize him not getting work horses. All work horses we have been linked to were vetoed by Ed. He wanted Perisic the year before along with other workhorses.
Check Matic stats in terms of distance covered. I think he was 4th in the league individually.
fecking hell, we were 11 points behind 4th. Everyone even gave up the season but it was only because of very good run of form we were back in race. If you want to play the ridiculous game then Jose took us from 5th to 6th and to do that he spend nearly 400 million.
Now you started lying/twisting facts? We were 11 points behind 4th placed team. Yeah, that's a progress considering we got more points than anyone except 2. With Jose we were closer to Newcastle in 14th place than Chelsea who were in 4th.
So Jose inherited bad team with no confidence, spent 2.5 years with them and spent nearly 400 million, built his own team and still gets excuses. Ole inherited a bad team with very low on confidence, toxic atmosphere but somehow everything should have been fixed magically. This is without any preseason or money spent to fix the issues.
Well yeah, he should have been sacked after Sevilla. Woodward just lack balls to make tough decisions. For you it's not sacking Ole, for me it's sacking Jose very late
So he took 3rd placed team to 20th, perisic alone would have fixed that? There is no logic here. Our prepartion, fitness levels were shit and maybe it suited the shit football Jose was trying to play but it was far from the modern football requirements. Everyone is focusing on number of high intensity sprints, working on double, triple sessions to improve fitness and we have Jose who didn't do any of that and we are giving excuse of not signing 1 player.
Like I said, just google how much work Poch, Conte, Klopp did to improve fitness in preseason, compare that to Jose when we are the only team (Apparently) not to use GPS to track physical performance in training
@roonster09 I've edited my post, not twisting anything. Anyhow it seems that your mind is already set (so is mine). We can revisit our progress under Ole later this year - or lack of it.
But then again if you back Ole now you have zero right to complain in match threads about the way we play and when we underachieve. I keep seeing those who back him moan and moan in match threads.
As I've said you get what you wish.
What? I'm not getting what you are implying here.
I will back Ole and will continue to do so till he get enough time and sign few players. If we don't see progress then obviously I would say we should sack him and move on.
And lose another 1-2 years of rebuilding, due to making a late call which is pretty evident now, considering most would see he's out of his depth. In essence if he fails the moving on part would include being in a bigger mess than we're now.
Keeping him would also mean departing from the initial idea of having structure in place - hiring new DoF and new manager who the DoF will choose.
I agree your position is win win. You back him up and look good if it pans out good. If he fails, who cares right? We get a new one in back him up, etc.
1) Football management is a crapshoot - a manager could be great at a big club and flop at another - there are many variables that fans are not privy to, nor are they privy to the minutiae of management.
2) No-one ever achieves anything, until they do. Having a better CV does not guarantee better managerial performance at any given club. Do people actually think Poch, for instance, if he wins the CL, suddenly learned how to be a better manager in the few weeks leading up to the final. Of course not - his actual managerial ability is the same as it was previously, yet people will say he is now 'qualified'. Please.
3) What constitutes a better CV is different from what fans think. Given point 1) above - what makes people so certain that getting 80 points in the EPL with a club with the resources of Man Utd is a better performance than getting 40 with Huddersfield?
In short, give Ole a real shot. If you don't any new manager is going to want to do his evaluation of the players, meaning no clearout. Which means more redcafe chaos.
Ah, Jose and his army. How long that will be excuse for Ole? So far people who "support" Ole don't give answers on any serious questions about him. They just attack posters and mention Mourinho. Good old ad hominem argument. Backing or hating Jose doesn't have anything about Ole. It is completely different story. We are here talking about Ole and is he good choice or not.
But despite the fact that i think it is irrelevant, i will answer. Simple truth is that Jose was backed based on something. When he came, he came as one of the best in business. So by that, he earned backing in first season. He won 2 trophies. That earned him support for season 2. In season two it was mix of everything. Good and bad. He finished second, was in cup final, mood was not so good, general play was average, Sevilla game and press conference after that were disgrace so he had support for third season but general opinion was that he must fight for title in season 3 and show better football.
In season 3 he failed, lost support and was fired. Yes, we can talk about reasons what happened in that third season, someone will say that is all on him, someone will say that he has some excuses but at the end he deserved to be fired and i think that nobody is arguing that.
Based on what, anybody should think that Ole is good enough for this job? His CV? Reputation? Results? Our performances on the pitch? After these 5 months, thinking that Ole is good choice is only based on blind faith. Ok, i am fine with that. You think what you want but allow us, who use facts rather than emotions, to question that he can do something here.
I can understand people being pessimistic considering how we ended the season. Obviously the squad has weaknesses (of which OGS hasn't had an opportunity to resolve) and it requires careful scouting over the summer to ensure adequate replacements/additions are found. However, have people completely forgotten the impact he had when he first took over as caretaker?
Call it luck, a 'honeymoon' period, weak opposition or whatever you want. OGS broke our away record wins with eight consecutive games and achieved the highest points tally by any Premier League manager after nine games. The team had a bit of cohesion and flashes of attractive, one touch football before an injury crisis and poor individual performances crept in. I would say the change in training and emphasis on fitness contributed to injuries and the mental effects of an unstructured season hindered the players. To instantly label OGS out of his depth I think is quite naive.
For those calling for the sack or suggesting he's going to fail due to the last few months is premature. If you're only going to highlight the negative results then you're always going to have a negative outlook/mindset. We've seen that he can get the team performing and achieving good results, so the least he deserves is a crack next season with a full summer's analysis and a chance to operate with what will be a step toward his own squad.
I've been frustrated by the dross our football club has put out for the last six years. But feck me, 14 out of 19 wins is better than any manager has given us so far and had me excited about football again. Give him a chance to replicate that over the course of a full season. You never know.
I'm not gambling to look for win-win situation. I can say the same thing, if Ole fails you will be here gloating how you got it spot in, if Ole is a success then who cares as we all want ManUtd to win. it's a win-win for you too.
Btw, no matter who the manager DoF idea was binned long back. Ducker reported it was always a committee and technical director who will be appointed will be part of that. 1 person won't be calling shots at ManUtd.
Also in your opinion it's evident that he is out of depth but in many others he needs time to show what he capable of. Funny how few who think it's evident now were calling for his appointment few months back. It was evident for them back then and it's evident for them now too.
That's a lie, everything is posted which is ignored and end up in circles.
Except this is not about backing Jose in 2016 or 2017. It's backing Jose in 2019 when it was obvious he was failing here.
1) Overall results, obviously including when he was temp manager. It's a horrifying run of form, but it's wrong to disregard when the games when he was interim - it's not like thosr games where friendlies. But more importantly:
2) No manager is anywhere near a certainty to do well. Look at how many managers how theoretically been great appointments for clubs, before they struggle. As well as that, rookie + unheralded managers quite often do well - Marco Rose being one of a few. Football Management is a crapshoot, you do not know who is going to do well.
3) Having honours on your CV and being a good manager are at best, vaguely related, and noone ever achieves anything until they do. Do you think SAF suddenly learned to be a manager when he was at Aberdeen? Or Pep when he got promoted to the first team Barca manager? Or Klopp when he became Dortmund manager? Etc... Or, do you think they learned and developed their ideas through their training and in their early management years? The point being, that not having trophies does not mean you are a bad manager in any way - it often means you have not had the opportunity yet to be at a club with the resources to win trophies.
It’s The Sun, but if true, goes to show that everything in public is different to in private.
Says something like the boys played well in the press conference and then in private:
FURIOUS Ole Gunnar Solskjaer told his Manchester United flops he aims to get rid of HALF the team.
The United boss tore into his side after their humiliating 2-0 home defeat by relegated Cardiff on Sunday, saying they had embarrassed him, the club and the fans.
He cancelled a squad debriefing due on Monday and simply outlined the short- term future to them.
Solskjaer then said he was prepared to get rid of half the team if he had to because of their attitude.
I’m inclined to believe it too, especially since his (paraphrasing here) “I’m going to be a success here and some if those players wont be here”
Not really mate. If Ole fails, there's literally feck all to be gloating for as we will be in a bigger mess than we are before.
The reason why I'm more vocal about it is because we need to act now and make a proper structure sooner than later. When all goes to shit what's the point?
I want United to be successful and appoint the right man for the job.
So how it's a win-win for me? See we might have different opinions but end of the day we are ManUtd fans who wants the best for the club. If Ole fails, there is nothing win for me.
Just like you, I will just look forward to next appointment hoping he will bring something new and take us the next level.
Because you aren't on the negative side I'm on the negative, because I believe it's better for us in the long term, but in the short term sounds like I hate Ole and want him to fail - which is of course bollocks. Regardless if I'm right or wrong on this I'd still want us to buy good players in the Summer and win games come September. I'd gladly accept you to be right at the end and he goes on to become a success, but I really can't see it. I'm more practical in my views and rarely go emotional, and I don't see any practical reasons for the appointment.
Well I was on negative side when Jose was here (that was after giving 1.5 years though). In any case if Ole fails it's not a win-win for anyone.
So maybe for the next manager we will be on the same side.
Hopefully we won't need a new manager for long time.
Exactly, you never know. It'll always be a "what if" moment if we sack him now, not worth it imo.
I think even Ole himself is mad he got the job permanent at that time. It did no one any good. If he hadn't been offered the job at the time he was, Utd would never in a million years had gone on such a bad run of results in the end of the season.
Sorry, but Ed is the big, big problem here.
Why was he at Kristiansund - Molde tonight? Who was he scouting?
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How did we go from having Ole as a third/fourth choice striker to having first choice options not fit enough to lace his boots?
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It is not random so clubs are generally best served by using the predictive power of that non-randomness to their advantage.
This will go over a lot of people's heads unfortunately
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One and half minutes of van Persie speaking here. I think he sums it up quite well.
Any hopes of objectivity went down the toilet when he said Arsenal are close to a title bid!
In essence, appointing managers is just like you are buying lottery tickets - you either get a winner or you don't?
Feck research, feck credentials, just appoint your uncle and hope it sticks.
By chance, you could talk a lot of sense (apart from that Arsenal drivel) and still be subjective.
Probably one of our Europa League opponents
the excuses they come up with for appointing Ole.
Im living in Greece now, was talking to a mate who supports some shite Greek team, he said if they had appointed Ole there would have been mass rioting haha
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's formative years
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