Ole's United: Tactics and style 2019/20

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Bastian, May 18, 2019.

  1. May 18, 2019
    #1

    Bastian Full Member

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    Fitness and pace. This is what Ole has talked most about, in terms of what he wants. He hasn't talked about playing out from the back or short passing possession control, even though he's talked about controlling possession at times (like he did before we played Barca...). He wants his team to outrun its opponents and fight for every inch. Which is probably something most managers want in general. But what is the general setup?

    What Ole is demanding is pretty much what's been going on at Liverpool, plus they've got quality. They've got a front three where they all graft and two of them have loads of goals in them. Ole began with the 433 and the attacking trio of Martial-Rashford-Lingard did fairly well. But Martial is hardly the sort of player to fight for 90mins. And none of them is prolific in front of goal.

    We haven't got midfield two combination that is likely to dominate against other teams, so a strict 442 (with currently no wingers at the club) is quite unlikely.

    How would a player like Sancho (in the unlikely event we actually signed him this summer) but utilised? Would we go for a 4231 where the striker isn't too isolated being backed by a #10 (potentially Pogba) or would he effectively slot into Lingard's role as a right-sided attacker playing nearer the striker interchanging at times?

    Of course whether Pogba stays or goes has significant tactical bearings on what we can and cannot do.

    What do people think?
  2. May 18, 2019
    #2

    beergod Full Member

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    I think he's going to be let down by the suits and be stuck with too many players who can't/won't move the way he wants. We'll look good when players are fit, but will go to pieces when injuries take their toll.
  3. May 18, 2019
    #3

    Hoof The Ball Full Member

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    Ole doesn't seem the type to talk tactics. He's very coy in interviews about even talking about tactics in a general sense.

    We do need to be looking for more than superb physical attributes, since the top clubs have a combination of both fitness and technical standards, equally emphasised.
  4. May 18, 2019
    #4

    Bastian Full Member

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    I'm not sure about that. I think we'll spend loads of money. The biggest unknowns are how we'll replace our good players if they are sold and if the money we'd get for them would be reinvested on top of an actual transfer budget.

    But as the squad looks now, I'd assume he'd go back to the 433 he had in his honeymoon period, with Martial-Rashford-Lingard up top, but that midfield would be suspect and the defense even more so.

    Also, if people like Martial aren't giving their all, and Lingard not producing anything, he will have Greenwood, Gomes and Chong to introduce into the team. I don't doubt there'll be competition for places (in that part of the team). But I'm still none the wiser as to how he'll setup the team.
  5. May 18, 2019
    #5

    VidaRed Full Member

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    Our tactics should be as follows

  6. May 18, 2019
    #6

    LawCharltonBest Enjoys watching fox porn

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    I’ve watched Carlos Tevez in Red run from the left wing position to the right back position in a pre season friendly to win the ball back

    I’ve also watched Carlos Tevez in sky blue standing up front scratching his arse thinking about golf

    I don’t think you can necessarily buy hard working players. I think you have to be good enough to make them work hard
  7. May 18, 2019
    #7

    Red For Ever Full Member

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    I had forgotten how many Headers Yorke scored
  8. May 18, 2019
    #8

    AgentP Full Member

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    I wanted to make a thread on what's more important for a manager. Whether it's tactics or his ability to motivate the players. Ole definitely seems the type who gives more importance to the latter. Even Fergie, Jose, Zidane, Ancelloti, etc are better known for their man management than for their system. Pep and Klopp seem to have both whereas Sarri and maybe Tuchel and Emery focus more on their system.

    Under Ole, we have had few games where we completely overwhelmed the opposition (our initial few games) and also games where we sat back and beat teams on the counter. We'll know the full extent of his strategy next season after he gets time to work the team in pre-season. I'm expecting us to play similar to Spurs more than anyone else.
  9. May 18, 2019
    #9

    Tony Banta Full Member

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    I’ll think we’ll have a young side, the press seem to be linking us with a lot of under 23 British talent.

    Like you say, he wants a hardworking side that runs all day. I have no idea what style he will play, injuries took their toll from late February and we saw a complete contrast from how we played in mid December/January.

    This is what he said during a recent end of season interview with MUTV.

    What is the number one priority for you during pre-season?

    “We want to get everyone fit for when the season starts. We don’t want to lose anyone with injuries. But there are a certain set of principles to say ‘this is the way we want to play’ and we can agree on, and find a system we feel comfortable in and just go from there.”
  10. May 18, 2019
    #10

    Bastian Full Member

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    @VidaRed

    That was quite often a 442 if not always. With two prolific strikers (once SAF finally settled on Yorke and Cole) and an absolutely world class midfield, supported by a world class centre back in Stam, a world class GK, and top class professionals at full back and partnering CB (Ronny).

    @AgentP @LawCharltonBest
    Yes, man management, inspiring the players is of course enormously important. I'm not sure if he has that in his locker, maybe easier when it comes to young players if there isn't a pre-established faulty dynamic in the dressing room. But leaving that aside for a while, I'm curious as to what his actual tactical setup will be, and how he instructs the players to approach games more often than not. He's talked a lot about the United way and for the most part, I would expect him to try to be very positive in most games, occasionally being pragmatic against obviously better sides.

    I don't think it's a binary choice either, man-motivator or tactician. You need to be both really. And if you're not a tactician, that needs to be an expertise within your coaching staff. You can give players a certain amount of freedom when they are fully committed and complete professionals, otherwise it is quite likely to backfire. To have a team full of those is probably quite rare I'd guess.

    @Tony Banta
    Yeah this is interesting - finding a tactic that suits the players as opposed to having a clear idea of how he wants to play and building a team that can handle that. I suspect it's a bit of both, not least because we cannot just shift everyone and buy a whole new team. But I still wonder if he's got specific ideas other than outrunning the other team and showing more fight. I mean, there are two elite managers at the top of the league currently and they've both got very clear ideas on how they want their teams to play.
  11. May 18, 2019
    #11

    Big Ben Foster Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    Why stop at 20 years? If we're going to play outdated tactics, might as well go with a 2-5-3 or a W-M. At least it'll guarantee goals.
  12. Jun 19, 2019
    #12

    Bastian Full Member

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    I think this is a lot more interesting now that Pogba is likely off. And Lukaku.

    Ole can actually create a team that deploys width and pace and works hard all over the pitch with wingers, two strikers or an actual #10 and a functional midfield with a clearly defined role.

    I think those players leaving is a blessing, allowing for tactical flexibility. Still need to recruit in a lot of positions.
  13. Jun 19, 2019
    #13

    Grande Full Member

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    Like Klopp, he isn’t that concerned if we run the most, as long as we sprint the most. He’s also a work ethic buff and more concerned with positive psychology than our three previous managers.

    He is known to be a very good motivator/man-manager, and when it comes to tactics, he is tactically very astute, but perhaps better on pragmatic tactics than strategic tactics (more Mourinho, Ferguson and Ancelotti than Van Gaal, Pep and Klopp.) He has steadily developped a playing style based on speedy and technical players alternating high and low press, and seeking direct route first, possession second.

    The fantastic period from december to february, he probably showed brilliant motivational man- and group-management and good strategical tactics.

    When players and play fell apart from march to may, it was clear he had a group of players not suited to his strategical aims, and with extremely vulnerable confidence (like Van Gaal and Mourinho also pointed out). So his motivational work fell through, his main strategy didn’t work but his pragmatic tactics to accomodate for that where often spot on: Like we saw, we would often start of well, even against Barca, or do better after a sub/change, but then things deteriorated gradually or if we let in a cheap goal/missed a few sitters.
  14. Jun 19, 2019
    #14

    Thiagoal Full Member

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    I've no idea what style Ole wants us to play tbh! I thought it was fast paced and pressing yet we then re-sign our slowest immobile attacker on a long term deal?
  15. Jul 9, 2019
    #15

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

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    I think fitness and pace is the foundation to everything. When you're tired - and it was evident that we tired a lot the second half of games, we get sloppy, not only on the ball, but off the ball too. That led to misplaced passes, defensive lapses, non-existent pressing, etc.

    Going forward, if we do that, and as you said, it's something Ole is working on a lot in training, then we can work on tactics.

    Not too sure who's seen the film 'Coach Carter', but as soon as he takes over the basketball team, he recongnises that the players have talent, but they're losing games due to their lack of fitness.

    I believe we fell off because we got tired after a few games of intense work. If we're able to press for most of the game like the City's and Liverpool's of this world then, although we need to add more quality, we will start grinding out more wins, in my opinon.

    As far as tactics got, I'd go with a 4222, which Ole has experimented with, more notably against PSG and Arsenal.

    Rashford Yedder
    Fernandes Matic Fred Lingard
    Shaw Maguire Lindelof Wan-Bissaka
    De Gea
  16. Jul 9, 2019
    #16

    M16Red Full Member

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    Sadly you can't play this with inverted wingers, I'm not a fan of inverted wingers unless there are interchangeable.
  17. Jul 9, 2019
    #17

    passing-wind Full Member

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    It's a lose lose situation, supposedly some fans will say Ole didn't have enough time and his own players to implement a style. The current make up of the team is consistent of failures and weak minded individuals that was the concensus at the end of last season.

    Despite finishing the league with relegation form, we will have exactly the same spine of players next season. Personally I don't see how Solskjaer can implement any changes to the dynamics of play with exactly the same squad. Our midfield was already below required quality last season with Herrera, Pogba, Matic, It's pretty much a guarantee that we are going into next season worse off in this area. Mata is a year older and Lingard is incapable of improving so our right wing options are additionally worse off.

    I reckon we will be forced to surrender possession to the opposition (similar to the seasons end) and play one dimensional counter attacking system.
  18. Jul 10, 2019
    #18

    Saf94 Full Member

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    It’s very simple. You can’t play attacking football when you defend super deep. You can’t play a high line without defenders comfortable bringing the ball out and leaving space behind. We sign a cb and an rb, we play a high line, we dominate possession and we attack with more thrust because we aren’t so tired from having to run all the way up and down the pitch to defend the edge of our box.

    That’s literally the simplest explanation for how we can transform this team with minimal signings. There’s 100 other ways to do it too. If you can’t see any possible way we improve with the same spine then you’re just not trying
  19. Jul 10, 2019
    #19

    Stobzilla Official Team Perv

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    2 years with a team option for a 3rd is long term ?
  20. Jul 10, 2019
    #20

    Rhyme Animal Modmins said "freeze" and I got numb

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    The thing with fitness and 'running', is the players have to know they're dealing with a top coach - Klopp, Guardiola, Pochettino can inspire work-rate because their players know that they're very good managers.

    They have a footballing brand and tactical approach that is more than just 'running a lot' - and so, the players become inspired and naturally 'run a lot' in order to fulfill the tactics that are enjoyable for them to play within.

    If the tactics and coaching are below what they've experienced before - as they will be for most of the players in the Utd first 11 - I think it becomes very difficult to inspire that work-rate throughout a season.

    And I don't think that's the players being lazy - I just think it's human nature.

    I think, to be honest, that Ole's most comfortable in the PL playing counter-attacking footy, and I think that's what we'll see more and more of during his time as Utd manager.
  21. Jul 10, 2019
    #21

    Gasolin Full Member

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    Then you are wrong for me, the first games clearly showed how Ole wanted to play + again, I don't know why this is so hard, it's easy to check how his teams at Molde were playing when he took them over. There are tons of people who have analyzed how Ole sets up a team, so for me, his tactical side is rather clear. And he's not a counter attacking side only guy.
  22. Jul 10, 2019
    #22

    SadlerMUFC Full Member

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    A right footer on the right wing and a left footer on the left wing...imagine that
  23. Jul 10, 2019
    #23

    AJ10 Full Member

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    Its easier to make stuff up.
  24. Jul 10, 2019
    #24

    Gasolin Full Member

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    So for you all those people are just lying? Even when they use games footage to showcase their analysis?
  25. Jul 10, 2019
    #25

    DSG Full Member

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    He’s clearly buying for pace, all around the pitch.

    It really depends on who we finally sign this summer and who leaves.

    If I had to bet, I would guess (like everyone else in football) that he wants to transition the team to a high press 4-3-3 which morphs into a 4-1-4-1 in our defensive half. Not easy when you consider we have three slow midfielders (Matic, McTominay, Pogba - good pace but not “quick”) and one of the laziest wingers I’ve ever seen in Martial. I suppose Fred and Andreas are options, but recent form indicates they aren’t much more than squad players.

    In this system, he’ll need high work rate and a lot of cover from the wingers and striker.

    If we actually close on Fernandes, I see him replacing Matic in the midfield 3 with McTominay sliding into Matic’s spot. Matic looked slow and old and ready for Serie A.

    We are miles away from actually getting all the players necessary to play this style, so unless Tuanzebe and Greenwood can step up, it’s going to be a bumpy season.
  26. Jul 10, 2019
    #26

    romufc Full Member

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    Totally agree, the squad is not suited to what Ole wants to play. Playing pressing football means you need quick CB's.

    I am not looking forward to this season, same as last year in my eyes.
  27. Jul 10, 2019
    #27

    Jordan_mufc New Member

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    Tbh I think the critics of his tactical nous are forgetting some of our best performances last season.

    Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham away. To an extent, PSG away (there were periods in that game where we were in complete control, PSG on the back foot)

    The man knows what he's doing. Time to let him shine.
  28. Jul 10, 2019
    #28

    DSG Full Member

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    I agree with this, in general. In fact, during his blistering run of form, the pundits all hailed his tactical nous.

    People keep talking about wingers (which is true), but in a high press 4-3-3, you need three midfielders that cover lots of ground, and very quickly. Jose preferred power and strength in those midfield 3, so he could sit deep and soak up pressure, pack the middle of the pitch, then hit on the counter.

    Once the high press is broken by the opposition, the front three basically fall back, the back line defenders play a high line to compress the space, allowing those three quick midfielders to win balls in tight spaces (a poor trap, a less than perfect pass) whenever the opposing side tries to break the lines. We really only have one CB that can play a high line, Lindelof. Bailly is fast, but too accident prone.

    The reason I say it will take time to convert the side is that he has potentially 2-3 CMs to buy, a CB and you could argue another winger or two. Our midfield just isn't built to play this way.

    I have faith in Ole. But I do think it will take 2-3 transfer windows to get the players we need. Patience.
  29. Jul 10, 2019
    #29

    dove Full Member

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    We always looked like this, from the first minute. If we were good in the first half but started to struggle in the second half, I would agree it's because of fitness issues. But seeing how we struggle from the first minute, I think it's tactics combined with some crap players more than anything.
  30. Jul 10, 2019
    #30

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    I think he was rather agreeing with you ;)

    We're yet to see how we will set up and what the approach would be. United and Premiership is whole different kettle compared to Molde.

    Key to being successful considering we don't have the best team in the league is to flexible and mesh his approach against bottom half sides and the top dogs.

    We're miles off trying to establish a common approach against all teams ala Liverpool and City.
  31. Jul 10, 2019
    #31

    Adcuth Full Member

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    Prefer this
  32. Jul 10, 2019
    #32

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

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  33. Jul 11, 2019
    #33

    Lee565 Full Member

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    Considering how awful our wing options are and how woeful we have been in the transfer window with little faith in the club to make any real quality signings to fit into the first team aside from maybe a cb, I hope we now keep lukaku and pogba because of the lack of quality that will replace them.

    352 in attack

    ------rashford--lukaku
    ---------------pogba
    Shaw---fred---mctominay--dalot
    ------new cb---lindelof---awb
    (Hopefully)

    442 defend
    -------rashford--lukaku
    Fred--pogba--mctominay-dalot
    Shaw--new cb--lindelof--awb
  34. Jul 11, 2019
    #34

    Rifer Full Member

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    So far it's just speculation. Putting it aside...
    Soon we'll know -- the first pre-season game, about 1-2 days left, timezones applied.

    Most likely the first indication how Ole really really really set-up his tactics and style.
    I wouldn't put much hope into it 100% though since everything can change at the season start.
  35. Jul 11, 2019
    #35

    Rozay Master of Hindsight

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    We can’t be a high pressing team with Matic and Pogba in the midfield. We need to pair Pogba with two runners for that to work.
  36. Jul 11, 2019
    #36

    Krisbijoy New Member

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    Was just about to say this , all these formations would be overrun in midfield by pacy opposition AMs if we have Matic in the holding role. The ball playing CBs will be quickly exposed and be busy dealing with this while the attackers will get a free run behind the last line as our FBs also bomb forward. The only way that works is if we have a destroyer protecting the back four so that the likes of Pogba/Bruno etc can have a the space/freedom to operate in.