1. We are delighted to have been nominated for Best Forum in The Football Blogging Awards. You can vote for us on their website here and via twitter here. You can read the caf thread here. Thanks to anyone who votes for us.
    Dismiss Notice

Other team benchmarks

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by RedTillI'mDead, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. Jan 9, 2018
    #1

    RedTillI'mDead A Key Tool

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,204
    Location:
    London
    I thought it would be interesting to discuss where we stand versus other top teams and how many and what types of signings would we need to break through each barrier.

    I’m sure everyone will argue standings, it’s hard to compare a Napoli vs Bayern for example.

    Athletico Madrid are close to us, as are Chelsea. I’ve intentionally put Chelsea ahead of us as I think Hazard is a key differentiator.

    1. Barcelona
    2. Real Madrid (amazingly off form at mo, on form I think they are ahead of Barcelona in quality)
    3. PSG
    4. Manchester City
    5. Juventus
    6. Napoli
    7. Bayern Munich
    8. Chelsea
    9. Manchester United

    So looking at 4 teams ahead of us, I think one world class skilful player could take us ahead of all of them. By this I mean a Hazard, Ronaldo, Messi, Bale (if can stay uninjured, Mbappe, etc. Problem is only injured Bale is at most a faint and relatively short term fix anyway.

    Alternative ways to get ahead is maybe some quality width with a winger and wing back of very good standard.

    As soon as we get to top 4 I think these are all essentially out of reach. I think between them they have most of the top players in the world and the best of the rest would either be impossible to get like Hazard or just not good enough.

    Where we do have potential is if Shaw, Rashford and Martial reach their full potential and Lingard and Lukaku add to a limited skill set then we have a decent framework. We would still probably need another world class midfielder to replace Herrera and a rightback to replace/ swap with Valencia.

    I would say all of the above needs to happen to even think about a stab at the top 4 and certainly the top 3.

    Any one else see things differently?

    Based on this view I also think United need to be planning 5-8 years ahead. Keep ticking along in Champions League and cups for now, but the real targeting should be on longer term money, otherwise I fear we could waste a lot to at most maybe reach another round in the Champions League or maintain 2nd, rather than 3rd/4th in Prem.

    We need to be snapping up the best aged 16-20 range of players with a view to future dominance. I just can’t see us finding the probably £600m-£1bn that it would otherwise take to pick up enough stars to take over these other teams.
  2. Jan 9, 2018
    #2

    Infordin Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,643
    Supports:
    Barcelona
    On current form

    1. Barcelona
    2. Manchester City
    3. PSG
    4. Bayern Munich
    5. Juventus
    6. Real Madrid
    7. Napoli
    8. Manchester United
    9. Chelsea
    10. Roma

    If we are talking about odds to win the UCL, then Real jump up to 2nd. They have a winning mentality and a team of game-raisers on the big occasion.
  3. Jan 9, 2018
    #3

    SS Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2016
    Messages:
    3,072
    Why are Napoli so high?
  4. Jan 9, 2018
    #4

    Macern Pee pee pants

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Messages:
    11,461
    Location:
    Oslo
    1. Manchester City
    2. PSG
    3. Barcelona
    4. Real Madrid
    5. Juventus
    6. Bayern
    7. Liverpool
    8. Manchester United
    9. Chelsea
    10. Napoli
  5. Jan 9, 2018
    #5

    deafepl Full Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    2,645
    I'm sure most bookies have United as 6th ahead of Napoli and Juventus at the first.
  6. Jan 9, 2018
    #6

    deafepl Full Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    2,645
    1. Barcelona
    2. PSG
    3. Bayern Munich
    4. Manchester City
    5. Real Madrid
    6. Manchester United
    8. Juventus
    9. Chelsea
    10. Tottenham Hotspurs
  7. Jan 9, 2018
    #7

    SalfordRed18 Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5,457
    Location:
    Salford
    Lol jk?
  8. Jan 9, 2018
    #8

    Infordin Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,643
    Supports:
    Barcelona
    I would back Juventus over United in a two-legged tie, personally.

    It would be close but I reckon Juventus would nick it.
  9. Jan 9, 2018
    #9

    Macern Pee pee pants

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Messages:
    11,461
    Location:
    Oslo
    What? 5-10 is incredibly tight in that list imo. Swapped them around quite a bit before agreeing with myself.
  10. Jan 9, 2018
    #10

    deafepl Full Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    2,645
    Yeah, it would be close. United and Juventus have similar playstyle. Given United's pace, physical and powers, I think United would win in battle :lol:
  11. Jan 9, 2018
    #11

    Billy Blaggs Flacco of the Blaggs tribe

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2000
    Messages:
    22,631
    Location:
    Accidental founder of Blaggstianity.
    I'd bet on the opposite
  12. Jan 9, 2018
    #12

    SalfordRed18 Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5,457
    Location:
    Salford
    You've put Liverpool over united and Chelsea, they literally have no mandate to be so high.
  13. Jan 9, 2018
    #13

    Hawks2008 Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    Messages:
    2,684
    Location:
    Melbz
    Just one of those teams that are hipster darlings and overrated to the moon.
  14. Jan 9, 2018
    #14

    Macern Pee pee pants

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Messages:
    11,461
    Location:
    Oslo
    Why not? They're two points behind Chelsea and three behind United. I think Van Dijk is a massive signing for them, and if they spend the rest of the Coutinho money well I can easily see them finish 2nd.
  15. Jan 9, 2018
    #15

    Jib Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,545
    1. Barca
    2. Real Madrid
    3. PSG
    4. Manchester City
    5. Bayern
    6. Manchester United
    7. Juventus
    8. Chelsea
    9. Napoli
    10. Atletico Madrid.
  16. Jan 9, 2018
    #16

    Macern Pee pee pants

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Messages:
    11,461
    Location:
    Oslo
    Bayern above PSG and City? Wow

    Edit: nice edit ;)
  17. Jan 9, 2018
    #17

    deafepl Full Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    2,645
    I can't see Liverpool finishing 2nd and Chelsea possibly. United had a dip in form. 3 weeks ago, United was ahead of Liverpool by 7 so United sorted their shit out and return to winning way.

    United have a lot of injuries this season and Liverpool is one of the clubs that suffered fewer injuries this season.

    Bring Van Dijk to Liverpool won't improve Liverpool dramatically overnight.
  18. Jan 9, 2018
    #18

    Infordin Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,643
    Supports:
    Barcelona
    Fair enough. ;)

    I think it would be a scrappy game that will be won by the team who makes less mistakes. I would bet on Juventus for that. They are the best at winning ugly.

    About the CL odds, I remember how PSG went from being favourites to third favourite as soon as they drew Real in the Ro16. Juventus got a tougher opponent than United, which is probably why the bookies moved United ahead.

    I think that if United drew Juventus in the quarter final, United would go into that game as the underdog.

    Also, Bayern are being underrated.
  19. Jan 9, 2018
    #19

    DdeGoat Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    468
    Top Tier:

    (1) Barcelona
    (2) City
    (3) PSG

    Second Tier:

    (4) Bayern Munich
    (5) Real Madrid

    Third tier:

    (6) Chelsea
    (7) Juventus
    (8) Manchester United
    (9) Liverpool

    I think there is little difference between the teams with in a tier. But there is a larger gap between each tier.
  20. Jan 9, 2018
    #20

    el3mel Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2016
    Messages:
    24,705
    Location:
    Egypt
    PSG
    Barca
    City
    Juve
    Napoli
    Bayern
    United
    Madrid
    Chelsea

    According to this season only.
  21. Jan 9, 2018
    #21

    RedTillI'mDead A Key Tool

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,204
    Location:
    London
    You might be right, but similar to approach with Chelsea I’ve put behind to ensure we say what is required to make no doubt of getting ahead of them. Napoli is top of the Italian league and flying alongside Juve.
  22. Jan 9, 2018
    #22

    RedTillI'mDead A Key Tool

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,204
    Location:
    London
    To be honest I just took a view at the league standings, point per game, goal difference. Had a scan of CL tables where relevant, e.g. Monaco 4th in their group was a good reminder they aren’t what they were a couple of seasons ago.

    Napoli are top of Italian league, just ahead Juve and are free scoring. I also remembered all the Italian teams that made the CL are in the knock out so the league is not as weak as it was. It’s just a view and I’m less fussed about the standings and more what it takes for us to get ahead of everyone so in the first few teams like these it’s not much, in the top 4 it’s suddenly a massive jump of talent required.
  23. Jan 9, 2018
    #23

    RedTillI'mDead A Key Tool

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,204
    Location:
    London
    Just 2 years ago I asked what players from United would make the Madrid team that won the CL and it was pretty much just De Gea, so on that basis Madrid are surely top tier even if having a shocker of a season. Or is your thinking BBC aren’t what they are, a few stars are reaching latter stage of career and actually this is in absence of investment a permanent reduction in status?
  24. Jan 9, 2018
    #24

    DdeGoat Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    468
    Exactly that. However, they still have some brilliant players and can go back in the top tier with a couple of big signings. e.g. add Neymar and De Gea to the team in place of Bale and Navas, and they would be balling again.
  25. Jan 9, 2018
    #25

    RedTillI'mDead A Key Tool

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5,204
    Location:
    London
    It’s interesting because they do have a serious amount of young talent, so the framework is good, but no team these days can be the top without a few stars. It’s like the top say 5-10 players are as good as 2 or 3 other players combined so give you such a big advantage that without them it’s an uphill battle.

    And by the type of player I’m thinking those that score out of nothing or create out of nothing. Messi, Ronaldo, Sanchez, De Bruyne, Silva, Bale, Salah. The later is a generous addition, but he does have quality in his movement on the ball and close control.

    There is another tier that are masters in their area of the field but maybe not as stand out on their own, I.e. need the right supporting cast. Lukaku is one of these, Kane I can’t decide if he is top tier or comes under the need for a supporting cast. Pogba needs a supporting cast as doesn’t score enough or make lots of unmissable opportunities, but does help overall control but this is different to the top tier.

    It’s interesting because United arguably have three potentials for the top tier in Rashford, Martial and Lingard. Many will laugh at the latter, but Lingard has shown the ability to make something from nothing with brilliant individual goals and we are seeing a patch of consistency, but that has to continue all season to really be shouted about.

    Rashford is having a mixed season, but it would be crazy to ignore the potential.

    If only all our players with potential can reach their peaks at the right time. As others have alluded to, the right run of form and momentum breeds confidence and we’ve had enough games with 4 goals to suggest we are on a fine balance between potential top dogs and just a bit too average. Most of this is dictated by a lot of players with potential and maybe a lack of peak stars. Who do we have who is at peak?
  26. Jan 9, 2018
    #26

    SalfordRed18 Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5,457
    Location:
    Salford
    So, they're behind 3 other English teams, they've just lost they're best player, they signed a CB that's played 60 odd times in a top league and barely played this season, and haven't actually replaced their best player yet. They've finished 2nd I think about once or twice the last decade, and despite all that you think they're the 7th best team in the world and will finish 2nd in the league?

    Each to their own, but I wouldn't put money on that.
  27. Jan 9, 2018
    #27

    Macern Pee pee pants

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Messages:
    11,461
    Location:
    Oslo
    They lost their best player and will most likely replace him. They also paid around 75 million for a top class defender which should give them much more balance. Their form is really good and it looks like they will overtake both Chelsea and United.
  28. Jan 9, 2018
    #28

    SalfordRed18 Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5,457
    Location:
    Salford
    Your reasons for putting them so high is based off if and maybes. In the actual world, here and now, they are nowhere near 7th in the world.
  29. Jan 9, 2018
    #29

    Macern Pee pee pants

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Messages:
    11,461
    Location:
    Oslo
    They’ve won their last 4 games, haven’t lost in 17 games and they’ve averaged 3 goals a game in that period. They’ve now arguably improved their team and is looking at making further reinforcements. Yes, in the actual world here and now they’re at least close to the 7nd best team in the world.
  30. Jan 9, 2018
    #30

    SalfordRed18 Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5,457
    Location:
    Salford
    Are you a Liverpool fan? Because only a Liverpool fan would believe that somehow losing their best player in January has made them better VDV or not.

    Think you're in a solid minority here.
  31. Jan 9, 2018
    #31

    deafepl Full Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    2,645
    Bookies didn't move United ahead when Juventus get tough opponents cos they are already ahead of Juventus, only City jumped to be favourite for titles from 5th at start before the league begin

    Any injuries, a suspension can happen before United drawing Juventus, I think it would be odd 50/50. It's more like that Juventus or United visiting will be considered as an underdog.
  32. Jan 9, 2018
    #32

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

    Joined:
    May 16, 2009
    Messages:
    26,802
    Not sure why we're better than Juve when they've been pretty awesome in past few seasons in CL. Yes they weakened post Tevez and losing Bonucci.. but they still have a world class left back, solid CB's, some very experienced european class midfielders, top 10 player in SS and a european level CF. If we were to play our best 3-5-2 vs theirs, it wouldn't massively be in their favour but their experience in CL, their more sophisticated way of playing and champion mentality would probably place them as favourites.
  33. Jan 9, 2018
    #33

    Macern Pee pee pants

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Messages:
    11,461
    Location:
    Oslo
    Nope. I don’t think one can say that they have lost a player of a certain level and bought a player below that level and therefore they’ve regressed. Football doesn’t work like that. Their defence was a catastrophy and they’ve now made what I believe is a huge improvement to that. The team is a lot more balanced and they’re in great form which is why I think that they’re just a tiny bit ahead of Chelsea and Man Utd right now.
  34. Jan 9, 2018
    #34

    Bobski Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,869
    Napoli were knocked out in the group stage of the CL. Yes they had City but ended up losing 4 of 6 games with the other 2 teams being Shatkar and Feyenoord.

    It is an odd time in Europe, some of the teams who have been elite in recent years have questions over them, Real and Bayern have the issue of key players getting up there in age, Juve do not have the quality in midfield of recent years. Barca are in a good place but I do not think they are a match for their best teams of the last few years.

    Barca
    PSG
    City-with both PSG and City having to prove their domestic dominance can translate to Europe.

    Real-If fit and motivated they still have the counter attacking threat to hurt anyone
    Bayern
    Juve

    Chelsea
    Utd

    Liverpool
    Roma
  35. Jan 9, 2018
    #35

    bosnian_red Worst scout to ever exist

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2011
    Messages:
    34,613
    Location:
    Canada
    First Tier:
    • Barcelona
    • Manchester City
    • PSG
    Second Tier:
    • Bayern Munich (were a tiny bit lower with Ancelotti, but with Heynckes probably push the first tier)
    • Real Madrid (start of a few transition years for them because of Ronaldo aging)
    • Juventus
    Third Tier:
    • Chelsea
    • Manchester United
    • Napoli
    • Atletico Madrid
    • Tottenham
    • Liverpool
    • Arsenal (until they lose Sanchez and Ozil)
    • Borussia Dortmund
    Something like that. If we signed someone like Dybala, we'd go to the 2nd tier. Or just Martial take the step up to a world class player, and Rashford become way more consistent and develop more, Shaw to develop more, etc.. Need a lot less question marks over every position.

    For first tier, we need Pogba, Martial, Rashford and Shaw to all reach their full potential, us to change towards a more dominating style of football, us to also sign someone like Dybala and add more creativity in the middle like Isco to play next to Pogba and in front of Matic, and leave the more limited players technically as squad players so our front 3 has both the Martial and Rashford we hope they become, along with a talent like Dybala. So the main difference between tier 2 and 1 for us would be to get both of the hypotheticals in at once.

    As it is with the style we play now, and players we have, think we're limited to tier 2 max, which is fine. Fergie only had us as tier 1 level between 1999-2001 and 2007-2009.
  36. Jan 9, 2018
    #36

    Eire Red United Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2016
    Messages:
    1,832
    Location:
    Ireland
    Liverpool?
  37. Jan 9, 2018
    #37

    Infordin Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,643
    Supports:
    Barcelona
    To be honest, I think that if United played Liverpool tomorrow on a neutral ground, there would be no favorite. In the three games between Mourinho's United and Klopp's Liverpool, all have been draws. That's fairly representative, two teams with vastly different strengths and weaknesses who are evenly matched overall.

    United are better at not losing leads against average teams, which puts them higher overall.